How liberty ends?

[EyeBRollin]

ETA: If I break down on the side of the highway in Big City, USA, at 2 am and a car load of thugs roll up behind me, I am dead. Unless I have a gun. And in that case, I guess @EyeBRollin would prefer I do nothing, just give up my stuff, because by dang, I owe it to the thugs. That's his mindset. It's like cancer.

Fanatical for several reasons:

1) Why would you drive through a dangerous neighborhood at 2 am in big city USA in a car susceptible to breakdown?

2) “Thugs” want nothing to do with an older middle/upper class (probably white) dude not from their neighborhood. Gang violence is more about territory and trafficking. Has nothing to do with you.

3) Worst case scenario they take your wallet / possessions. In “survival of the fittest” as you say, you’d be a fool to fight outnumbered.

But what if, instead, they get out and approach me, and I fire off some shots, and they drive off, but one of them gets hit and dies. Isn't the world a better place at that point? And wouldn't the rest of them think twice about robbing somebody next time?

No, it just sounds like a vigilante fetish.

 

[speed dawg]

1) Why would you drive through a dangerous neighborhood at 2 am in big city USA in a car susceptible to breakdown?

If you haven't figured it out yet, this actually happened. I was on the interstate.

2) “Thugs” want nothing to do with an older middle/upper class (probably white) dude not from their neighborhood. Gang violence is more about territory and trafficking. Has nothing to do with you.

I was 21 when that happened. And they were sure enough about to rob us. The only thing that stopped it was an emergency vehicle pulling up (that we called), and the thugs sped off.

3) Worst case scenario they take your wallet / possessions. In “survival of the fittest” as you say, you’d be a fool to fight outnumbered.

Ha, "worst case"?? Worst case is they kill your ass. And nobody is choosing to fight in that spot, the thugs force your hand. Kill or be killed.

 

[EyeBRollin]

If you haven't figured it out yet, this actually happened. I was on the interstate.


I was 21 when that happened. And they were sure enough about to rob us. The only thing that stopped it was an emergency vehicle pulling up (that we called), and the thugs sped off.


Ha, "worst case"?? Worst case is they kill your ass. And nobody is choosing to fight in that spot, the thugs force your hand. Kill or be killed.

This is fanatical. The amount of middle/upper class white guys breaking down in the middle of the hood at 2 am is infinitesimal. That was extremely poor discretion on your part.

 

[HaleyBaron]

This is fanatical. The amount of middle/upper class white guys breaking down in the middle of the hood at 2 am is infinitesimal. That was extremely poor discretion on your part.

I saw a story of a couple going from Carolina to the northeast coast. As they're going through Pennsylvania, a random black guy who felt like he got cut off, drove to the side and fired off gunshots into this surburban white couple's vehicle, leaving the husband with a dead wife. There are many other instances of this nature that happen daily. Your world is very limited and without experience. If I could, I would force you to do a walk through America with nothing but backpack to make you see the world for what it really is.

 

[Plinco]

Unfortunately people confuse personal freedoms with societal freedoms.

Your personal freedoms MUST always fit inside societal freedoms and when societal freedoms change your personal freedoms change, like it or not. That's called being an adult and being a responsible member of society. Realizing it's not always about you. People struggle mightily with that these days. Everything always has to be about them.

The alternative is to refuse to be a responsible member of society and then go live on your own somewhere else

What you don't get to do is try and not be a responsible member of society and then still reap the benefits of the others who are.

Either you have freedom or you don't. Metaphysically there's no such thing as 'societal freedom'

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Either you have freedom or you don't. Metaphysically there's no such thing as 'societal freedom'

Then nobody has freedom because where can you go murder someone outside of the military and not go to jail for it?

 

[EyeBRollin]

I saw a story of a couple going from Carolina to the northeast coast. As they're going through Pennsylvania, a random black guy who felt like he got cut off, drove to the side and fired off gunshots into this surburban white couple's vehicle, leaving the husband with a dead wife.

There are many other instances of this nature that happen daily. Your world is very limited and without experience. If I could, I would force you to do a walk through America with nothing but backpack to make you see the world for what it really is.

That sounds like Pennsylvania. My work has taken me to 47 states in the past decade. I’ve seen the richest and the poorest of the USA.

In your conceptualized world, that suburban couple pulled out their own gun and a glorious firefight ensued.

 

[HaleyBaron]

That sounds like Pennsylvania. My work has taken me to 47 states in the past decade. I’ve seen the richest and the poorest of the USA.

In your conceptualized world, that suburban couple pulled out their own gun and a glorious firefight ensued.

No, that's what happened in the real world to a couple that gave little caution for the culture there and paid the price. Which is what speed dawg was trying to get at you about. Things happen, and often even having a gun doesn't stop it. But having a gun is the concept of personal responsibility and not being naive.

 

[Plinco]

Then nobody has freedom because where can you go murder someone outside of the military and not go to jail for it?

Proper legislation is a reflection on objective ethics. What is objective ethics? It is defined by logic (because logical reasoning is the cognitive method of identifying reality), specifically by the nature of volitional beings (humans) individually since consciousness is an individualized phenomenon. Nobody has an identical set of values since every person lives in their own separate context, so to use physical force to subvert a person's consciousness is evil. On principle, it does not matter if we are talking about a murderous thug or the government

 

[EyeBRollin]

No, that's what happened in the real world to a couple that gave little caution for the culture there and paid the price. Which is what speed dawg was trying to get at you about. Things happen, and often even having a gun doesn't stop it. But having a gun is the concept of personal responsibility and not being naive.

No. What likely happened is escalating road rage wit one person that had a gun. There was no personal responsibility exercised at all. There is negative correlation between gun-related homicides and suicides per capita vs. gun restrictions.

 

[HaleyBaron]

No. What likely happened is escalating road rage wit one person that had a gun. There was no personal responsibility exercised at all. There is negative correlation between gun-related homicides and suicides per capita vs. gun restrictions.

Except the one with the gun knew they could enforce their will freely cause most people like the white couple are too naive to fire back at him, whether by fear or lacking the necessary gun to do so. That gun gave him power. Now imagine if the white guy was more informed and fired back at the guy for shooting at them.

 

[speed dawg]

No. What likely happened is escalating road rage wit one person that had a gun. There was no personal responsibility exercised at all. There is negative correlation between gun-related homicides and suicides per capita vs. gun restrictions.

Let's say you get what you want, and there are laws passed that restrict guns. If you were ever a victim of a gun crime, who do you think will most likely be behind it? Me, Mr. LawAbidingCitizen, or the thug who got his gun on the black market and doesn't give 2 sh*ts about the aforementioned laws?

And don't give a smartass answer like "tHe PoLiCe", because the chances of that happening are non-existent compared to a random criminal doing harm to you with a gun.

Again, I go back the post I made earlier that you conveniently ignored, #45 in the thread.

 

[Plinco]

Everybody take a breath

"you are free do what you want, but you are not free of the consequences"

Paraphrasing Ayn Rand

 

[Billtx49]

Gentlemen, all I know is if there’s two guns in a gunfight, the odds of survival are basically even and the outcome is then only dependent on each person’s skill level.

 

[EyeBRollin]

Let's say you get what you want, and there are laws passed that restrict guns. If you were ever a victim of a gun crime, who do you think will most likely be behind it? Me, Mr. LawAbidingCitizen, or the thug who got his gun on the black market and doesn't give 2 sh*ts about the aforementioned laws?

And don't give a smartass answer like "tHe PoLiCe", because the chances of that happening are non-existent compared to a random criminal doing harm to you with a gun.

Again, I go back the post I made earlier that you conveniently ignored, #45 in the thread.

Gentlemen, all I know is if there’s two guns in a gunfight, the odds are even and the outcome is then dependent on each person’s skill level.

To answer Bill’s point- the same applies if there are zero guns in a gun fight. That Is what I advocate.

If I could Thanos snap them out of existence altogether it would be ideal. If you act out of line it comes down to hands and makeshift weapons around you. Gun culture is preventing accountability for people that need to act better or face a good ass whooping.

I am a handgun owner myself in NJ. It is for home protection. I only “need” it because we have so many damn guns in this country.

 

[HaleyBaron]

If everyone in the world had zero guns, I would still rather have the sole one.

 

[EyeBRollin]

If everyone in the world had zero guns, I would still rather have the sole one.

Why?

 

[HaleyBaron]

Why?

I become the most powerful person in the world.

 

[EyeBRollin]

I become the most powerful person in the world.

That is only true if you created it.

 

[speed dawg]

I am a handgun owner myself in NJ. It is for home protection. I only “need” it because we have so many damn guns in this country.

Yes, you need protection, wrong on the reason. You are protecting yourself against criminals, who don't care about our laws.

Some redneck with an assault rifle will statistically never come to rob you. Do you think they will or something? I'm genuinely curious. If you had to draw a picture of the type of criminal who commits a random assault or violent crime (which is all you and I need to worry about)......yeeeeah I don't think the picture would be exactly what you think it would be (or WANT it to be).

You've been lied to, buddy.