High Conflict People

[jimwho]

Successful people--and losers--both leave footprints. It's up to you and no one else to determine whose to follow.

Another great quote. I'll be plagiarizing that one..

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Boundaries she was crossing were as follows (I will model it after yours):

1. Lack of Relationship with my Daughter

I had made this point clear from the beginning that I wanted her to have a positive relationship with my daughter. I didn't expect her to be mommy or anything, but I wanted her to be someone my daughter could look up to. I also told her that I would like her to spend time with us when she had the chance, not that I expected her to ALWAYS be with us, but to make an effort to come over and be with us. Neither of these things occurred over the course of 2.5 years. Instead, she made excuses that she "tried" but that it was "up to me to always schedule something specifically with her" because I can't just tell her the door is open and to come over whenever. I still don't understand her reasoning on this point except I think it was a combination of not taking responsibility/gaslighting that she used to try to get around it. I should point out I have 50/50 custody with my ex-wife, and essentially I think my ex-GF just saw this as an opportunity to be quasi-single when I had my daughter and go out and drink with her friends or do her own thing.

2. Had no "off" switch for work or drama in her relationships/very bad boundaries with people

I told her repeatedly that she needed to just chill out throughout our relationship. It's like she had no ability to ever completely relax. She was either going at 100 mph or she would just be passed out on the couch (with me sitting there wondering why we were even together in the same place). She also let people get her to do things that they had no business asking for, but in turn she would request equally odd/inappropriate things of people as well. Generally, this would be men she would request this from and they would essentially always agree because I am sure on some level they hoped to get in bed with her eventually (orbiters). She also had a twin sister who she would become verbally abusive and condescending towards for essentially no reason when she would speak to her. The entire thing got exhausting -- I would get home and want to relax after work and she would bombard me with bullsh1t for another 2-3 hours.

3. Had an inappropriate relationship with an older male "friend"

Let me be clear that I don't think physical cheating ever occurred. But around a year and a half ago she started to have this guy "help" her network around the city and meet people. It was clear the guy mostly just wanted to get in her pants. However, despite me telling her this outright that that is what he wanted she told me he was "happily married" and it was insulting that I would ever suggest something inappropriate would occur. Again, more gaslighting. This is where I should have been much more forceful about her ending it. Within the last couple of months of the relationship, I checked her phone a couple of different times and looked at their conversations. He was sending her kissing emojis with the message "I mean that completely platonically of course" and was telling her he would "be up late if she wanted to text later." Me seeing this was essentially what put me over the edge and made me finally decide to just end it. However, I should have nipped it in the bud.

To go along with "2" above, she had this type of relationship with a number of her orbiters. She basked in the attention it got her.

4. She was ALWAYS right in an argument and would always want to lecture (almost could not stop talking -- like literally)

When we argued, she would go at a mile a minute and would launch into lecturing form about why I was wrong (which was literally about every time I tried to discuss an issue with her). It was 100% gaslighting and talking in circles. It made making progress with her on any issue almost impossible.

There were other problems of course -- but those were the major boundaries that were consistently being crossed. I can say I definitely mismanaged #3 pretty badly because I did not want to appear insecure. In reality I should have set a strong boundary to cut it off with this guy or that I would simply walk. I also should have used S & D much more. At the end I was mostly arguing with her and she would become almost manic when she would argue with me.

Wow many similarities with my girl - mostly on #3 and #4.

My girl had male orbiters as well. She wasn't into them and I definitely believed her because I'd met these guys and knew they were far below her league, but they were persistent and would provide her with company, attention, someone who is always a phone call away from dropping whatever they were doing to come and keep her company. She wasn't awful with boundaries with them though - not as bad as what you describe, in that my girl would almost never see these guys 1:1 while we were together (it was more in a group setting), but they would text her ALL the time and repeatedly cross the line by inviting her over to spend the night, ask if they could come over and shower, or literally directly proposition her for sex in a half-joking way. Like you, I didn't want to be controlling but after losing my ex wife of 6 years to beta orbiter, I learned my lesson on boundaries and ensured I enforced them with this girl. I told her she needed to tell him the invites and propositions weren't appropriate and that she shouldn't ever be hanging out with any of these guys 1:1. She probably only hung out with one of those guys maybe twice 1:1 in the year we were dating but I told her twice was too much. Plus, can you imagine how your girl would have reacted had you been doing the same thing? Mine couldn't even handle me liking my platonic female friend's social media posts.

I experienced the same as you for #4. Circular, mile-a-minute arguing, with lots of gas-lighting, that leads nowhere. This forced my hand into dealing with disputes very strictly: Ask questions to understand her but don't respond or counter-point anything. Just keep asking questions until she's about said all she can say. Then say how I feel about it (not challenging any of her positions - simply saying how I felt). Then if she argues against what I say, I would say, "I've said everything I have to say, I'm not changing my position." and if she kept pressing, I'd then employ silence and distance or break-up with her.

So glad I'm out of it. Glad you are too brother.

 

[Barrister]

Wow many similarities with my girl - mostly on #3 and #4.

My girl had male orbiters as well. She wasn't into them and I definitely believed her because I'd met these guys and knew they were far below her league, but they were persistent and would provide her with company, attention, someone who is always a phone call away from dropping whatever they were doing to come and keep her company. She wasn't awful with boundaries with them though - not as bad as what you describe, in that my girl would almost never see these guys 1:1 while we were together (it was more in a group setting), but they would text her ALL the time and repeatedly cross the line by inviting her over to spend the night, ask if they could come over and shower, or literally directly proposition her for sex in a half-joking way. Like you, I didn't want to be controlling but after losing my ex wife of 6 years to beta orbiter, I learned my lesson on boundaries and ensured I enforced them with this girl. I told her she needed to tell him the invites and propositions weren't appropriate and that she shouldn't ever be hanging out with any of these guys 1:1. She probably only hung out with one of those guys maybe twice 1:1 in the year we were dating but I told her twice was too much. Plus, can you imagine how your girl would have reacted had you been doing the same thing? Mine couldn't even handle me liking my platonic female friend's social media posts.

I experienced the same as you for #4. Circular, mile-a-minute arguing, with lots of gas-lighting, that leads nowhere. This forced my hand into dealing with disputes very strictly: Ask questions to understand her but don't respond or counter-point anything. Just keep asking questions until she's about said all she can say. Then say how I feel about it (not challenging any of her positions - simply saying how I felt). Then if she argues against what I say, I would say, "I've said everything I have to say, I'm not changing my position." and if she kept pressing, I'd then employ silence and distance or break-up with her.

So glad I'm out of it. Glad you are too brother.

Definitely on the issue of other women. It was a huge double-standard. If I mentioned that I thought it was odd when she was 1-on-1 with a male friend (orbiter) she would tell me that "having friends with the opposite sex is normal" and try to act like I was super insecure (which I am not at all). However, even though it rarely happened because I never put myself in the situation, if I had another woman give me attention in any way she would become extremely aggressive and catty about it. There were a number of double standards in our relationship and that was definitely one of them.

Glad you are out too! Ha.

 

[Kotaix]

The article is necessary to spread awareness. There is a constant flow of guys coming in here who have been lured in by the sex and ignored the red flags listed here, only to get burned later. And what it says is completely true.

The man who communicates more with women with his mouth is the man who doesn't understand women.

This is also true.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Definitely on the issue of other women. It was a huge double-standard. If I mentioned that I thought it was odd when she was 1-on-1 with a male friend (orbiter) she would tell me that "having friends with the opposite sex is normal" and try to act like I was super insecure (which I am not at all). However, even though it rarely happened because I never put myself in the situation, if I had another woman give me attention in any way she would become extremely aggressive and catty about it. There were a number of double standards in our relationship and that was definitely one of them.

Glad you are out too! Ha.

Yes, same. If I was talking to a woman - any woman, be it the girlfriend of a new friend I was introduced to, or a platonic female friend of mine, or literally any other girl, she would later make a comment to me about how ugly the girl was (even if she wasn't) and at times would also accuse me of flirting with them. She would also bad-mouth my exes as being ugly (they weren't) or some other form of insult unrelated to appearance. Bad insecurity there. These girls really DO think inside their mind that what they do is completely different from what you do even if it clearly isn't, and is excusable on their part for a whole host of reasons. THAT is the personality disorder showing up. If you try to discuss it with them, they will shuck and jive and dance around to come up with whatever sounds good to them on-the-fly. They will test multiple reasons as to why it's different and acceptable for them, as you dismantle them one by one, until they finally think they land on something solid - even if it isn't true. This is why you can never win an argument with them and it makes no sense to try. You simply have to give them a chance to talk about their feelings while you listen, then communicate your boundary firmly, and then leave it at that and be willing to walk away from the relationship if she doesn't honor your boundary. These women really hate that because you are blockading their ability to control and manipulate but it's the only productive path you have. I'm just thankful I found the path after all these years. Years ago, nearly everything in my relationships was a "negotiation" and the women nearly always won. They are masters at the dance of argument/debate/manipulation.

 

[Barrister]

Yes, same. If I was talking to a woman - any woman, be it the girlfriend of a new friend I was introduced to, or a platonic female friend of mine, or literally any other girl, she would later make a comment to me about how ugly the girl was (even if she wasn't) and at times would also accuse me of flirting with them. She would also bad-mouth my exes as being ugly (they weren't) or some other form of insult unrelated to appearance. Bad insecurity there. These girls really DO think inside their mind that what they do is completely different from what you do even if it clearly isn't, and is excusable on their part for a whole host of reasons. THAT is the personality disorder showing up. If you try to discuss it with them, they will shuck and jive and dance around to come up with whatever sounds good to them on-the-fly. They will test multiple reasons as to why it's different and acceptable for them, as you dismantle them one by one, until they finally think they land on something solid - even if it isn't true. This is why you can never win an argument with them and it makes no sense to try. You simply have to give them a chance to talk about their feelings while you listen, then communicate your boundary firmly, and then leave it at that and be willing to walk away from the relationship if she doesn't honor your boundary. These women really hate that because you are blockading their ability to control and manipulate but it's the only productive path you have. I'm just thankful I found the path after all these years. Years ago, nearly everything in my relationships was a "negotiation" and the women nearly always won. They are masters at the dance of argument/debate/manipulation.

Yes, my ex loved badmouthing my ex wife as being "pretty and dumb" and would always talk about how she only had our daughter around to collect a child support check (which isn't remotely true). This was a pattern though with anyone she did not care for. She constantly badmouthed them and made them sound like they were scum. Really, she was just an overly pessimistic person that was profuse with negativity.

Looking back, a red flag I shouldn't have missed was her telling me how every single one of her exes was some type of horrible person - drug addict, physically abusive, suicidal, etc. And each one of them only cared about themselves. Her ex immediately before me actually accused her of cheating on him with me (she had told me she had broken up with him months before). Looking back, this is something that should have been very concerning and kind of fit with the constant male attention she always needed from every source.

I will know better next time I suppose and screen better than I did.

 

[Jor-El]

I agree completely. When someone is always judging other people, complaining about other people and things and situations - friends, co-workers, bosses, whatever, it's a huge red flag. These people will turn to targeting those CLOSEST to them, so if you get into an intimate relationship with them, you will become the target of all their anger and unhappiness. Most often it starts out the opposite - they view you as the answer to all their problems and so things seem so wonderful and incredible with them, like you found the one! But you start hearing them complain about other people, and as their comfort level with you increases, so do the complaints, and before you know it, you then become the target of their complaints.

Great post. Iv experienced exactly this.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Really, she was just an overly pessimistic person that was profuse with negativity.

This is a key red-flag. I look for glass-is-half-full people. My ex hid it well at first but the longer we dated, the more it came out. I won't deny that I deliberately chose to ignore a certain amount of it. I won't make that mistake again. In the famous book "How to Win Friends and Influence People," a key principle was, "Never condemn, criticize, or complain." It is great advice for ones-self, and also for screening others.

Looking back, a red flag I shouldn't have missed was her telling me how every single one of her exes was some type of horrible person

I have had some very bad experiences with my exes, but complaining about them reflects poorly on ME not on them, because what does it say about me if I'm attracting these types of women and I am choosing to stay in relationships with them? Now I just say something vague like, "We just weren't right for each other - just not compatible." Women usually hate that non-answer and will be more motivated than ever to keep bringing it up and digging for more information, and while they may seem frustrated/angry that you won't give them all the details, and some may resort to manipulation tactics like telling you they assume you are being vague because you cheated on your ex and she dumped you for it, it's actually far better for you to say nothing than telling them the full story (even if you are squeaky clean in the story). It also links back up to your point number 1 about being pessimistic and negative. I'm not that kind of person so I don't bad-mouth exes.

 

[bcude]

From observing i believe most men let their gf's/wives have orbiters until they get burned enough times to realise it doesn't work and regret it in hindsight.
As a strong leader of any relationship you have to set certain boundaries not to let the dog sh1t all over your house, and be ready to follow them up forcefully. This is partly what makes a girl safe with you, just like a child. Deep down, all women are natural followers and want to be told what to do because they all have some sort of daddy complex.
It's not so much an issue of compliance or control as it is respect. It's an agreement: You provide her with fair, consistent leadership and understanding love, and she in turn is obedient, respectful, and helpful to you.
Why would we give up our freedom and enter something long term only to give a free card to facilitate cheating?

As soon as you hear that you're controlling (with fair boundaries), it probably means low interest on her part or you're trying to turn a ho into a housewife, which doesn't work and once again highlights the importance of choosing the right girl. A girl that's truly into you will not only oblige, she'll remove any kinds of doubts you may have without you even having to ask. In either case, i think alot of men would benefit from communicating them early in the dating phase by sprinkle it in here and there: "look at this girl over there hanging out with those guys, i could never be in a relationship with a girl like that."
If she cant abide by your rules then the consequence is her not getting a strong man, not you not getting a proper girl. She selected herself out.

I have had some very bad experiences with my exes, but complaining about them reflects poorly on ME not on them, because what does it say about me if I'm attracting these types of women and I am choosing to stay in relationships with them? Now I just say something vague like, "We just weren't right for each other - just not compatible." Women usually hate that non-answer and will be more motivated than ever to keep bringing it up and digging for more information, and while they may seem frustrated/angry that you won't give them all the details, and some may resort to manipulation tactics like telling you they assume you are being vague because you cheated on your ex and she dumped you for it, it's actually far better for you to say nothing than telling them the full story (even if you are squeaky clean in the story). It also links back up to your point number 1 about being pessimistic and negative. I'm not that kind of person so I don't bad-mouth exes.

I think this is where alot of guys shoot themselves in the foot by complaing themselves and pouring their hearts out, which makes them look weak and like complainers, as you said. Not only does it communicate that you'll probably bad mouth her too eventually, it also shows no accountability. I do think an even better response would be to say "she was a great gal but wasn't right for ME". Always portray the chooser frame. It also presents a good opportunity to convey some standards, which only people of higher value will do. When she starts to dig you can calmly explain to her that she wasn't living up to XYZ of your expectations. That'll put some healthy pressure on her.
There's really nothing to be gained from bad mouthing ex's, even if she was a nagging b1tch you always want to put them in a good light.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Very well said bcude.

As soon as you hear that you're controlling (with fair boundaries), it probably means low interest on her part or you're trying to turn a ho into a housewife, which doesn't work and once again highlights the importance of choosing the right girl.

I want to highlight the point about "fair" boundaries. What I experienced when I was blue-pilled, was that I had no boundaries that I had complete conviction of. Instead, my boundaries were all negotiable, though I didn't recognize them as such. When I would communicate boundaries to my ex, she would then manipulate and negotiate, as most women do when confronted with a boundary. Unfortunately, the majority of the time I would let her convince me that my boundary wasn't fair.

A very wise man once told me that there are no such things as unfair boundaries. If you feel strongly enough about something that you would walk away from a relationship if a woman crossed, or repeatedly crossed a given boundary of yours, then that is a fair boundary. Period. Will all women comply with this boundary? Of course not. But all women are not compatible with all men either. So you keep your boundaries and you don't let a woman convince you that they are unfair.

At the very least, if you are questioning one or more of your boundaries, ask us here - but don't take input from her on it, definitely don't take other women's advice, and don't talk with guy friends about it unless you have a very high degree of faith that your friend really understands women and relationships.

i think alot of men would benefit from communicating them early in the dating phase by sprinkle it in here and there: "look at this girl over there hanging out with those guys, i could never be in a relationship with a girl like that."

That's great advice, and entertaining to me because it is exactly the kind of covert communication women use - so it will work well on them. I've definitely had women inform me of their boundaries or try to manipulate me by saying things like that. A common example is, "My d-bag ex was so controlling and thought it was ok for him to forbid me from hanging out 1:1 with my guy friends." Back in my blue-pill days, I just absorbed that and pathetically told myself, "I'm definitely not going to be that guy," but now I respond with, "He sounds like a wise man."

 

[samspade]

Yes, my ex loved badmouthing my ex wife as being "pretty and dumb" and would always talk about how she only had our daughter around to collect a child support check (which isn't remotely true). This was a pattern though with anyone she did not care for. She constantly badmouthed them and made them sound like they were scum. Really, she was just an overly pessimistic person that was profuse with negativity.

Looking back, a red flag I shouldn't have missed was her telling me how every single one of her exes was some type of horrible person - drug addict, physically abusive, suicidal, etc. And each one of them only cared about themselves. Her ex immediately before me actually accused her of cheating on him with me (she had told me she had broken up with him months before). Looking back, this is something that should have been very concerning and kind of fit with the constant male attention she always needed from every source.

I will know better next time I suppose and screen better than I did.

Wow, that's so similar to my negative ex.

She was OBSESSED with my ex-wife, who lived by then in another country and whom she never met. She just hated her. I think because I never spoke ill of the ex-wife; we had good times, it just didn't work out. I said I never really fought with the ex-wife and my then GF would steam over it because she was always picking fights. I think deep down she was pissed that there was a woman I said "yes" to for matrimony. I was like, bytch, I divorced her, lol. But to her she'd always be a runner-up.

And then as far as her exes, yeah, she found faults in all of them. They all did or said something allegedly so terrible to her. (Except one, from high school, who came out as bi after they dated, lulz. They stayed friends.)

On top of that, she was always finding faults with my family. That was a little more subtle. It caused some rifts (though my family shares some blame in that). Again I think it was insecurity over me not wanting to marry again.

Funny enough, I found her blog recently, and she writes about me several times (also my ex-wife once). Of course most of it is complaining. Glad to be living rent free in her head while she's some other dude's problem.

Also, she hated the Beatles. That should have been the BIGGEST red flag for me.

 

[Barrister]

Wow, that's so similar to my negative ex.

She was OBSESSED with my ex-wife, who lived by then in another country and whom she never met. She just hated her. I think because I never spoke ill of the ex-wife; we had good times, it just didn't work out. I said I never really fought with the ex-wife and my then GF would steam over it because she was always picking fights. I think deep down she was pissed that there was a woman I said "yes" to for matrimony. I was like, bytch, I divorced her, lol. But to her she'd always be a runner-up.

And then as far as her exes, yeah, she found faults in all of them. They all did or said something allegedly so terrible to her. (Except one, from high school, who came out as bi after they dated, lulz. They stayed friends.)

On top of that, she was always finding faults with my family. That was a little more subtle. It caused some rifts (though my family shares some blame in that). Again I think it was insecurity over me not wanting to marry again.

Funny enough, I found her blog recently, and she writes about me several times (also my ex-wife once). Of course most of it is complaining. Glad to be living rent free in her head while she's some other dude's problem.

Also, she hated the Beatles. That should have been the BIGGEST red flag for me.

Yes - my ex-GF prided herself on being tough and "in your face and direct." In reality, I think she is deep down insecure on a number of levels and uses this as a means to cover for that. The unprompted shots at my ex-wife or other women who gave me any sort of attention when she was around clearly came off that way. Granted, this is usually what women do when they feel insecure about other women (at least in my experience). They try to tear down the other women in your life. Like you, she and my sister also had a strained relationship (my sister couldn't stand her and the ex was aware of this -- led to a number of fights between us).

You're right though - you should never have continued the relationship once you found out she hated the Beatles. Shame on you! JK