Gir who wants to keep her options open

[Ever onward]

Okay I've known this girl for seven years and she had me firmly in the friend zone. Recently we became f-buddies. She said we could be that way as long as I understood not to get emotionally attached. Meanwhile just as we were initially hooking up, she had been telling me about a guy she had planned to go on a date with in a few weeks.

Anyway, weeks go buy and we have some really intimate and emotional moments. She hints at being more than f-buddies but says she isn't sure.

Then a few nights ago she told me she went on the date. I was really hurt as I have grown attached to her. I figured that as we went along she would just get so into me that she would forget about the other guy.

So I react, get upset, tell her that I can't be her friend anymore because it bothers me to see her go out with other guys. She gets completely upset. She cries at the prospect of losing me as a friend. She said she totally regretted the date as she couldn't enjoy herself because she was thinking of me. But at the same time, she says her feelings for me are unsure and she can't say she won't go out with other guys down the road if she gets asked.

I went over to her house last night to comfort her as she was really upset. We had sex for "the last time" and I told her that I need space to get over having feelings for her. She said she understood. Now I really miss talking to her every day as a friend.

The thing is she and I have every reason to get together. The sex is intense. Our friendship is awesome. But obviously she just doesn't feel it for me. I know it's childish of me to cut off the friendship but damn it, my feelings are hurt and I don't want to see her dating other guys.

Did I do the right thing in cutting off the friend ship? If not, what would my other options be?

 

[azanon]

If you want to be exclusive, i'd take a different approach. With my wife now, we dated a while where she was free to date others, but when i was ready to be exclusive, i just put it on the line. I recall telling her (as a 21 year old), that you should have a pretty good idea of whether i'm the guy for you or not, so if am that guy, then I want to be exclusive from now on. If not, its over. Inwardly, i was thinking and hoping I might actually snag this woman for my very own!.... now's the time!

My point is, it looks stronger if you do it matter-of-factly instead of getting emotional in front of her, or showing that you feel threatened. Don't say your feelings are hurt! Be iron, even if they are hurt. Hide that s***!

The dates she went on prior to that conversation with other men was her last; well to my knowledge anyway!

.........

Back on point, if you're emotionally involved and you want more... the FB relationship is indeed over. It either needs to advance or end. Its just about impossible to go back. If you watched the series "House", you saw that exampled first-hand.

 

[Ever onward]

Thanks for the quick reply man!

I think I've already shown her that it bothered me emotionally so it's too late on that end.

Yes I would like to be more than a f-buddy with her and I made that clear. She was wishy washy so obviously she doesn't want that.

My big question is should I walk away from being her friend? I miss her friendship. It's so hard not to pick up my phone right now and start texting her about every little thing that we used to talk about together.

 

[azanon]

My big question is should I walk away from being her friend? I miss her friendship. It's so hard not to pick up my phone right now and start texting her about every little thing that we used to talk about together.

Standard DJ Bible stuff; i usually agree with it. Meaning, dont try to be her friend now, its really too late for you emotionally now anyway. All you can do is like Chase did in "House"; remind her if the opportunity comes up that you want to be exclusive and that you hope she says yes to your request. But just do it infrequently or once/twice. Avoid anything that will appear as needy; such as repeated text messages. Wanting exclusiveness doesn't have to be needy.

 

[Sinistar]

Friendship before intimacy has about a 0.1% chance of turning into a healthy LTR (or STR for that matter). The initial frame is all wrong and you can rarely go back to set it right.

You are a guy trying to be friends like you would with guys (thats the way we're wired). Well it doesn't hurt when your buddies go on dates because you couldn't give a rip one way or the other. Add to this, women do friendship an entirely different way with much of being based on feelings versus loyalty for guys.

Distance and seeing other will help you most here. It is not to punish her rather to help you find healthy ground so you can get on with things.

Otherwise you will experience first hand just how good women are at "being friends" while they have a FB in tow. She'll want you to be happy and date other women - meanwhile she'll be getting banged by other guys and wanting to tell you all about it because you are her girlfriend. Being in the state is optimal for her. Her options are open, you are always available in case one of her Alpha's flakes and it provides her with a steady stream of emotional drama.

Oh yeah, if it helps any ... it was never really a friendship (you'll understand a lot later)

What really helps here is being 100% honest with yourself. Most guys in this situation feel they need to overtly end the friendship. Why? Because it will help them move on - nope (it's a good rationalization thought). The real answer is that they hope at the deepest level that the take away (ie you running) will invoke her instinct to pull you back in (ie her chasing). However, even if you pull this off, it will be short lived and only make the emotional sh!t more difficult later on.

So be a MAN and a FRIEND. Pull back that energy and focus it somewhere else. Instead of offering her an ultimatum (that is what telling her the friendship is over equates too) just move on with your life. Believe it or not she will respect you the most for being decent about it, not making a big deal of it and seeing you do what you know is right - moving on. Who knows, if you were meant to be acquiantences at some level fate will bring it about. And if not, you did her one last friendly deed by cutting her lose without blowing up, begging, pleading, etc. Do that she loses respect. When a woman loses respect you will never be her lover of friend.

 

[Sinistar]

Standard DJ Bible stuff; i usually agree with it. Meaning, dont try to be her friend now, its really too late for you emotionally now anyway. All you can do is like Chase did in "House"; remind her if the opportunity comes up that you want to be exclusive and that you hope she says yes to your request. But just do it infrequently or once/twice. Avoid anything that will appear as needy; such as repeated text messages. Wanting exclusiveness doesn't have to be needy.

...come on dude. Standard DJ Bible stuff says a MAN owns the frame (ie he does not wait for opportunities he goes out and makes them). And a MAN never waits, hints or asks for exclusivity - that is the woman's job. Making her drive the exclusivity topic is a big deal when it comes to a MAN establishing a healthy long term frame.

Edit: So, no I wouldn't tell her you interested in a LTR with her when the opprotunity comes up. What she will hear is "He really is the chump, that just proved it. I'm looking for the Alpha who has options and for some reason doesn't seem to care."

 

[azanon]

...come on dude. Standard DJ Bible stuff says a MAN owns the frame (ie he does not wait for opportunities he goes out and makes them). And a MAN never waits, hints or asks for exclusivity - that is the woman's job. Making her drive the exclusivity topic is a big deal when it comes to a MAN establishing a healthy long term frame.

This ties into the whole, LTR/marraige is evil at Sosuave. I don't subscribe to that. I didn't wait, hint or ask - i insisted. It was what i wanted and, quite frankly, if what she wanted differed, i really wouldnt have cared.

Edit: So, no I wouldn't tell her you interested in a LTR with her when the opprotunity comes up. What she will hear is "He really is the chump, that just proved it. I'm looking for the Alpha who has options and for some reason doesn't seem to care."

Having options and exercising one of those options aren't mutually exclusive. If she says no to him, he goes to another option.

He isn't a chump if he says its either all him or nothing. He's a chump if he asks for exclusiveness, and ends up caving on letting her date other men anyway OR resorts to "just a friendship" with her in an attempt to salvage. Real men get what they want on their terms and, in my opinion, there really are benefits to other men not banging your woman.

 

[Sinistar]

This ties into the whole, LTR/marraige is evil at Sosuave. I don't subscribe to that. I didn't wait, hint or ask - i insisted. It was what i wanted and, quite frankly, if what she wanted differed, i really wouldnt have cared.

...azanon, I think we are very different people. First things first, I don't believe LTR's/Marriage are evil. However, locking oneself into a LTR/Marriage when too young has proven a very high rate of failure. And I think SS does a service to guys (old and young) to point this out. And they point out why. And they dare to take it a step farther by honestly [and rather blundtly] spelling out the things a guys gives up in a LTR and what he may potentially lose if a marriage fails (at any age). Hey dude, I'm married and you don't hear me arguing with these guys. Facts are facts. If you want to dispute them, just re-open one of the many threads you're elluding to.

Having options and exercising one of those options aren't mutually exclusive. If she says no to him, he goes to another option.

...I don't think you understand. She has already said no to him. I think you are *listening to what she's saying* and not listenting to her actions. If she wanted him and was not comfortable with the FB angle she would take different actions.

He isn't a chump if he says its either all him or nothing. He's a chump if he asks for exclusiveness, and ends up caving on letting her date other men anyway OR resorts to "just a friendship" with her in an attempt to salvage. Real men get what they want on their terms and, in my opinion, there really are benefits to other men not banging your woman.

...uh, yeah he would be. Chumps issue ultimatums and that is exactly what you've written above. And I agree, he is also a chump is she turns down his request and resorts to the age old AFC approach of friending his way back to intimacy. Oh yeah, one more thing. She is not his woman. She made this clear from the start.

 

[azanon]

...azanon, I think we are very different people. First things first, I don't believe LTR's/Marriage are evil. However, locking oneself into a LTR/Marriage when too young has proven a very high rate of failure.

What constitutes too young? Subjective opinions aren't very helpful, so maybe just let the question ring out. This dude is 30!

And they dare to take it a step farther by honestly [and rather blundtly] spelling out the things a guys gives up in a LTR and what he may potentially lose if a marriage fails (at any age). Hey dude, I'm married and you don't hear me arguing with these guys. Facts are facts. If you want to dispute them, just re-open one of the many threads you're elluding to.

1. You can be both honest and blunt at the same time, and both can add value.
2. You're married? Nice to have some more support; acknowledged or not.
3. Why is the burden of proof for what i'm saying mine? Maybe those who disagree with me have the burden of proof.

...I don't think you understand. She has already said no to him. I think you are *listening to what she's saying* and not listenting to her actions. If she wanted him and was not comfortable with the FB angle she would take different actions.

I'm not going to read into something without sufficient information to draw a conclusion (like you are doing). Maybe if she wanted him, she was waiting on him to put his foot down. Someone has to ask first, and generally that's a man thing to do.

...uh, yeah he would be. Chumps issue ultimatums and that is exactly what you've written above. And I agree, he is also a chump is she turns down his request and resorts to the age old AFC approach of friending his way back to intimacy. Oh yeah, one more thing. She is not his woman. She made this clear from the start.

I feel powerful when I say it like it is, not weak. I feel powerful when i dont give a rat's ass if they turn me down and I move on to another option. You can call me a chump all you like, but I know how i feel. I also know what gets me results.

...............

I do vaguely recall maybe parts of the DJ bible/or saved articles that vilify "ultimatums". Maybe what i'm saying here is that I believe there are times where they are called for; in particular a relationship that is well established and has a good deal of length and evolution to it. This guy is emotionally attached now, so either the FB relationship needs to end, or it needs to advance...... NOW!, not tomorrow. Nothing like an ultimatum to get that answer quick.

 

[Sinistar]

azanon, I think we're just seeing things differently (based on what the OP wrote). I've been in a situation similar to what he describes. Perhaps you have too. From what I've read (and what I've tried to pick up between the lines) I offered advice which I think will help the OP move forward with his life. I believe he has already said more than enough and that it is now time for him to follow that up with actions. It won't be easy for him to pull back and focus his energies and efforts towards other women. Yet I know he can do it. He is at a crossroads. He can get locked up in a wicked mind-fvck waiting and hoping that she will want the same thing. Or he can move on (or as I like to say 'forward'). Moving forward somtimes means leaving other things behind. If she wants to be with him, I believe it is in his best interest at this point to let her catch up. I would hope others would chime in here if they feel he should really speak to her again regarding the exclusivity or pursuing the relationship farther. IMHO, it's over. It sucks. In the end there is no right or wrong just causality.

In a way I agree with you. You usually get your answers to ultimatums quick

However, they are rarely what you want or desire because there is nothing to back them. His level of desire for her is obvious. Her level of desire for him appears to be wanning / gone. If she desired him enough, this never would have happened. He never would have even written in the first place. He would have had the power [she has]. And ironically, she may have been the one issuing an ultimatum had his interest wanned.

ps. I dig being married. I'm glad I waited though. Had I hitched up at 20 or 25 I probably would have f'd it all up (inexperience, naivette, social programming, etc) and I would have missed experiencing a lot. A man's gotta lotta sh!t to learn between 18 and 40 And you are right, the OP being 30 is at a great age if he finds a stable balanced HB who loves him, treats him well and wants to father his kids.

 

[azanon]

>That's a good post and I agree with all of it, Sinistar. I sometimes allow "arrogance" to not let me give up on a matter when i should, because I think there's some new trick i can pull out of a hat. You're right, maybe his wisest move is to do absolutely nothing else, and forget her, unless she actively interjects and comes back reeling to him. I have no quarrels with that advice.

I only had to throw in the idea of an ultimatum, which was really already too late for him (to do it the way i would have), because that got me my wife. Lucky or not, that got me my woman. When I delivered the ultimatum to her, any weakness associated with an "ultimatum", i believe, was offset by the fact that I had the guts to actually say, "my way or the highway" - when she knew full well that I was lovin' her and the sex. She read my eyes to see if i really meant it and they truthfully told her "yes dear, i mean it - choose".

 

[d9930380]

Why did she even tell you about this date?

Would you have told her had you been going out on a date?

She wanted to see how you would react. Who knows why but I'll take a guess!

Probably because she fears commitment and was worried you where getting serious, therefore she had to bring you back into line. Everything she says after about not wanting to be on the date etc is just damage control by her looking to diffuse the situation. Expect her to start acting distant to you after it's seemingly been a non-issue for a while especially if you don't show signs of chilling out.

What to do? As the man above said, simply breaking it off with her isn't neccessarily the best thing. That break can take a long time to heal. Next time you see her act like nothing happened, and continue on where you left off before. Except this time try to focus on the reasons why you shouldn't be with her. Eventually you will see her as just a FB, then you can end it or not without it effecting you.

 

[Ever onward]

Thanks guys for the spirited debate!

Why did she even tell you about this date?

I think your assumptions are pretty accurate. She either wanted to make sure I knew where things stood or she felt guilty.

So be a MAN and a FRIEND. Pull back that energy and focus it somewhere else. Instead of offering her an ultimatum (that is what telling her the friendship is over equates too) just move on with your life. Believe it or not she will respect you the most for being decent about it, not making a big deal of it and seeing you do what you know is right - moving on. Who knows, if you were meant to be acquiantences at some level fate will bring it about. And if not, you did her one last friendly deed by cutting her lose without blowing up, begging, pleading, etc. Do that she loses respect. When a woman loses respect you will never be her lover of friend.

'DING DING DING' I think we have a winner!

I think you may be right on the money here. Though I'm trying to move on and not be emotionally attached to her, I think that I did do the cutting her loose as an ultimatum as you say.

Which is really bad because I lose a great friend in the process who I do care about.

And I also agree with you in that I felt I was being immature by pushing her away like that. A MAN should be able to handle it. Maybe I'm not at that level emotionally yet but this is good practice.

I think the solution is to keep her as a friend but to pull way back. Not contact her as often, keep her at a distance emotionally, and pursue my own life. That way I'm not punishing someone I care about by pushing them out of my life. And I'm keeping my emotions from being hurt.

 

[st_99]

I think the answer lies in being completely honest with yourself.

If you want a "relationship" with her then NO, dont try to regain her friendship or be her friend. Thats lieing to yourself.

I think she made it clear that she doesn't want to be in a relationship with you. Thats not going to change anytime soon or probably ever. Like others said, the frame has been set for that NOT to happen.

Now if you really thought that you are emotionally over her and don't mind a buddy to talk to, then there is certainly nothing wrong with remaining friends.
BUT, you have to be able to handle the fact that she is banging other guys, you probably cant do that though.

I was in a situation like yours and chose to just move on because the frame that was set (my fault) was just alllll wrong for me, but right for her. :nono:


Oh, and I'll add this although some people may not agree. Chics that are able to have FB's without wanting a relationship are usually bad news in the long run. They may not be bad people in general but are not relationship material.

 

[Ever onward]

Oh, and I'll add this although some people may not agree. Chics that are able to have FB's without wanting a relationship are usually bad news in the long run. They may not be bad people in general but are not relationship material.

That's a good point. She is probably not long-term material anyway. Seems most girls I come across share this mindset unfortunately. Regardless, I need to get more options.

 

[jophil28]

I agree . Chics who just want FB's are NOT suitable candidates for an LTR.
A woman will usually "merge" with a man when she begins to sleep with him, especially in situations like yours. Women who do NOT emotional 'invest' in the man that they are sleeping with are not girlfriend material.
Who knows why some women do not want a relationship,and who cares why - the point is this -she is not a suitable MATCH for your requirements .

 

[st_99]

That's a good point. She is probably not long-term material anyway. Seems most girls I come across share this mindset unfortunately. Regardless, I need to get more options.

Some of us get a little ahead of ourselves when we start having sex with a HB. Even though we know in the back of our minds that the girl is all wrong for us.

It all comes down to options. Thats the only answer.

 

[Metro3pilot]

Oh man ...don't I know your pain ! !

I just went thru the same thing ....exactly the same thing ..in fact if I did not see your name I would have thought this was a post I had written ...

point being ...who cares dude ..you hit that ass and you will hit some ass again ..maybe not hers ... maybe it will be hers ...

look at her for who she really is ...and not the disney relationship fantasy you have made her ... see her as a person ....I would be willing to bet at least for me ...once I hit that ass I see what's really going on and the fantasy crumbles, and then she turns into a " person "

she dont want a relationship with you and I would be willing to bet, not with anyone at this point ...she's damaged and not only is it not your job to fix her with the love you no doubt have for her ...... but you can't fix her

It sucks my brother ...but your only choice is to move on and find another chick ...bang her as long as you can if at all and if destiny brings you back together cool if not ...well at least you hit that ass

ST99 and Jophil ....... hit it spot on with their posts on her not being long term material ...

 

[bigjohnson]

look at her for who she really is ...and not the disney relationship fantasy you have made her

That should go in someones sig line.

 

[d9930380]

Alot of women are turning into blokes. They want no commitment sex as they've their careers/life to live.

Wait until they start to hear their biological clock or all their friends get hitched then they'll be ready for that commitment. It's got nothing to do with the fact she's not LTR material, she's just not ready for a LTR and starting a family.

BTW - I'm assuming she's not a slut who simply ****s loads of guys due to insecurities and a need for validation/attention. They're the ones to stay away from.