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George Floyd Riots: A Possible False Flag?

DelayedGratification

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I do think we should have some sort of reform in the judicial system to hold officers accountable for police brutality. I think the president should have suggested something of this sort in his speech today. I do agree with him taking a hard line against the rioters, looters, vandals, etc. Peaceful protest is good, rioting should not be tolerated. I was switching around the news channels, and MSNBC and CNN were upset that the president wanted to stop the riots lol. Probably great for the news cycle. I feel for George Floyd and his family, and also for the people who owned businesses that were destroyed, burned, or looted, not to mention the people who were assaulted. This is a damn sad time to be American.
Read a good piece on the notion that when police brutality is being protested, police take it personally and essentially act as a counter-protest rather than being a force to protect life and property and attempt to de-escalate the situation. Rather they do more than their share to escalate. Plenty of video footage to support that. Also, thankfully, plenty of footage covering officers showing solidarity with protestors (the peaceful ones anyway).

But I'm of the mind that the bar for Posse Comitatus is pretty freakin' high, and we aren't there yet, We will collectively regret that line being crossed.
 

mrgoodstuff

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This is sad to say, but I don't see any way we can prevent the kind of incident that happened to George Floyd. Police work is inherently violent, and requires them to take control of situations. Bad eggs are going to creep in, unless maybe they psychologically test people fro 20 years before allowing them on the force, and I be they would still slip through the cracks, or be driven mad on the job. The kind of aggressive personalities that can be channeled to do this kind of work are going to backfire sometimes. They need to hold off rioters while being pelted with bottles, just as one example. And they need to do it in a kind, gentle way, or they will be fired. I would not want to be a police officer for any money.

That's why I think a lot of the time, people will give the police officers the benefit of the doubt in iffy situations. Because it's an extremely difficult and dangerous job. In this case, however, everyone can plainly see that this was a disgusting and unnecessary act. Which is why you are seeing people of all races protesting.

I do think we should have some sort of reform in the judicial system to hold officers accountable for police brutality. I think the president should have suggested something of this sort in his speech today. I do agree with him taking a hard line against the rioters, looters, vandals, etc. Peaceful protest is good, rioting should not be tolerated. I was switching around the news channels, and MSNBC and CNN were upset that the president wanted to stop the riots lol. Probably great for the news cycle. I feel for George Floyd and his family, and also for the people who owned businesses that were destroyed, burned, or looted, not to mention the people who were assaulted. This is a damn sad time to be American.
People that have shown greed or propensity for violence shouldn't be in that job because they will get worse.
 

zekko

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Read a good piece on the notion that when police brutality is being protested, police take it personally and essentially act as a counter-protest rather than being a force to protect life and property and attempt to de-escalate the situation.
There's like a good ole boy network in law enforcement. Police don't want to turn in their co-workers. Police are basically domestic military, and I'm sure there's a fox-hole mentality, they want to support their brothers. That's understandable to an extent, but as we have seen, there are bad cops, and there are bad protesters. Apparently there are plenty of scummy people to go around, on both sides.

As for your second comment, I don't think anything will be required beyond the national guard, but we'll see. In any case, I don't think people should be allowed to burn down our cities, any more than I think police should be allowed to kill handcuffed civilians who are not resisting.

People that have shown greed or propensity for violence shouldn't be in that job because they will get worse.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I wish we could fill all the police jobs with Mr. Rodgers, but unfortunately I don't think there are enough like him to go around. He was a sniper in the military, you know (kidding, just kidding).
 

zekko

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More recently I watched The Last Dance, and a commentator mentioned how most people project their past onto their future which disrupts their present, but that Michael Jordan is always in the now. I found that fascinating. I also watched The Zen Diaries of Garry Shandling, and he also was a big proponent of simply being in the moment as a stand up comic.
I saw Zen Diaries, Shandling was a surprisingly interesting person. Anyway:

All that stuff about being present is a very Buddhist/Eastern philosophical idea. But funny you guys bring it up, because I recently watched several science podcasts where they talked about time and the nature of reality. I've heard some people say that the past and the future is an illusion, and the present is the only thing that's real. But these guys were saying the past and the future were just as real as the present.

They were saying the universe, and all its history, was like a cd or a vinyl record. The groove for track 5 is just as real as the groove for track 1, and it all exists. It's just that we can only perceive the one moment that we are in at the time. Like we are the laser or the needle. But the past and the future is still there, just as real as the present.

I have no idea what, if any of that, is true, but your comments reminded me of it.
 

Poonani Maker

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This is sad to say, but I don't see any way we can prevent the kind of incident that happened to George Floyd. Police work is inherently violent, and requires them to take control of situations. Bad eggs are going to creep in, unless maybe they psychologically test people fro 20 years before allowing them on the force, and I be they would still slip through the cracks, or be driven mad on the job. The kind of aggressive personalities that can be channeled to do this kind of work are going to backfire sometimes. They need to hold off rioters while being pelted with bottles, just as one example. And they need to do it in a kind, gentle way, or they will be fired. I would not want to be a police officer for any money.

That's why I think a lot of the time, people will give the police officers the benefit of the doubt in iffy situations. Because it's an extremely difficult and dangerous job. In this case, however, everyone can plainly see that this was a disgusting and unnecessary act. Which is why you are seeing people of all races protesting.

I do think we should have some sort of reform in the judicial system to hold officers accountable for police brutality. I think the president should have suggested something of this sort in his speech today. I do agree with him taking a hard line against the rioters, looters, vandals, etc. Peaceful protest is good, rioting should not be tolerated. I was switching around the news channels, and MSNBC and CNN were upset that the president wanted to stop the riots lol. Probably great for the news cycle. I feel for George Floyd and his family, and also for the people who owned businesses that were destroyed, burned, or looted, not to mention the people who were assaulted. This is a damn sad time to be American.
yeah because of the media, NO ONE wants to be a cop so, in order to get candidates for the job the HR of those departments has to scrape the dregs, hire women even, to fill those positions - it's a sh!tty job due to "rules of engagement" either overt or covert, much like Vietnam and all wars post WWII
 

zekko

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yeah because of the media, NO ONE wants to be a cop so, in order to get candidates for the job the HR of those departments has to scrape the dregs, hire women even, to fill those positions - it's a sh!tty job due to "rules of engagement" either overt or covert, much like Vietnam and all wars post WWII
Good point. The protesters want more pressure put on the cops to perform correctly (as they should). But it probably results in fewer good candidates who want to take the job, so they end up hiring more bad cops. It's like a lose lose situation.
Speaking of the media, I'm surprised anyone even still wants to be president these days. Maybe that's why we have the choices we're left with now.
 

DelayedGratification

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As for your second comment, I don't think anything will be required beyond the national guard, but we'll see. In any case, I don't think people should be allowed to burn down our cities, any more than I think police should be allowed to kill handcuffed civilians who are not resisting.
Agreed that the violence has to stop, but it's unclear at this point what will make that happen. And we can't directly compare this to race riots of the 60's, because with the internet information travels instantaneously and the ability for the destructive agents to organize and stay ahead of the curve is all but unprecedented. The destructive elements can probably keep this going indefinitely.

As for Posse Comitatus, we have a president who has, as of today, declared his intention to disregard it. Even though you're likely correct in that the National Guard is probably sufficient, assuming the bulk of the police force stops treating peaceful protesters as the same level of enemy combatant as the violent ones. Until they stop being reactive, this tinderbox will continue to burn. (and I'm in no way blaming them for the riots, but the footage I've seen demonstrates a show of force that is counterproductive to quelling the unrest)
 

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zekko

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Even though you're likely correct in that the National Guard is probably sufficient, assuming the bulk of the police force stops treating peaceful protesters as the same level of enemy combatant as the violent ones. Until they stop being reactive, this tinderbox will continue to burn.
On that note, I've seen a lot of footage of these protests, and I've noticed a very common occurrence. A protester, or more likely several of them, will go up to an officer or National Guardsman, get into their personal space and start yelling at them, often with a phone in hand to film their reaction. Or they will have someone else with a phone, filming them while they seemingly try to goad them into some sort of reaction.

Why are they doing those? These guys are just people with jobs and families to support. They didn't kill George Floyd. What purpose are they serving trying to goad them? This seems hypocritical if they supposedly want peace, or people not to be killed.

Personally I don't find this a "laughing stock" with my perspective. What this does is just once again remind me of the deep gratitude I feel to be from Sweden. In all my 27 years of life here despite being brown I have never had to think about police harassment, never felt the smallest worry that it would happen.
I don't think there is any country on Earth that has as diverse a population as the USA right now. The US is nicknamed the "melting pot". That is both our strength and our weakness, apparently.
 

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There's like a good ole boy network in law enforcement. Police don't want to turn in their co-workers. Police are basically domestic military, and I'm sure there's a fox-hole mentality, they want to support their brothers. That's understandable to an extent, but as we have seen, there are bad cops, and there are bad protesters. Apparently there are plenty of scummy people to go around, on both sides.

As for your second comment, I don't think anything will be required beyond the national guard, but we'll see. In any case, I don't think people should be allowed to burn down our cities, any more than I think police should be allowed to kill handcuffed civilians who are not resisting.


Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I wish we could fill all the police jobs with Mr. Rodgers, but unfortunately I don't think there are enough like him to go around. He was a sniper in the military, you know (kidding, just kidding).
The police in the US has been over-militarized, I think that's a big part of the problem. My belief is that decriminalizing drugs and prostitution would go a long way toward giving cops time to pursue more serious crimes, while keeping a lot of minorities out of long term prison sentences. I get the concept of broken window policing, but without a black market there wouldn't be as many broken windows to police.

And as you said, cops have each others' backs, which is good for day to day support but bad when they go rogue. There will always be "rotten apples" but police should be willing to ostracize them, not protect them. It's the same bunker mentality we see in the Catholic Church - "rotten apples" being protected instead of punished. This can happen in any bureaucratic institution. Police are under a lot of pressure and should be allowed to make mistakes, but I don't see what Chauvin and his confederates did as a split-second mistake.

I don't think there is any country on Earth that has as diverse a population as the USA right now. The US is nicknamed the "melting pot". That is both our strength and our weakness, apparently.
I don't know, I think this is something we tell ourselves and believe but may not be totally true. I live in a big city in Europe and we have blacks, Latinos, Asians, Arabs, etc., etc., and people get along fine and you rarely see this stuff from the police. There's very low crime. I'm not saying it's perfect but I don't get how the US can't figure it out. Then on the other hand there are countries like Brazil that are just as diverse as the US but much, much worse in terms of gang violence and police violence.

Probably the main reason is despite being a melting pot, the US has a long history of implementing segregation. Obviously in the south, but moreso now in the north. They say Milwaukee is the most segregated city in America, and the Twin Cities probably aren't much different. There's plenty of blame to go around...real estate companies that "redlined" neighborhoods to keep blacks out (and thus prices high), liberal eggheads who thought government projects were different from slums, and people in general fearing what they don't know.

Well I don't have all the answers, but I will say kudos to us, this thread has gone on without flaming or name calling. Or should I not have said anything? Is that like mentioning a perfect game to a pitcher?
 

Medina

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The biggest lesson is that multiculturalism doesn't work and it never has. It is the basis of almost every internal conflict in history

Germans couldn't live with Jews
Irish Catholics couldn't live with Protestants
Indian Hindus couldn't live with Muslims
Jews couldn't live with Palestinians
Scots couldn't live with the English
Americas problem is a black/white one

Unfortunately, of course
 

Papa_smu

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The biggest lesson is that multiculturalism doesn't work and it never has. It is the basis of almost every internal conflict in history

Germans couldn't live with Jews
Irish Catholics couldn't live with Protestants
Indian Hindus couldn't live with Muslims
Jews couldn't live with Palestinians
Scots couldn't live with the English
Americas problem is a black/white one

Unfortunately, of course
Correction, jews had a hard time living with anybody. It's really too bad that wast he case :(
 

Who Dares Win

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The biggest lesson is that multiculturalism doesn't work and it never has. It is the basis of almost every internal conflict in history

Germans couldn't live with Jews
Irish Catholics couldn't live with Protestants
Indian Hindus couldn't live with Muslims
Jews couldn't live with Palestinians
Scots couldn't live with the English
Americas problem is a black/white one

Unfortunately, of course
Agree.

Different people forced to cohexist in a limited space leads ton conflict.

Diversity is not a value but a problem wheter we talk about a nation or work environment.

Diversity does not enrich, it simply complicate things in terms of goal achieving or simple communication.

No riots or terrorism attacks in poland while plenty in france or england...wanna know which one is the difference?
 

samspade

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The biggest lesson is that multiculturalism doesn't work and it never has. It is the basis of almost every internal conflict in history

Germans couldn't live with Jews
Irish Catholics couldn't live with Protestants
Indian Hindus couldn't live with Muslims
Jews couldn't live with Palestinians
Scots couldn't live with the English
Americas problem is a black/white one

Unfortunately, of course
These groups live together just fine in many places and have over eons. The conflict is sewn by governments and politicians who make a living off of this stuff and a few nut jobs who feed off of it. Then it's hyped by the media. Most people day to day aren't looking to start a pogrom.
 

samspade

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Agree.

Different people forced to cohexist in a limited space leads ton conflict.
Anything forced is not going to work, I agree. Whether it's forced integration or forced segregation.

If commerce leads the way, people will go where they can make money and be happy. I see society as one big marketplace. Unfortunately too many politicians (almost all of them) can't help themselves.
 

Medina

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These groups live together just fine in many places and have over eons. The conflict is sewn by governments and politicians who make a living off of this stuff and a few nut jobs who feed off of it. Then it's hyped by the media. Most people day to day aren't looking to start a pogrom.
I agree that divide and conquer is a tool used in history but you can't say these groups have lived together peacefully for eons, that's just false

Jews, Gypsies, English, Irish etc have been pitchforked long before the introduction of political systems
 

samspade

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The biggest lesson is that multiculturalism doesn't work and it never has. It is the basis of almost every internal conflict in history

Germans couldn't live with Jews
Irish Catholics couldn't live with Protestants
Indian Hindus couldn't live with Muslims
Jews couldn't live with Palestinians
Scots couldn't live with the English
Americas problem is a black/white one

Unfortunately, of course
Well you make a good point. It's kind of funny, who outside of Ireland could tell or cared about the difference between a Protestant and a Catholic? Or if you arrived at the new world and saw two native tribes going at it, you'd think they were indistinguishable. If/when aliens invade earth, they'll enslave or kill all of us.
 

DelayedGratification

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Why are they doing those? These guys are just people with jobs and families to support. They didn't kill George Floyd. What purpose are they serving trying to goad them? This seems hypocritical if they supposedly want peace, or people not to be killed.
Because disproportionate force by police is a culture, and even simple inaction by police against this culture makes them complicit. Just as inaction against racial injustice makes society complicit. It's also symbolic of the original act: the police in question were acting out against violent offenders which they undoubtedly encounter on a regular basis. But George Floyd was not one of those violent offenders, he was an ordinary man with people who cared about him.

The only correct response to merely being non-violently goaded by a protester is to keep the moral high ground and not react. That is the one thing that will demonstrate to a protester that the individual police officer being provoked is not going to respond with disproportionate force.

The next step is to do what happened in Flint and elsewhere, where police proactively showed solidarity with the peaceful protestors.
 

zekko

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I don't know, I think this is something we tell ourselves and believe but may not be totally true. I live in a big city in Europe and we have blacks, Latinos, Asians, Arabs, etc., etc., and people get along fine and you rarely see this stuff from the police.
Most people get along just fine. There are a few bad eggs, but those few are too many, and we've seen the result. The US is a violent country, unfortunately.

Because disproportionate force by police is a culture, and even simple inaction by police against this culture makes them complicit. Just as inaction against racial injustice makes society complicit.
I see the sense in that. But by that logic, everyone not out protesting is guilty and should be a target. And it seems to justify aggression by one human against another - something they're supposed to be protesting. And those were aggressive acts, even if there was no physical contact, although in many cases there were, and invading someone's body space is aggressive. Let someone invade your body space for long periods of time to see if you react, and see how you deal with it. Reminds me of some protesters during the Vietnam War, a somewhat friendlier approach:


Numerous police officers have been assaulted or shot during these riots. That violence is wrong, just as what happened to George Floyd is wrong. I've never been a huge fan of the police, but I can't condone the violence against them. They're humans like the rest of us.

Unfortunately, it feels like America's experiment with freedom has failed.
 
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FairShake

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I don't know, I think this is something we tell ourselves and believe but may not be totally true. I live in a big city in Europe and we have blacks, Latinos, Asians, Arabs, etc., etc., and people get along fine and you rarely see this stuff from the police.
Europe is having it's own problem with racial intolerance and segregation though and it seems, from the outside, to be getting worse. That said your Arabs, Blacks, and Latinos moved to Europe. They chose to come there. Our Blacks, indigenous, and Latinos were conquered or shipped here. May have been forgiven but not forgotten and it will always play a part in how we interact politically.

Another big differences. Guns. You guys don't have them. We do. The cops are scared of guns and use that fear to take away our rights. Despite "muh 2nd Amendment secures muh freedum" they use "he's got a gun" to incarcerate more of us and for longer terms, make an excuse to shoot us, and dress and arm themselves like they are ready to invade Iraq.
 
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