Frame control in pickup -bars and clubs

[Cheeky_James]

A few people on another thread have strongly suggested I do a post on this one.

Origins : The terms Frame/ Framing/ Frame control was coined in the fields of Social Sciences and Communications.

Importantly, these terms relate to influencing people and gaining status.

Btw, This is inarguable, as that’s what the terms mean.
More on this below
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Yes, the terms frame , framing and frame control directly relate to influencing people and gaining status by shaping perceptions, setting the narrative, and managing the context of interactions to project authority, confidence, and credibility, often through subtle communication and mindset. It's about defining reality and influencing others' thoughts, feelings, and actions by controlling the "lens" through which situations are viewed.
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So what do the basic terms Frame / Frames mean?

A frame is a context, a meaning, a narrative.

to set a strong narrative usually requires at least a few frames working together and reinforcing each other.
————————-

so what’s Frame Control?

Frame control = is holding the context or meaning of your narrative until your narrative BEATS the other persons narrative (re the meaning of the interaction).

- your bigger and more powerful Frame beats ‘swallows’ the other persons Frame.

- they let go of their frame and comply to jump into your frame or narrative from then onward, about the meaning of the interaction between you both.
There is compliance and following from the other party.

There’s some broad advice on Holding Frame that goes - ‘manage your emotions’ or ‘be non reactive’. But it’s a bit more complex.

frame battles

Caveat -unless a chick is happy to follow a guys pickup attempt , let a guy lead and comply right off the bat then ;

To set his Frames ( his narrative ) successfully hold them a guy must engage in Frame battle …and win.

this is key in pickup.
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I felt it important to define the 101 stuff above.

SO why is this stuff important?

In pickup in bars and clubs a Key selection criteria for women is ‘ what’s this guys status/ is he a Dominant male/ does he have Alpha-traits?’

(others may phrase it ‘ is he a Cool guy’ …or other ways. But that’s my take.)

As in clubs a guy is dealing with womens **short term mating strategy** , and it’s a very quick assessment window a guy has.

So it may be a wonderful idea to get good at winning frame battles as outlined above. As women are assessing this quality from second 0 (eek!)

re this post I’m talking purely about the interaction with a woman.

the ‘pre-work’ of Looksmaxxing, fashion and grooming ties in with above, and has to be done of course so a guy gets the chance to have the interaction at all.

she may take one look at a guy from across the room and say “nope” and no interaction happens.

I’ll give an example of strong Frame Control next.
Which is an example of a technique a guy can practice daily (which is separate from Pickup but that will build up a key skill for pickup interactions later.)
this is an idea of ‘small-chunking’ learning.

Thanks for reading. CJ.

 

[BPH]

I think you have a flawed understanding of what frame is.

It's about existing in your world, being emotionally unbothered, and not being reactive to outcomes - for better or worse.

You are doing YOUR OWN THING...allowing people who want to join you to enter your world, and moving on from the people who don't.

I think there's something inherently wrong with your thought that frames should be a "battle". This means you are trying to beat this woman's frame into submission, so that she surrenders to yours. It should be effortless; she should join your frame because she is interested in you and sees the value you can provide her - which should be self-evident by the way you carry yourself, speak, dress, and take care of your body and hygiene.

It should be obvious why she would want you.

If she doesn't, then you shouldn't be battling to win her over. This puts you in a position where you are putting her on a pedestal, trying to convince her to be interested in you, because she must not understand why she should be. Whether you're right or wrong about that, you'd have a much better time with a woman who is able to recognize your value and is interested in "buying".

Here's a great sales example from a book called Way of the Wolf: Straight Line Selling where Jordan is teaching a new salesman how to sell him a pen, and uses Danny to provide proper instruction:

"Fine, I’ll sell it to you,” he muttered, grabbing the pen and taking a moment to examine it. Then, all at once, he completely changed his demeanor and flashed me a warm smile and said, in a respectful tone: “So, tell me, Jordan, how long have you been in the market for a pen?”
“I’m not in,” I replied. “I don’t use pens.”
“Really? Well, then you can have your lousy pen back,” he snapped, tossing the pen back onto my desktop.
Then he looked at the kid and said, “I don’t sell things to people who don’t need them. I leave that to novices, like you.”

Do you get it?

You shouldn't be having "frame battles" because the woman is either interested, unsure, or not interested. You're focusing on that last category when you should be quickly moving on from those women to find and meet either of the first two.

If you can't find any of the first two, improve the aspects of yourself that you have control over until you do.

It's that simple.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

You don't want to engage in frame battles OP. Only tolerate a few sh1t tests and if she persists you're out.

Otherwise you'll be like @TheGambino

 

[Cheeky_James]

I think you have a flawed understanding of what frame is.

BPH Im pretty confused how you could write that based on the origins of and breakdown of the term /terms in my post. It’s a brief summarisation of what it actually is. As Frame and its assocatied terms were borrowed by pickup and seduction. Not coined there .

Look up any material on the subject yo’self BPH.

Just google ‘‘ what does frame mean in interpersonal relationships “ yoself dude.

Any definition or explanation will include references to Influence and Power Dynamics (Yupp) ,and aspects like ‘battle for frame”, Holding your frame, winning frame and losing frame.

All all about power dynamics buddy, winning vs losing.

Honestly , I think the SoSuave forum users have come up with their own new definition of the term.

That misses the point completely. Sigh.

 

[BPH]

BPH Im pretty confused how you could write that based on the origins of and breakdown of the term /terms in my post. It’s a brief summarisation of what it actually is. As Frame and its assocatied terms were borrowed by pickup and seduction. Not coined there .

Look up any material on the subject yo’self BPH.

Just google ‘‘ what does frame mean in interpersonal relationships “ yoself dude.

Any definition or explanation will include references to Influence and Power Dynamics (Yupp) ,and aspects like ‘battle for frame”, Holding your frame, winning frame and losing frame.

All all about power dynamics buddy, winning vs losing.

Honestly , I think the SoSuave forum users have come up with their own new definition of the term.

That misses the point completely. Sigh.

Here's a quick definition according to Google's AI:


You can certainly "lose" frame by being thrown off by some sort of external stimuli (rejection, an insult, things generally not going your way), but you don't "win" frame by "battling" a woman for control of a shared reality.

That's the point I'm trying to make to you.

 

[Cheeky_James]

I think there's something inherently wrong with your thought that frames should be a "battle". This means you are trying to beat this woman's frame into submission, so that she surrenders to yours. It should be effortless; she should join your frame because she is interested in you and sees the value you can provide her - which should be self-evident by the way you carry yourself, speak, dress, and take care of your body and hygiene.

Yes I know you think that and I know why too.
Re self evident traits - women know guys try to fake things, just to get in their pants . Especially in bars and clubs. Which is why they always Test. Again and again , until they get the feeling he’s actually legit got the traits they select for.

Re your description of the battle - perfect description! That’s absolutely what a guy needs to do. Crush and smash the absolute sh1t out of her testing frames. Dominate the interaction.
Flex your power baby! Obliterate her.

With a Hot b1tch in a bar , that’s exactly the strategy . And get this, they LIKE it. Kaboom!

Here's a great sales example from a book called Way of the Wolf: Straight Line Selling where Jordan

Ah yes Jordan Belfort , a master of frame control for sure. And also coincidentally a totally INAUTHENTIC guy haha. A sneaky salesman/stockbroker who defrauded and stole heaps o millions from people.
Very clever guy!
An example for my side- The Dark Side!

 

[BPH]

Yes I know you think that and I know why too.
Re self evident traits - women know guys try to fake things, just to get in their pants . Especially in bars and clubs. Which is why they always Test. Again and again , until they get the feeling he’s actually legit got the traits they select for.

Re your description of the battle - perfect description! That’s absolutely what a guy needs to do. Crush and smash the absolute sh1t out of her testing frames. Dominate the interaction.
Flex your power baby! Obliterate her.

With a Hot b1tch in a bar , that’s exactly the strategy . And get this, they LIKE it. Kaboom!



Ah yes Jordan Belfort , a master of frame control for sure. And also coincidentally a totally INAUTHENTIC guy haha. A sneaky salesman/stockbroker who defrauded and stole heaps o millions from people.
Very clever guy!
An example for my side- The Dark Side!

Oh yeah, Jordan Belfort isn't some saint to idolize. This is about a sales quote, not what I think of his character.

To avoid making this into another argumentative thread, here's what I'll say.

Do what works for you.

If you're having good experiences with this thought process, whether that means you're getting laid a bunch, have a steady girlfriend, or are happily married, then keep doing what you're doing.

There are several members of this forum, myself included, with a LOT of experience when it comes to seducing women. My advice to you is to keep doing what you're doing if you're happy with your result...or be open to other perspectives if that person has results you want more than your own.

 

[Cheeky_James]

Here's a quick definition according to Google's AI:
View attachment 15011

You can certainly "lose" frame by being thrown off by some sort of external stimuli (rejection, an insult, things generally not going your way), but you don't "win" frame by "battling" a woman for control of a shared reality.

That's the point I'm trying to make to you.

Yes I’m trying to make the 180 degree opposite point that you DO indeed "win" frame by "battling" a woman for control of a shared reality.

cos that’s what it’s all about.
you need to read further down the AI summary of the mechanics of how to hold frame

ie frame control via frame battles
Power moves
Winning vs losing.

In the world of frames , the results are either
-Win
-Lose
- stalemate (agree to disagree ) .

in bars or clubs , a stalemate is a bit* of a position
(Mutual respect) but really it’s the Win that’s required.

 

[Glassguy]

I see this thread is going well lol.
Carry on.....

 

[Cheeky_James]

Oh yeah, Jordan Belfort isn't some saint to idolize. This is about a sales quote, not what I think of his character.

To avoid making this into another argumentative thread, here's what I'll say.

Do what works for you.

If you're having good experiences with this thought process, whether that means you're getting laid a bunch, have a steady girlfriend, or are happily married, then keep doing what you're doing.

There are several members of this forum, myself included, with a LOT of experience when it comes to seducing women. My advice to you is to keep doing what you're doing if you're happy with your result...or be open to other perspectives if that person has results you want more than your own.

wellll… Yknow if you’re gonna dip into the world of sales ..things are gonna get murky, and hard to hold a position related to honestly and authenticity BPH strange bedfellows, salesmanship and authenticity .

lots of tricks and techniques of sales were transferred over to sell PUA too.

I’m pulling all the frame stuff out of social sciences and psychology , communications , media etc its used widely in politic debate.

its all checkable and solid . Well known, well taught and observable in real life interactions.

 

[Cheeky_James]

To avoid making this into another argumentative thread, here's what I'll say.

Do what works for you.

If you're having good experiences with this thought process, whether that means you're getting laid a bunch, have a steady girlfriend, or are happily married, then keep doing what you're doing.

There are several members of this forum, myself included, with a LOT of experience when it comes to seducing women. My advice to you is to keep doing what you're doing if you're happy with your result...or be open to other perspectives if that person has results you want more than your own.

well every thread on here is argumentative .
And nit picky and sometimes a pile-on. Don’t worry about that lol.

well there’s prob a lot of dudes looking for key stuff and a clarified version of it. And doing what doesn’t work for them.

yeah I know you’re experienced. Which is why it’s interesting you’d reject 180 what I’ve stated about Frame.

you’ve laid quite a few from bars and clubs.
I’d have assumed from that experience you had ‘Banter Battles’ with chicks? IDK.

If some hot b1tch in a bar / club rejects your approach .. why don’t you try turn it around?

if there’s certain chicks you can’t get .. it could be the Key thing ?

 

[Cheeky_James]

You are doing YOUR OWN THING...allowing people who want to join you to enter your world, and moving on from the people who don't.

she should join your frame because she is interested in you and sees the value you can provide her - which should be self-evident by the way you carry yourself, speak, dress, and take care of your body and hygiene.

It should be obvious why she would want you.

@BPH, (btw what does that stand for anyway?)

just pointing out a few things.
you’re a $50k pa earner. And live with your folks yeah ? I’m not throwing shade btw, just making a point.

women are selecting you in bars and clubs based on the following criteria.

#1 good looks
- 6 foot tall
- handsome face
- fit body
- dresses well

and then in interaction w them
#2
- cool attitude
-fun, charming, provides ‘conversational value’, sexual guy, makes me laugh (whatever , you can correct this bit)

soooo…… re #1 and the average guy
Being tall and having a handsome face cannot be “learned “ . He can get fit body and dress well.
change his hairstyle , grow a beard maybe,

#2 the interactions.
This is where he has the most leverage.

not sure why everyone is calling for inner game work/ authenticity etc etc aka “you MUST be that man completely , inside first and in ALL areas !!”

He ought to work on being dominant in his interactions and giving the perception of alpha -qualities. That he may be average looking, but he is the ‘Alpha’ of his average guy group. (lol) he is the leader of his pack of Average guys.

that’s how he will get with more women of level ,his caliber . Especially in bars and clubs.
And how, now and then, bust upward into the hotter women.
Not by working the ‘Inner Work’ trying to be some vague idea of authentic high value guy practicing stuff in an all-around every aspect of his life fashion, in the theory that it will just “flow” magically into his interactions with women in bars and clubs.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

@BPH, (btw what does that stand for anyway?)

just pointing out a few things.
you’re a $50k pa earner. And live with your folks yeah ? I’m not throwing shade btw, just making a point.

women are selecting you in bars and clubs based on the following criteria.

#1 good looks
- 6 foot tall
- handsome face
- fit body
- dresses well

and then in interaction w them
#2
- cool attitude
-fun, charming, provides ‘conversational value’, sexual guy, makes me laugh (whatever , you can correct this bit)

soooo…… re #1 and the average guy
Being tall and having a handsome face cannot be “learned “ . He can get fit body and dress well.
change his hairstyle , grow a beard maybe,

#2 the interactions.
This is where he has the most leverage.

not sure why everyone is calling for inner game work/ authenticity etc etc aka “you MUST be that man inside first!!!”

He ought to work on being dominant in his interactions and giving the perception of alpha -qualities. That he may be average looking, but he is the Alpha of his average guy group. (lol)

that’s how he will get with more women of level ,his caliber . And how, now and then, bust upward into the hotter women. Not by working the ‘Inner Work’ trying to be some vague idea of authentic high value guy.

that can be the road to mental illness.

You want to be smooth, not "alpha"

 

[Cheeky_James]

You want to be smooth, not "alpha"

Being ‘Smooth’ is a pretty wide open and vague concept,
Being Dominant is not.

interestingly re the dictionary definition
smooth =
4.
(of a person or their manner) suavely charming in a way regarded as possibly insincere.

Contains the word ‘insincere’.
Which is not about authenticity at all.
Insincere = fake.

Another key difference.
This SoSuave forum seems to be all about “authenticity” / really being that guy inside. Don’t use “fake” methods!!!

but the word Suave is similar to Smooth.

suave ; charming, confident, and elegant, though possibly insincere (typically used of a man).

So it also alludes to being insincere, or fake, or possibly using a tactic of .. oh I dunno manipulation ?

so I think the forum and its users are all rather confused.

They seem to be still living in Nice Guy Land .

food for thought.

btw and just to nail it all down


insincere

1. not expressing genuine feelings
   
   

 

[TheGambino]

You don't want to engage in frame battles OP. Only tolerate a few sh1t tests and if she persists you're out.

Otherwise you'll be like @TheGambino

wtf you talking about dude. Ive faucked about 200 women and have several in my dm right now. Some times I regret calling one more time to often with a girl I like thats it. @BillyPilgrim

 

[Cheeky_James]

You don't want to engage in frame battles OP. Only tolerate a few sh1t tests and if she persists you're out.

Otherwise you'll be like @TheGambino

please give me all your reasons why NOT to engage in frame battles.

 

[BPH]

wellll… Yknow if you’re gonna dip into the world of sales ..things are gonna get murky, and hard to hold a position related to honestly and authenticity BPH strange bedfellows, salesmanship and authenticity .

Sales and ethics can go hand-in-hand.

If somebody were to develop a cure for cancer, would it be less ethical not to sell it and let people die? Or sell it to people who value their lives more than the price they'd have to pay?

The only time sales are unethical is when the thing you're selling is different than the thing they receive.

If some hot b1tch in a bar / club rejects your approach .. why don’t you try turn it around?

I genuinely cannot think of a single time when a girl outright rejected me and later ended up sleeping with me.

If that happens, there's no reason for me to continue investing time into somebody who has already told me "no", for whatever reason. Maybe she has a boyfriend. Maybe she's having a bad day. Maybe she's sober and taking care of drunken idiots. I don't know, but I DO know the reason doesn't matter, because the solution is the same: move on and meet someone else.

If a girl gives me time of day, but is unsure, that's something I can work with, because her actions (not leaving, not turning away, engaging in conversation) have shown me she's open to seeing what I'm about.

@BPH, (btw what does that stand for anyway?)

Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia.

Just kidding, it's my initials.

women are selecting you in bars and clubs based on the following criteria.

#1 good looks
- 6 foot tall
- handsome face
- fit body
- dresses well

and then in interaction w them
#2
- cool attitude
-fun, charming, provides ‘conversational value’, sexual guy, makes me laugh (whatever , you can correct this bit)

soooo…… re #1 and the average guy
Being tall and having a handsome face cannot be “learned “ . He can get fit body and dress well.
change his hairstyle , grow a beard maybe,

#2 the interactions.
This is where he has the most leverage.

not sure why everyone is calling for inner game work/ authenticity etc etc aka “you MUST be that man completely , inside first and in ALL areas !!”

I wouldn't say they're SELECTING me so much as I'd say they're ACCEPTING me. 9 times out of 10, they're not going up to me - I have to approach them. That has more to do with my success than anything else.

Sure, the looks help, but I know plenty of better-looking guys than myself who get laid significantly less. Usually, it's because they're reliant on a crutch (their looks, their job, their money, their height) to attract women, but if that fails, they do not go up to the women they want. Furthermore, you can do a LOT in the looks department. Take a look at this latest streamer who goes by the name "Clavicular". I don't suggest people go quite to THOSE lengths, but he serves as an example of what's possible if you're not genetically gifted.

Anyway, that's besides the point.

I don't think somebody has to have everything in order to have the mentality that they're "the man" in order to be successful with women. I don't have everything in my life in order, and I'm still doing fine. Obviously, the more things that are going well for you, the easier that will be.

However, the main point is that you should never be battling for frame with a woman. You are inherently putting yourself in a lower position compared to her because you're saying that convincing her to exist within your frame is worth the effort - it is not...SHE is not.

That time and energy would be much better spent moving on to a more interested woman

 

[Cheeky_James]

Sales and ethics can go hand-in-hand.

Whaaaat the fvvvvccckkk?!
Holy lord almighty…. please pray for BPH!

oh they *can* but I’m sure it’s an exception not the rule.

 

[Cheeky_James]

I genuinely cannot think of a single time when a girl outright rejected me and later ended up sleeping with me.

If that happens, there's no reason for me to continue investing time into somebody who has already told me "no", for whatever reason. Maybe she has a boyfriend. Maybe she's having a bad day. Maybe she's sober and taking care of drunken idiots. I don't know, but I DO know the reason doesn't matter, because the solution is the same: move on and meet someone else.

If a girl gives me time of day, but is unsure, that's something I can work with, because her actions (not leaving, not turning away, engaging in conversation) have shown me she's open to seeing what I'm about

I can think of a good few times where a chicks reaction was hard/harsh and very testy. It’s fairly common that attitude. Average guys will get that a lot.

I wouldn't say they're SELECTING me so much as I'd say they're ACCEPTING me. 9 times out of 10, they're not going up to me - I have to approach them. That has more to do with my success than anything else.

Hmmm. Women are the sexual selectors for the majority situations. Unless the guy is a top guy/chad /natural and has his pick of a few options IOI’ing him. Be careful, that phrase ‘accepting me’ gets close to the Nice Guy thinking of ‘please accept me’.

‘please accept me but I’m not bothered if you don’t’ is not a power perspective. Not the strongest frame to have.

Mine would be moreso this;

Her frame - “I am a hot b1tch”
My frame - “I am a Boss motherfvcker. I am made of steel. Come test me and see. ”

And if I pony up and approach her, she will do that, as she reckons she’s a hot b1tch , she’s high value.
She wants to see what im made of .

She will test and I will do my best to take her frames and crush them completely (!).
Crush the absolute sh1t out of them. And dominate the interaction.

cos after that happens suddenly everything can change….im leading and she’s following. Think about that.

However, the main point is that you should never be battling for frame with a woman. You are inherently putting yourself in a lower position compared to her because you're saying that convincing her to exist within your frame is worth the effort - it is not...SHE is not.

That time and energy would be much better spent moving on to a more interested woman

I’d say a guy has nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying to exercise frame control and doing battles to win frames.

it’s just that it’s a non intuitive and uncomfortable idea .

And to me the criteria in bars and clubs re women is - ‘is she hot or not?’ It’s quick sex / one night stands. If she hot, she’s worth the effort to me. I want the hottest ones I can get.

 

[Cheeky_James]

I’ve just been googling for infield examples of frame and frame control. There’s not much good stuff out there afaics.

not sure who this SocialStoic guy is..
He looks kinda disabled sitting down lol

But his frame control is quite good.

I’d prefer to see the whole interaction in one go tho , without his interjections.