Do women want to be led in 2019?

samspade

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To be clear, I am pointing out the difference between f**king and wanting to f**k. I’ll be honest that some men won’t know the difference because women are good at faking attraction when they want your money and other resources.

I never said women are angels, some are very very good at tapping into the male ego by using their charms. I mean for most of our existence on earth, it’s the only card women had to play with, so it’s well f**king honed.
You could be clearer. You're talking about women prostituting themselves vs. actually wanting to fukk a guy. I don't think anyone here will be offended by the difference. And of course some women are good at faking attraction. Some men are good at faking commitment. It was ever thus.

Nevertheless, what @stormrider says holds up. "Attractive" or "hot" to a woman includes a lot of factors, not just conventional Ken Doll shyt. The female paradigm is such that they ***see*** a man as attractive or hot because of a wider range of criteria. The fact that a man is far more likely to approach an attractive woman than vice-versa should tell you all you need to know.
 

AJ84

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Lol. Ok say let's go back a million years when men had to defend the tribe against sabretooth tigers and other nomadic men. Who do you think were the most attractive men then? Masculine and dominant men. Men with high testosterone. Not pretty boys.

And who do you think were the most desirable women? Young, fertile, healthy, with hips, booty, and t!ts.

By design, women go for survival qualities. And men go for signs of fertility. This is evolution.

Men and women are not the same. We don't have the same brains. We don't offer the same qualities. We don't use the same tools to survive. Men use their dominance and women use their feminine charms to seduce these dominant men.

So you think our programming has changed somehow because society has changed?
That’s all well and fine, but we don’t live in tribes and it’s not a million years ago. It’s today, we live in today.

And no one is debating that young and fertile women are not what men prefer. EVERYONE knows young fertile women are what men prefer lol.

And everyone knows that women like manly men. Well, maybe not all women but they should lol.

Some things have not changed, that’s true, but some things certainly have changed. And one of those things is women don’t need to rely on men to survive, they can now choose to rely on men to survive. And men don’t need to provide for women, they can now choose to provide for women. This has changed a lot of how we date and have relationships, for better or for worse.

Many of the things that were were necessary to survive in a tribe a million years ago are not necessary anymore. And people are a lot less cooperative within a group, working together for the common good. We don’t do that as much anymore, we are all a bit more selfish now.

And, I’m not arguing men and woman are the same. I am however arguing that woman do place some importance on looks for their sexual satisfaction. We don’t see obese male strippers do we? Mind you half of the are probably gay but some women sure love pawing at their biceps and other body parts:).

And the 50 shades of grey guy wasn’t played by a fat 65yr old man.

Women like good looks. Don’t have to be a ripped fitness model but having something going on the looks dept certainly helps, for young and older men.

An ugly man with money and power will attract women, because he has money and power. A hot broke guy will attract women because he’s hot.

Two different types of attraction, not necessarily wise choices for women in the long run though.
 

AJ84

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You could be clearer. You're talking about women prostituting themselves vs. actually wanting to fukk a guy. I don't think anyone here will be offended by the difference. And of course some women are good at faking attraction. Some men are good at faking commitment. It was ever thus.

Nevertheless, what @stormrider says holds up. "Attractive" or "hot" to a woman includes a lot of factors, not just conventional Ken Doll shyt. The female paradigm is such that they ***see*** a man as attractive or hot because of a wider range of criteria. The fact that a man is far more likely to approach an attractive woman than vice-versa should tell you all you need to know.
You are right, there are more factors. What I’m trying to point out is that an ugly man with power and status is attracting women who want to benefit from his power and status. If he didn’t have that, he would not have them.

My understanding is that Storm is saying that if the ugly guy has power and dominance and leadership etc etc that women will get wet for him. I’m saying no, they won’t be thinking of him when they play with themselves, but they will fantasize about what they can get from him.

Which is basically a form of prostitution, yes.

That’s my main argument here. But yes when women are attracted its not just based on his looks, but that is usually the initial attraction. His looks. If she finds him ugly and really is not sexually attracted to him, it would be very difficult for him to turn that around using social proof or whatever.

When I say ugly, I don’t mean the average guy. I mean a guy who one could reasonably see would not be attractive to most women.

Because yes, Storm is right that most women are more forgiving in the looks dept but again that’s up to a certain point and it doesn’t mean we won’t eyeball hot fit guy walking down the street because everyone appreciates free eye candy :).
 

stormrider

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You are right, there are more factors. What I’m trying to point out is that an ugly man with power and status is attracting women who want to benefit from his power and status. If he didn’t have that, he would not have them.

My understanding is that Storm is saying that if the ugly guy has power and dominance and leadership etc etc that women will get wet for him. I’m saying no, they won’t be thinking of him when they play with themselves, but they will fantasize about what they can get from him.

Which is basically a form of prostitution, yes.

That’s my main argument here. But yes when women are attracted its not just based on his looks, but that is usually the initial attraction. His looks. If she finds him ugly and really is not sexually attracted to him, it would be very difficult for him to turn that around using social proof or whatever.

When I say ugly, I don’t mean the average guy. I mean a guy who one could reasonably see would not be attractive to most women.

Because yes, Storm is right that most women are more forgiving in the looks dept but again that’s up to a certain point and it doesn’t mean we won’t eyeball hot fit guy walking down the street because everyone appreciates free eye candy :).

When did I ever use the word "ugly"? You used the word ugly, not me. You were trying to say that what I am saying is obviously coming from an ugly guy. Ugly guy rationalization, lol. And then when I defeated you with logic (evolutionary psychology), you started to backtrack and now you are saying looks do matter to some degree. I never said it didn't matter. All I said was women are programmed to be attracted to masculine and dominant men. Whether a guy is good looking or not, he STILL needs to be internally dominant to keep women interested in him. As men, we don't have the luxury to show up and just be useless pretty ornaments like women.
 

AJ84

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When did I ever use the word "ugly"? You used the word ugly, not me. You were trying to say that what I am saying is obviously coming from an ugly guy. Ugly guy rationalization, lol. And then when I defeated you with logic (evolutionary psychology), you started to backtrack and now you are saying looks do matter to some degree. I never said it didn't matter. All I said was women are programmed to be attracted to masculine and dominant men. Whether a guy is good looking or not, he STILL needs to be internally dominant to keep women interested in him. As men, we don't have the luxury to show up and just be useless pretty ornaments like women.
“This is why a perceived "ugly" guy can walk into a social setting with hot women and have other women intrigued.”

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stormrider

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“This is why a perceived "ugly" guy can walk into a social setting with hot women and have other women intrigued.”

Post 28
Ok my bad. I guess I did use it. For the record, I am actually a good looking guy. I wish what you said was true. I wish all I can do is show up. But I have lost women to many ugly dudes in the past that had more social status.

So this is not a theory. And it's not coming from an ugly guy trying to use ugly guy rationalization. It's coming from a handsome guy who have actually lost women to ugly guys who were more dominant.

What you say is not what most people experience in real life. It is relegated to strip clubs. But in the actual night clubs, it's the most dominant and masculine guys who often get women.

I also have note that my inner game (value offering, non-neediness, internal dominance) has to be on point as well. Even if the woman thinks I am handsome, it is still very much my internal self that draws her interest. Likewise, if my internal state is sh1t, I might as well be ugly because every woman would be repelled. Female to male attraction is not as simplistic as have nice hair and 6 pack abs. It helps but it's more complex than that.
 
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AJ84

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Ok my bad. I guess I did use it. For the record, I am actually a good looking guy. I wish what you said was true. I wish all I can do is show up. But I have lost women to many ugly dudes in the past that had more social status.

So this is not a theory. And it's not coming from an ugly guy trying to use ugly guy rationalization. It's coming from a handsome guy who have actually lost women to ugly guys who were more dominant.

What you say is not what most people experience in real life. It is relegated to strip clubs. But in the actual night clubs, it's the most dominant and masculine guys who often get women.

I also have note that my inner game (value offering, non-neediness, internal dominance) has to be on point as well. Even if the woman thinks I am handsome, it is still very much my internal self that draws her interest. Likewise, if my internal state is sh1t, I might as well be ugly because every woman would be repelled. Female to male attraction is not as simplistic as have nice hair and 6 pack abs. It helps but it's more complex than that.
I do find that strange. I admit though that I’m not part of the club scene and I have been off the market for some time.

I also don’t know what it’s like to be a man picking up women at a bar. I’ll take your word on that stuff as you would know more about that than me that’s for sure.

You are right it’s not as simplistic as just being good looking but it helps: But f**k if women are dropping good looking guys to go with a dominant guy even if he’s ugly, that’s sad. And from what you post you seem masculine and not a full beta so wtf city do you live in where the women have lost their minds that they would turn down a good looking masculine guy for an ugly one just because he has social proof/ dominance? Are they truly ugly? Like obese/ super skinny with horrible face or something that one would reasonably see as ugly?

Is this just in the clubs or do you notice this in other social settings?

Help me understand this (if you don’t mind and when you have time) because this is f**ked up to me lol.
 

samspade

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You are right it’s not as simplistic as just being good looking but it helps: But f**k if women are dropping good looking guys to go with a dominant guy even if he’s ugly, that’s sad. And from what you post you seem masculine and not a full beta so wtf city do you live in where the women have lost their minds that they would turn down a good looking masculine guy for an ugly one just because he has social proof/ dominance? Are they truly ugly? Like obese/ super skinny with horrible face or something that one would reasonably see as ugly?

Is this just in the clubs or do you notice this in other social settings?

Help me understand this (if you don’t mind and when you have time) because this is f**ked up to me lol.
Well he is masculine, but the point is that we men have to keep our game tight. I consider myself handsome and have been told as much many times. But I also know that I've been a weak-a$$ bytch in years past just as sure as I'm a confident and masculine man today. You put an AFC version of me in a club and I will get destroyed by the competition. That doesn't mean they're all Quasimodos. It's not that binary. There's obviously a spectrum of looks. But if a guy with a sharp suit, cash flow and manly swagger has a brutal-looking face, or a paunch or gap teeth, he'll still mop the floor with AFC me. The reason: If I were still a weak-a$$ bytch I wouldn't be approaching, or if I were my game would be a mess. A good looking man can't just stand around and expect women to come up to him. It happens but it's not a method to rely on.

In fact, I remember when I was in high school actually questioning why in the heck someone who looked like me wasn't getting the same pu$$y as some other guys. I wasn't a model or anything, but I knew objectively I had a good looks and was in good shape. Of course it was because I was so nice and friendly to girls that I wasn't the "guy they wanted to fukk." That part of it I couldn't solve at the time because I didn't know how else to be around people. (This was pre-SoSuave, lol.) It was only when I told the girl I'd been chasing that I was done with her and started taking out her friends that I started getting some traction (and action). Imagine that. My face didn't change but once things started rolling all of a sudden I was being told I was "hot" and not cute or nice.
 

Spaz

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You could be clearer. You're talking about women prostituting themselves vs. actually wanting to fukk a guy. I don't think anyone here will be offended by the difference. And of course some women are good at faking attraction. Some men are good at faking commitment. It was ever thus.

Nevertheless, what @stormrider says holds up. "Attractive" or "hot" to a woman includes a lot of factors, not just conventional Ken Doll shyt. The female paradigm is such that they ***see*** a man as attractive or hot because of a wider range of criteria. The fact that a man is far more likely to approach an attractive woman than vice-versa should tell you all you need to know.
Being handsome is just a bonus factor in the attraction criterion.

Presence is the primary criteria, the way you walk, the way you talk, the way you look at people, rhythm of ur voice...ur entire body language.

Those traits flows out when you're truly manly in ur thoughts so much so it's fully embedded within ur psyche.
 

Atom Smasher

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Being handsome is just a bonus factor in the attraction criterion.

Presence is the primary criteria, the way you walk, the way you talk, the way you look at people, rhythm of ur voice...ur entire body language.

Those traits flows out when you're truly manly in ur thoughts so much so it's fully embedded within ur psyche.
Women will actually imagine that a man looks way better than he objectively looks when he fulfills those criteria. A man who has his act together actually makes him look physically attractive in her perception. For us men, physical appearance of the opposite sex is judged fairly globally and absolutely, even across most (but not all) cultures. Of course there will be some variance but studies show that there is a surprisingly global consensus on ideal looks and body shape.

There is no such universality among women when they evaluate men's looks. When a man tickles her fancy, she sees him as gorgeous. I believe our creator built that into them, and it serves a good purpose.
 

StephenM0101

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You are right, there are more factors. What I’m trying to point out is that an ugly man with power and status is attracting women who want to benefit from his power and status. If he didn’t have that, he would not have them.
Are YOU attractive?
 

Spaz

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Women will actually imagine that a man looks way better than he objectively looks when he fulfills those criteria. A man who has his act together actually makes him look physically attractive in her perception. For us men, physical appearance of the opposite sex is judged fairly globally and absolutely, even across most (but not all) cultures. Of course there will be some variance but studies show that there is a surprisingly global consensus on ideal looks and body shape.

There is no such universality among women when they evaluate men's looks. When a man tickles her fancy, she sees him as gorgeous. I believe our creator built that into them, and it serves a good purpose.
I'm continously flabbergasted by postings of some men who claims they have a harem of women but don't know this and other critical traits.

It just doesn't add up.

But let's slide this topic for another day on another thread.
 
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GrowingPains

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I know that part of the problem is that many of you have no idea under the sun what leadership actually is. You have this simplistic, surface-level speculation about what it is, but since you have had no real role models to train you and whom you can emulate, you are left not knowing anything about leadership.

One if these days I might start a discussion on what true leadership is and why women still respond and submit to it, and always will. Not that I have all the answers, but I can at least start the discussion and mention how and why being a leader has worked for me.
GREAT point here.

I would like to hear more concrete explanations on what men here think leadership is. This is a huge part of the conversation but it's missing. We're saying 'let's be leaders' but not explaining what it means to lead. If you could offer your thoughts here, even briefly, it would be a great contribution. @Spaz too

Generally speaking, I think a leader is someone with a vision and is willing to make moves and decisions to get there. The vision can be their own, or it can be a collective one (must still align with their personal values). Either way, they see it and they hunt it.

Of course, you can be a leader in many capacities so I'll constrain my definition to the context of men interacting with women.

Women want to be lead by a man with a spine. A man who makes calculated decisions that benefit him and if she is lucky.. over time he might start to consider her too. But most men, as I did once, try to appeal to her from the jump instead of keeping in mind their vision. That's spineless, you've given up on your values or desires in order to please her. How could a woman, let alone anyone, respect that?

A leader is calm and collected. Able to reason even in the most heated situations. She could be b!tching about who knows what. But you stand your ground, unfaltering from what you believe is right. This doesn't mean you don't know how to negotiate or think in terms of the group at times, don't get it twisted. But that you're not changing your core values on the spot to simply make sure her sex remains available to you. Or to not offend her. How could she respect that? Could you respect yourself or even her if she did that?

I'd have to write a book to fully explain what I think leadership is. And that ain't gonna happen. But I would like to hear more viewpoints.

You have to know what you want. And your actions must align with that. Examples of specific scenarios are irrelevant and time consuming to spell out (in bed, in an approach, in public, in arguments, push, pull, blah blah). Although it's all pretty straightforward to me: decide what you want and go after it.

Edit: Also, a good leader is able to help others see and be excited about the vision. And once they are, the leader is able to organize them to best accomplish said goal.
 
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Spaz

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GREAT point here.

I would like to hear more concrete explanations on what men here think leadership is. This is a huge part of the conversation but it's missing. We're saying 'let's be leaders' but not explaining what it means to lead. If you could offer your thoughts here, even briefly, it would be a great contribution. @Spaz too

Generally speaking, I think a leader is someone with a vision and is willing to make moves and decisions to get there. The vision can be their own, or it can be a collective one (must still align with their personal values). Either way, they see it and they hunt it.

Of course, you can be a leader in many capacities so I'll constrain my definition to the context of men interacting with women.

Women want to be lead by a man with a spine. A man who makes calculated decisions that benefit him and if she is lucky.. over time he might start to consider her too. But most men, as I did once, try to appeal to her from the jump instead of keeping in mind their vision. That's spineless, you've given up on your values or desires in order to please her. How could a woman, let alone anyone, respect that?

A leader is calm and collected. Able to reason even in the most heated situations. She could be b!tching about who knows what. But you stand your ground, unfaltering from what you believe is right. This doesn't mean you don't know how to negotiate or think in terms of the group at times, don't get it twisted. But that you're not changing your core values on the spot to simply make sure her sex remains available to you. Or to not offend her. How could she respect that? Could you respect yourself or even her if she did that?

I'd have to write a book to fully explain what I think leadership is. And that ain't gonna happen. But I would like to hear more viewpoints.

You have to know what you want. And your actions must align with that. Examples of specific scenarios are irrelevant and time consuming to spell out (in bed, in an approach, in public, in arguments, push, pull, blah blah). Although it's all pretty straightforward to me: decide what you want and go after it.

Edit: Also, a good leader is able to help others see and be excited about the vision. And once they are, the leader is able to organize them to best accomplish said goal.
Yes, a leader is also visionary, how else can he empower and also inspire people around him?

There's no general ABC steps.

If they are then its likely leadership via subjugation or preying on ones fears where one pulls out the rank card and hands out discipline. Here you don't get to create true loyalty. What you create is just fear.

There are various forms of leadership but the most effective way or most natural is the leadership of empowerment.

With empowerment you create multiple mini you's, granting each autonomy and powers to do as they please within the boundaries you set. Each of them will fail or falter, but it's to be expected because only through failures can they truly learn to be greater with you offering ur protection when they fail.

This in turn frees you up to do other tasks and from which the most important one is contemplating the next steps towards the future - here's where the vision is created or born.

Everyone in my management team follow this exact same rule, spend only 3 hours per day in the office and the rest of time out of the office, meet people for golf, or coffee or just bang balls at the yacht club or any social setting they desire.

This is how influence grows, how one gets ideas from a multitude of people, how one feels the pulse of the environment.

From there a vision is born after absorbing all that's you're seen, all that you're experienced, all that you're heard and witnessed.

True leadership should work in all strata of ur life, both professionally and personally, even with women.

If it doesn't then the leadership u r practicing is the wrong model.

Do you understand now?





 

GrowingPains

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Yes, a leader is also visionary, how else can he empower and also inspire people around him?

There's no general ABC steps.

If they are then its likely leadership via subjugation or preying on ones fears where one pulls out the rank card and hands out discipline. Here you don't get to create true loyalty. What you create is just fear.

There are various forms of leadership but the most effective way or most natural is the leadership of empowerment.

With empowerment you create multiple mini you's, granting each autonomy and powers to do as they please within the boundaries you set. Each of them will fail or falter, but it's to be expected because only through failures can they truly learn to be greater with you offering ur protection when they fail.

This in turn frees you up to do other tasks and from which the most important one is contemplating the next steps towards the future - here's where the vision is created or born.

Everyone in my management team follow this exact same rule, spend only 3 hours per day in the office and the rest of time out of the office, meet people for golf, or coffee or just bang balls at the yacht club or any social setting they desire.

This is how influence grows, how one gets ideas from a multitude of people, how one feels the pulse of the environment.

From there a vision is born after absorbing all that's you're seen, all that you're experienced, all that you're heard and witnessed.

True leadership should work in all strata of ur life, both professionally and personally, even with women.

If it doesn't then the leadership u r practicing is the wrong model.

Do you understand now?





It's not that I don't understand, it's just that I want to hear your explanation and have a conversation about it.

So you described a leader in a business situation. I don't think a woman wants to be lead the same way. As we both acknowledged, leadership can be exercised in different ways of your life. I would say that tweaks need to be made to the style of leadership in varying areas.

So what's Spaz's approach to leading a woman? And when I say approach I don't mean steps 1, 2, 3. I just mean your philosophy with some examples to clarify.
 
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Spaz

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It's not that I don't understand, it's just that I want to hear your explanation and have a conversation about it.

So you described a leader in a business situation. I don't think a woman wants to be lead the same way. As we both acknowledged, leadership can be exercised in different ways of your life. I would say that tweaks need to be made to the style of leadership in varying areas.

So what's Spaz's approach to leading a woman?
It's the same.

I create a mini me in her, in other words my world where she lives in.

In my world she's empowered to do as she pleases within the boundaries of my world. Never controlled.

My world grows in tandem with how great my vision is.

As it grows so will her.

From there admiration is born and from that respect.

Then you have the love of a woman.
 
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