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Can you bulk as a vegetarian?

Zerix

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spesmilitis said:
Whey count as dairy? I thought it doesn't since it doesn't have the properties of dairy that people avoid (when they avoid dairy).
Well, it's a milk ingredient right? So it should count as dairy :confused:
 

spesmilitis

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But it doesn't have the same properties, for example, it doesn't have as much lactose
 

Zerix

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spesmilitis said:
But it doesn't have the same properties, for example, it doesn't have as much lactose
Man, if whey protein DOES NOT count as dairy, I'm going and buying a **** lot of it tomorrow and starting back on it!
 

Suicide

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Zerix said:
Man, if whey protein DOES NOT count as dairy, I'm going and buying a **** lot of it tomorrow and starting back on it!

It counting as dairy is individual. The only reason I eat it is because it's better than soy protein for working out--I still consider it a dairy product and still consider it making an exception to veganism, at least.
 

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Zerix

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Well, what would be wrong with me going out and buying a tub of soy protein? Can't do whey...

I guess I'm a try and get 1g per lb from my foods.
 

Suicide

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Zerix said:
Well, what would be wrong with me going out and buying a tub of soy protein? Can't do whey...

I guess I'm a try and get 1g per lb from my foods.
Nothing wrong with it, it's just a different form of protein and won't bulk you up as quickly as a whey protein, but it will certainly still work.
 

Zerix

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Bible_Belt said:
Well, what would be wrong with me going out and buying a tub of soy protein?

They say soy lowers testosterone?
Bull****. I haven't came across that kinda statement yet. Proof?
 

Quiksilver

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I'm no expert, and all I know is what's been posted here before, but...

Soy has estrogens in it. It doesn't necessarily lower testoserone levels as much as raise estrogens, which effectively blocks some test. levels.

Someone more knowledgeable will come along to clear this up.
 

Bible_Belt

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Zerix said:
Bull****. I haven't came across that kinda statement yet. Proof?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy#Soy_controversy

Because of the phytoestrogen content, some studies indicate that there is a correlation between a soybean-rich diet and a decrease in the level of testosterone in men, although these findings are controversial
 

Zerix

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Bible_Belt said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy#Soy_controversy

Because of the phytoestrogen content, some studies indicate that there is a correlation between a soybean-rich diet and a decrease in the level of testosterone in men, although these findings are controversial
Jeez... damn it. I don't know what to ****ing believe anymore. Everything so far about dairy now kinda scares me off, and now this... lol.

I think I'll be starting back on whey protein soon enough.:trouble:
 

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That stuff is still unproven and up for debate. I wouldn't worry about it.
 

Throttle

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Zerix said:
Man, if whey protein DOES NOT count as dairy, I'm going and buying a **** lot of it tomorrow and starting back on it!
only you can decide 'what counts' -- what are you motivations for vegetarianism?

- moral/against killing animals -- whey production does not kill animals. at least not directly. :cheer:

- moral/against inhumane treatment of animals -- whey producers generally do not care about how the milk-producing cows are treated. quick evidence: google returns precisely one link for "cruelty-free whey" in quotes. :wave:

- moral/religious duty to avoid all animal products -- sucks to be you. better avoid whey. :(

- moral/religious devotion to cows -- does milking cows honor them or defile them? only you (and your chosen belief system) can navigate this one. :eek:

- moral/seeking a sustainable, equitable distribution of foodstuffs for all humankind -- you're in the wrong place, bud. :p

- health/avoiding fat (which is imo idiotic) -- whey has little to none, depending on the specifics (isolate/concentrate, etc.) :rock:

- health/lactose intolerance -- most whey isolate has little lactase. drink up! :D

- health/avoiding processed foods -- let he who gives up all processed foods go ahead and give up whey too. everyone else can shut their hypocritical pie holes. :whistle:

- health/"vegetarianism is healthier" -- it isn't. find new friends and/or self-help books that don't give you bad advice. :crazy:


your willingness to embrace whey if and only if it "doesn't count" (by someone else's standards) indicates that you really have no idea which of the above apply to you.
 

Bible_Belt

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health/"vegetarianism is healthier" -- it isn't. find new friends and/or self-help books that don't give you bad advice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#Health

"American vegetarians tend to have lower body mass indices, lower levels of cholesterol, lower blood pressure, and less incidence of heart disease, hypertension, some forms of cancer, type 2 diabetes, renal disease, osteoporosis, dementias such as Alzheimer’s Disease and other disorders that may be diet-related."

It's all in what you define as "healthy." If getting big is a top health priority, then being vegetarian is not the way to go. Eating meat obviously gives muscle-building benefits. But for living long and avoiding illness, there is research to suggest that being vegetarian is at least healthy in those respects.

If this thread is about "can a vegetarian bulk" then the answer is probably yes, just not as well.
 

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Bible_Belt said:
health/"vegetarianism is healthier" -- it isn't. find new friends and/or self-help books that don't give you bad advice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#Health

"American vegetarians tend to have lower body mass indices, lower levels of cholesterol, lower blood pressure, and less incidence of heart disease, hypertension, some forms of cancer, type 2 diabetes, renal disease, osteoporosis, dementias such as Alzheimer’s Disease and other disorders that may be diet-related."
Yes, some studies show vegetarians to have reduced mortalities from various diseases, but vegetarians consume more tomatoes, nuts, fruit, and less coffee, doughnuts and alcohol. Vegetarians are also more likely to exercise, more likely to put effort into maintaining a healthy weight and much less likely to smoke. Of course there is going to be a difference in health! There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that any of those health benefits is due to not eating meat.

For example...

Meat-eaters who don't smoke, exercise regularly and have good sleeping habits have similar or lower mortality rates to vegetarians.

A Finnish study showed that those eating an omnivorous diet lost more weight than those on a vegetarian diet.

One study with a 10,000 sample size found similar mortality rates from all causes between vegetarian and omnivore groups after 17 years.

Another study found a 20% reduction in mortality in the vegetarian group after 12 years, but this had disappeared in a follow-up 5 years later. In the end the only significant difference in mortality rates between the two groups was that vegetarians were 2.5 times more likely to suffer from mental and neurological diseaes.

Another study with 56,000 sample size found no different in overall mortality rates between the two groups after 6 years. In fact, vegetarians had slightly higher mortality from cancers and stroke.


Eating more fruit, vegetables and nuts; eating less processed food and hydrogentated fat; avoiding high blood sugar; exercising regularly; drinking and smoking less: all qualities of many vegetarians and all indicators of good health. But based on the evidence, you cannot possibly blame meat for differences between the health of vegetarians and omnivores.
 

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I saw a film of heart surgery for arterial sclerosis. They slit the artery, and all they have to do is grap the deposit inside and pull. It comes out like a big white rubber band. The surgeon was pulling what looked like strips of rubber two feet long out of this guy. Those deposits are caused by animal fats, or at least vegetarians think they are. To be fair, dairy fat is vegetarian yet causes the same problem, but meat fat is the biggest culprit. I knew an Indian neurosurgeon who was vegetarian not for religious reasons, but because he said he had seen the inside of the arteries of the cadavers in med school.

If it were not for these concerns, I would be on the anabolic diet eating all kinds of red meat. But I think the short-term gains come at the cost of greater long-term consequences. Long term health factors are very difficult to measure with research so we are all making educated guesses.
 

beastmaster79

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dude, no reason to go veg. i tried it in highschool and it definetely lowered my testosterone. your brain and body need meat to function properly. just eat naturally-raised/organic meat, plenty of salads and other veggies and fresh fruit. drink at least half a gallon of water a day. get flax or fish or hemp oils. get enough rest. avoid sugar and refined carbs. avoid. hydrogenated oils and other junk. do these things and you will have a healthy glow. also relax, have fun, get some exercise and avoid stress. and bone a lot. it takes much more discipline to be a healthy vegetarian than a healthy meat eater. **** vegetarianism, its for hippy chicks, dikes and feminists.
 

dot

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Bible_Belt said:
I saw a film of heart surgery for arterial sclerosis. They slit the artery, and all they have to do is grap the deposit inside and pull. It comes out like a big white rubber band. The surgeon was pulling what looked like strips of rubber two feet long out of this guy. Those deposits are caused by animal fats, or at least vegetarians think they are. To be fair, dairy fat is vegetarian yet causes the same problem, but meat fat is the biggest culprit. I knew an Indian neurosurgeon who was vegetarian not for religious reasons, but because he said he had seen the inside of the arteries of the cadavers in med school.
Yeah you should try not to substitute the meat with dairy because it's pretty much just as bad. I don't see how people go vegetarian and just eat more dairy instead. That's even worse it's processed usually.

beastmaster79 said:
dude, no reason to go veg. i tried it in highschool and it definetely lowered my testosterone. your brain and body need meat to function properly. just eat naturally-raised/organic meat, plenty of salads and other veggies and fresh fruit. drink at least half a gallon of water a day. get flax or fish or hemp oils. get enough rest. avoid sugar and refined carbs. avoid. hydrogenated oils and other junk. do these things and you will have a healthy glow. also relax, have fun, get some exercise and avoid stress. and bone a lot. it takes much more discipline to be a healthy vegetarian than a healthy meat eater. **** vegetarianism, its for hippy chicks, dikes and feminists.
LOL:rolleyes: :crackup:
 

simon

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Bible_Belt said:
I saw a film of heart surgery for arterial sclerosis. They slit the artery, and all they have to do is grap the deposit inside and pull. It comes out like a big white rubber band. The surgeon was pulling what looked like strips of rubber two feet long out of this guy. Those deposits are caused by animal fats, or at least vegetarians think they are. To be fair, dairy fat is vegetarian yet causes the same problem, but meat fat is the biggest culprit. I knew an Indian neurosurgeon who was vegetarian not for religious reasons, but because he said he had seen the inside of the arteries of the cadavers in med school.

If it were not for these concerns, I would be on the anabolic diet eating all kinds of red meat. But I think the short-term gains come at the cost of greater long-term consequences. Long term health factors are very difficult to measure with research so we are all making educated guesses.
I think you'd benefit from reading The Cholesterol Myths by Uffe Ravnskov, or The Great Cholesterol Con by Anthony Colpo ($9.95 for a book that informative is ridiculous). They'll take you through all the studies about cholesterol, saturated fat etc. and how they really relate to heart disease, ( i.e. not at all ). Very interesting and enlightening books.
 
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