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Bbrad's comments on confident persistence

oldmanofthesea

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Since his thread is making the rounds, I gave it a read and one thing in particular stood out to me: Confident Persistence.

He talks about how many guys are too quick to next a girl or give-up on a girl for things like rescheduling or occasionally not calling or not texting you back. He says women with medium interest (and even some with high interest) will do that (and I agree) and it's up to you to get a F2F audience with her to turn her interest level up through interaction.

However, he doesn't make any suggestions on this other than outlining things that are generally good principles to follow like not getting mad, not taking it personally, and other internal mindset-based game.

This particular subject: "How to handle a girl who displays any signs below high interest," is very polarizing on this site. I'd say the majority fall into the camp of nexting very quickly. For example, most guys here would never double text a girl even if it's been a week or two. I fall into this category myself but sometimes wonder if I haven't missed out on some opportunities because of it.

Some common reasons I've heard for nexting a girl who demonstrates anything less than high interest:
1. You can't win if both people employ a system (I think Doc love said this)
2. Trying to raise her interest is the wrong frame. She should be pursuing you. You aren't a dancing monkey and can't raise her attraction nor should you wan to try.
3. Generally girls who act this way won't ever be interested so best to not waste your time.

I agree with these points. But, I also know from experience that most 8s and 9s will make it difficult for ANY guy. They live in so much abundance that for them, often there is no such thing as high immediate high interest. It's not that you have to be a dancing monkey for them, they just need time to evaluate you before their interest level increases (assuming you are her type). If you aren't exposed to her regularly through a social group or some other means, getting a date is the only way to do this. 8s and 9s won't often make that easy for you.

So I'm curious to hear from guys who feel they aren't quick to next a girl.... Has it actually paid off, and if so, how often? What guidelines do you set for yourself to be persistent while also avoiding falling into the time-wasting trap, or the chasing trap?

For me, I think the only girl I successfully broke the rules with was a really cute 23yo I dated for a couple weeks. She ended it without good reason so I let it go. But I'd text her once every 12 months. Just a couple texts, before I'd suggest getting together. First year she chatted but ghosted after my date request. The next year she accepted but flaked last minute and ghosted. Third year (she was 26 at this point) she accepted and we ended up hooking up, but then she ghosted the day-of our next date two weeks later.

Except for her, before I was game aware, persistence never paid off for me so I haven't really tried it.
 

ubercat

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Now first a disclaimer. Best I've ever done is a solid 8. So I can only argue from principles.

I think you're on the money. Game aware persistence has a different impact.

AFC chasing is seldom going to win. Comes across as begging.

And then just stick to the standard principles. Don't chase one 9 chase a dozen. That way you literally won't have time to over pursue.

I think if you're aiming above an 8 top LMS is a given. Considering the heinous tatted land whales who abound these days anything over an 8 must be top 5%.

I think one window of opportunity is when you leave a job. Most decent sized offices have one or two stunners. Of course you have to breadcrumb them along before you pounce. At that point why not ask them out you're probably never going to see them again.
 
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oldmanofthesea

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I'm guessing this will be a short discussion given the fact that I could count on one hand the number of times I've read of guys here describing confident persistence. Not saying that's a bad thing - though I do wonder how many guys here regularly have 8s and 9s show them high interest from the first interaction.

I agree with @ubercat that increasing your chances by increasing your numbers is a good option, but I'd still really like to hear from anyone who has had any kind of success with confident persistence. I might start experimenting with it again on my own and report back my results.
 

guru1000

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I'll start this thread off regarding confident persistence. I define confident persistence as just being present in the awareness of self, and striving to be of true form in all your interactions with her. And in that state of authenticity, if she wants to partake, she will whether she is a 1 or a 10.

@oldmanofthesea, you ask if a 8 or 9 can really show high interest from the first interaction. In my PMs with you, I showed you in exact detail how it is indeed possible for even a 10 to show 100% interest in you by being present in true form, without game or contrivance, and without chase.

Now the question becomes if I come in true form, as I am, and a girl doesn't not resonate with me, why would I choose to pursue her? This is a deeper question that transcends winning her and into deeper territory of what self esteem does my vulnerability carry to prompt me to into force fitting desire with that whom does not fit? And does not that hole present in self which prompts such a pursuit the reason she doesn't resonate with the self to begin with?

I understand the notion of social improvement but there is a fine line between improvment and improvement that encroaches on one's self esteem. Is it possible, yes, but pragmatic, the short answer is no. I have never build an authentic relation by trying more than what was conventionally necessary and that's over a large sample size. I have seen stories of it, but the problem becomes if one were lucky in his pursuit of a particular woman, and she finally acquiesced, then what type of frame does he carry into that relation and what happens if and when he does lose her? What is he internally left with and does he have to get lucky again to manifest a similar result?
 

oldmanofthesea

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Now the question becomes if I come in true form, as I am, and a girl doesn't not resonate with me, why would I choose to pursue her? This is a deeper question that transcends winning her and into deeper territory of what self esteem does my vulnerability carry to prompt me to into force fitting desire with that whom does not fit? And does not that hole present in self which prompts such a pursuit the reason she doesn't resonate with the self to begin with?
I agree if the actual reason is that the girl does not resonate with you. But, what I am trying to explore are other reasons for a girl not giving you signals of high interest. There could be many. It is my belief that few girls will have immediate high interest in you without already knowing you (like from a social group). I have had it happy where something about my look presses some sort of button on a girl and she's immediately enthralled but it's very rare (unless she is well-below my league).

Let's say a girl you haven't gone out on a date with yet has medium interest in you, but is very busy and forgot about you. Or she was not in the right mood (work issues, tired, talking to another guy she wants to get with but who is stringing her along). Or say she likes you but reads too much Cosmo or read the book "The Rules."
So you didn't hear back from her... Or you did but them she went cold. A couple weeks go by and you reach out to her again (technically a double text on your part). Now you catch her in a completely different place and state of mind and she desires to see you so she accepts the date. You two go out, you are in front of her in the flesh and you can connect the way two people do. If after that interaction, she doesn't desire you, so-be-it. Done. But if you met via cold approach or OLD, then I feel it's a lot to ask for a hot, high-value woman to really desire you and have high interest in you before you've gone out on one date. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying I think it's very rare. So the debate becomes: Is it worth a bit of confident persistence initially to get the first date? After all, men are expected to lead and initiate and be masculine and one could argue that giving up at the first sign of challenge is none of those things. As we know, women put up many forms of challenge to vet out who the real men are.

The danger of this question is guys who OVER-persue, or are looking to rationalize their needy desire to overpursue.
 

evan12

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sometimes wonder if I haven't missed out on some opportunities because of it.
You didn't miss anything , even if she resume her contact with you, you will loose it again too soon. the reason she forget, because she is either not interested enough or intentionally to tell you to stop conversation.
 

oldmanofthesea

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You didn't miss anything , even if she resume her contact with you, you will loose it again too soon. the reason she forget, because she is either not interested enough or intentionally to tell you to stop conversation.
That's my feeling on it as well, which is why I haven't pursued much in the past, though because of that, I haven't tried it in high enough numbers to really know for sure that it won't work. And when I say pursue, I'm talking about pushing past some minor setbacks, not overpursuit. But the trick is finding the line.
 

oldmanofthesea

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Great points @Amante Silvestre

Being calibrated enough to notice the difference between refusal, vs a door being left ajar just enough to let you gently, persistently push it open is a good point, and also a skill to develop.

It made me think about overcoming last minute resistance. Most men here know to expect it, know to understand it doesn't mean she isn't interested.... It's all part of her societal conditioning and anti-slvt defense, and know to gently keep pushing through it. If all guys gave up on sex at the first sign of LMR, guys would be getting laid a lot less. So, if I relate LMR to getting a first date with a girl, could there be any lessons in LMR that could be applied to a girl who is being a bit of a challenge when it comes to setting a first or second date? That's what I'm really digging for here.
 

oldmanofthesea

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Attraction spikes can happen if she senses a dominant presence and then you approach her right away. It’s a shock to her system so she acts like she’s not interested. The amateur would quit at this point. But the seasoned guy would simply exist in her presence and shrug off her token resistance
Good points Storm.

As to the quote above, I can see how that could play out and it makes logical sense to me, but I seem to personally experience the opposite for some reason. Dominant presence followed by immediate approach spikes attraction and interest, but then when I am subsequently out of sight and trying to set a date over text, her interest fizzles and she vanishes. Not all the time of course, but frequently. So it has left me wondering if I should be leveraging confident persistence to push through in order to set that first date.
 

oldmanofthesea

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Remember what I told you about categorization? She might have been open to a one night and You’ve been categorized as a relationship guy. Remember, you are using a players approach.

You approach her like a player, she’s attracted, then she’s giving you windows to escalate and reflex compliance. But instead of pulling you number close. After that she categorizes and treats you accordingly to what she is currently open to.
Yes actually and I have been analyzing my interactions quite a bit lately from that lens. It has subsequently allowed me to be even more in-tune with a woman's signals than before, and also serves as an additional aid to easing some failed attempts and rejection. But there has been a case where the way it unfolded can't be explained by this, as I have not had any opportunities to escalate. I don't want to get into specific examples though. I'm more trying to keep this high-level.
 

oldmanofthesea

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Well let’s think about this critically. Let’s say that you approach her, she’s attracted in the moment, there are no windows to escalate, so you number close. And then she categorizes you as a relationship guy. Now here’s the problem......

In order to qualify for a relationship you need other factors such as commonalities, wavelength, chemistry, proximity, connection, and a myriad of other elements I might be missing.

Now we come full circle. She already has guys in her ecosystem that have all of these elements. Even if she doesn’t, YOU don’t have those elements working for you.
My goal in approaching is to have an interaction where I can qualify her, to see if we have these elements, before I proceed with a date request. I also don't see why getting her number in an environment where the opportunity to escalate doesn't exist means I'm a relationship guy. It's the only option available in that case and the number could be used to setup a hookup only. I do understand your points in general though. And I agree there is much truth to them but I don't think it's black and white.

Anyway, to tie this back to the point of the thread, I still think there is a good discussion to be had by comparing LMR to light first-rate resistance. And I'm not talking about a "No I'm not interested." I'm talking about, perhaps: Exchanging a couple texts and she goes dark so you ping her back after a week or two. If still no response then you next. Etc.
 

oldmanofthesea

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Big difference. As soon as you give her the power to decide the fate of it. Its end game. Loss of leverage.
Relationships are about leverage and power.
But unless your experience is quite different from mine, I don't have 8s and 9s throwing themselves at me. I have to ask them out. Therefore, in that act alone, I'm giving her the power to decide the fate.
 

oldmanofthesea

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Hmmmm i tend to believe game is game. Nature is nature weather its two 3s or two 8s?
I agree with that. But it doesn't address how you can't avoid letting a girl decide the fate of things. Dating requires two people to agree. Her disagreement is the same thing as deciding the fate. Everything is not in your control. Some guys allow women to control too much, but she will always have some.
 

EyeBRollin

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The better question OP is.. why would you want to entertain a medium interest woman? The system as outlined by Doc Love and others is more about time efficiency than trying to conquer 9s and 10s.

I’m at the point where 9 or 10s to me are just eye candy bvtches with bad personality and no effort in the bedroom. I’d much rather have a 6-7 that treats me like a king, doesn’t nag, and dating is effortless. The only 9s I’ve encountered that weren’t total bvtches were the ones that only came into their beauty later in life (usually through weight loss).

If you want to bang a 10 just hire a high class escort. You’ll save yourself the headache.
 

oldmanofthesea

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The better question OP is.. why would you want to entertain a medium interest woman? The system as outlined by Doc Love and others is more about time efficiency than trying to conquer 9s and 10s.
Because my belief and general experience is that many women put up some amount of minor barriers before the first date. Some have been programmed to do this. Some do it as a tactic to not appear too eager in order to try to appear higher value to you. Some, as Stormrider mentioned, have enough abundance with more familiar options that you just aren't high on their radar yet, or they are nervous and apprehensive. One or two dates would give you the opportunity to see if you like her, and also give her the chance to become hooked on you. If after 1-2 dates her interest is still medium or lower then yeah I'd say move on for sure because why bother. It just seems to me that expecting high immediate interest from a girl you just met is somewhat unrealistic. Especially for a high-value woman.

As for 9s (I don't believe in 10s), I don't target them specifically or exclusively, but as my game has improved, I'm getting further with 9s than before, some I'm trying to explore that. It doesn't mean I'm throwing out 7s and 8s by any means. Whether a 9 is worth it or not is a topic for a while other debate haha.
 

oldmanofthesea

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Your belief is wrong sir. When they like you, they don’t put up resistance for dates. Attraction is not a choice.
I think you are misunderstanding my belief.

If you've ever read the book "The Rules," it specifically advises women to occasionally not respond to a call or message. I have female friends. Some, not all, employ this tactic. It also advised them to use the word "maybe" and "might" a lot when setting plans. I've seen plenty of women do this.

Many girls who have high initial interest will make it easy for you. I experience this myself of course. But I'm here to debate the best approach for the ones who don't.

Just like we are taught in the manosphere to "be a challenge" and not be so easy to impress, so are women taught to be a challenge. This can manifest itself in the ways I've previously described. If you just meet a girl and she's throwing herself at you, do you not then question her value to some degree? Just like women like a challenge, so do we (well, most of us).

And the next point is that I don't think most high value women are going to throw themselves at you right off the bat.

So the point up for debate is how much resistance to accept and push through, and where to draw the line and next her. I've drawn the line very far toward nexting quickly, but am wondering if it makes sense to shift this a notch or two to the right, as I continue seeking high quality women.
 

ubercat

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I must admit anytime I have pushed through it eventually fizzled or went nuclear. If you r just after the notch that s fine and I learnt a lot.

Not to say it can't work just accept it's a low percentage play if you're looking for a girlfriend.

Now contrary to what you read on some threads here women r human. Yes they have quite ruthless and efficient mating strategies hardwired. But they also get stressed, confused, sick have evil bosses, family dramas etc.

I understand you re engaging in a social experiment to improve your game. I used to do the same with different OLD profiles in the days when OLD was OK. And I soon learnt there r limits to the empirical method.

My point is it's not all about you. The girl simply might not be in the mood for any of 100 reasons. I think you're going to find it difficult to limit the variables.
 

oldmanofthesea

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I think you're going to find it difficult to limit the variables.
Good points and I agree fully, though one variable I know I can isolate is the fact that if I next a girl, I know I won't get her. I've never had a girl I didn't get a first date with, reach out to me after a period of time. The 10 year example someone else provided doesn't really apply here because that was a relationship that ended - not a first date. I've dumped girls I've dated, who later reached out to me, but again that's different too. I'm solely focused on exploring early-stage resistance strategy.
 
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ubercat

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Addendum. Some FBI guy had a book setting out a friendship formula. It came down to proximity, frequency and intensity.

If you think about persistence in this context just showing up might count. But if you re going to enter her orbit to some extent you re going to need to balance it with ignoring and gaming other girls in the scene.

You can see how this easily could become a mess both socially and in your head.

There s a reason the standard wisdom exists.
 
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