Bbrad's comments on confident persistence

oldmanofthesea

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Since his thread is making the rounds, I gave it a read and one thing in particular stood out to me: Confident Persistence.

He talks about how many guys are too quick to next a girl or give-up on a girl for things like rescheduling or occasionally not calling or not texting you back. He says women with medium interest (and even some with high interest) will do that (and I agree) and it's up to you to get a F2F audience with her to turn her interest level up through interaction.

However, he doesn't make any suggestions on this other than outlining things that are generally good principles to follow like not getting mad, not taking it personally, and other internal mindset-based game.

This particular subject: "How to handle a girl who displays any signs below high interest," is very polarizing on this site. I'd say the majority fall into the camp of nexting very quickly. For example, most guys here would never double text a girl even if it's been a week or two. I fall into this category myself but sometimes wonder if I haven't missed out on some opportunities because of it.

Some common reasons I've heard for nexting a girl who demonstrates anything less than high interest:
1. You can't win if both people employ a system (I think Doc love said this)
2. Trying to raise her interest is the wrong frame. She should be pursuing you. You aren't a dancing monkey and can't raise her attraction nor should you wan to try.
3. Generally girls who act this way won't ever be interested so best to not waste your time.

I agree with these points. But, I also know from experience that most 8s and 9s will make it difficult for ANY guy. They live in so much abundance that for them, often there is no such thing as high immediate high interest. It's not that you have to be a dancing monkey for them, they just need time to evaluate you before their interest level increases (assuming you are her type). If you aren't exposed to her regularly through a social group or some other means, getting a date is the only way to do this. 8s and 9s won't often make that easy for you.

So I'm curious to hear from guys who feel they aren't quick to next a girl.... Has it actually paid off, and if so, how often? What guidelines do you set for yourself to be persistent while also avoiding falling into the time-wasting trap, or the chasing trap?

For me, I think the only girl I successfully broke the rules with was a really cute 23yo I dated for a couple weeks. She ended it without good reason so I let it go. But I'd text her once every 12 months. Just a couple texts, before I'd suggest getting together. First year she chatted but ghosted after my date request. The next year she accepted but flaked last minute and ghosted. Third year (she was 26 at this point) she accepted and we ended up hooking up, but then she ghosted the day-of our next date two weeks later.

Except for her, before I was game aware, persistence never paid off for me so I haven't really tried it.
 
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ubercat

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Now first a disclaimer. Best I've ever done is a solid 8. So I can only argue from principles.

I think you're on the money. Game aware persistence has a different impact.

AFC chasing is seldom going to win. Comes across as begging.

And then just stick to the standard principles. Don't chase one 9 chase a dozen. That way you literally won't have time to over pursue.

I think if you're aiming above an 8 top LMS is a given. Considering the heinous tatted land whales who abound these days anything over an 8 must be top 5%.

I think one window of opportunity is when you leave a job. Most decent sized offices have one or two stunners. Of course you have to breadcrumb them along before you pounce. At that point why not ask them out you're probably never going to see them again.
 
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oldmanofthesea

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I'm guessing this will be a short discussion given the fact that I could count on one hand the number of times I've read of guys here describing confident persistence. Not saying that's a bad thing - though I do wonder how many guys here regularly have 8s and 9s show them high interest from the first interaction.

I agree with @ubercat that increasing your chances by increasing your numbers is a good option, but I'd still really like to hear from anyone who has had any kind of success with confident persistence. I might start experimenting with it again on my own and report back my results.
 

stormrider

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I’ve never had experience with confident persistence since I don’t pursue. But I have experience with confident existence. It’s happen to me so many times with 7s 8s and 9s that I’ve lost count.

Often times I would enter a social sphere and nothing happens. Then one day one chick gives me attention and suddenly more women start giving me attention. Then out of the blue, 3-4 months into me being in the social environment, an attractive woman would come out nowhere and invite me over for dinner even though we never had a history of flirting.

I prefer confident existence because you can be in the same proximity with an attractive woman for months and even years and something can set off at any moment. Maybe it’s because you showed her an indiosyncratic behavior that she suddenly notices that touches her a certain way, or perhaps other women are giving you social proof, or perhaps every guy has blown themselves out and you’re the only one mysterious guy left. It could be a number of things.

However if I was pursuing, it would have already closed the book on me and the woman, no matter how confident I was.

This is why I believe in being neutral. I am confident that the longer I exist next to these women, the more they will become attracted to me, hence confident existence.

And the best part is, even if nothing happens, the book is always open. There’s a phenomenon called “categorization.” When a book closes between you and a woman, it means she’s already categorized you and there’s no way for you to change her impression of you. This is why the friend zone is inescapable.

This is why I don’t pursue or give any woman any validation whatsoever. This way, they can never qualify or categorize me. I’m above the friend zone because I am not even in the game.

The only way to even get me into the game is for them to submit to my frame and enter my reality. Sometimes it takes a few months. But when they do submit to my frame, I have complete control.
 
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guru1000

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I'll start this thread off regarding confident persistence. I define confident persistence as just being present in the awareness of self, and striving to be of true form in all your interactions with her. And in that state of authenticity, if she wants to partake, she will whether she is a 1 or a 10.

@oldmanofthesea, you ask if a 8 or 9 can really show high interest from the first interaction. In my PMs with you, I showed you in exact detail how it is indeed possible for even a 10 to show 100% interest in you by being present in true form, without game or contrivance, and without chase.

Now the question becomes if I come in true form, as I am, and a girl doesn't not resonate with me, why would I choose to pursue her? This is a deeper question that transcends winning her and into deeper territory of what self esteem does my vulnerability carry to prompt me to into force fitting desire with that whom does not fit? And does not that hole present in self which prompts such a pursuit the reason she doesn't resonate with the self to begin with?

I understand the notion of social improvement but there is a fine line between improvment and improvement that encroaches on one's self esteem. Is it possible, yes, but pragmatic, the short answer is no. I have never build an authentic relation by trying more than what was conventionally necessary and that's over a large sample size. I have seen stories of it, but the problem becomes if one were lucky in his pursuit of a particular woman, and she finally acquiesced, then what type of frame does he carry into that relation and what happens if and when he does lose her? What is he internally left with and does he have to get lucky again to manifest a similar result?
 
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oldmanofthesea

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Now the question becomes if I come in true form, as I am, and a girl doesn't not resonate with me, why would I choose to pursue her? This is a deeper question that transcends winning her and into deeper territory of what self esteem does my vulnerability carry to prompt me to into force fitting desire with that whom does not fit? And does not that hole present in self which prompts such a pursuit the reason she doesn't resonate with the self to begin with?
I agree if the actual reason is that the girl does not resonate with you. But, what I am trying to explore are other reasons for a girl not giving you signals of high interest. There could be many. It is my belief that few girls will have immediate high interest in you without already knowing you (like from a social group). I have had it happy where something about my look presses some sort of button on a girl and she's immediately enthralled but it's very rare (unless she is well-below my league).

Let's say a girl you haven't gone out on a date with yet has medium interest in you, but is very busy and forgot about you. Or she was not in the right mood (work issues, tired, talking to another guy she wants to get with but who is stringing her along). Or say she likes you but reads too much Cosmo or read the book "The Rules."
So you didn't hear back from her... Or you did but them she went cold. A couple weeks go by and you reach out to her again (technically a double text on your part). Now you catch her in a completely different place and state of mind and she desires to see you so she accepts the date. You two go out, you are in front of her in the flesh and you can connect the way two people do. If after that interaction, she doesn't desire you, so-be-it. Done. But if you met via cold approach or OLD, then I feel it's a lot to ask for a hot, high-value woman to really desire you and have high interest in you before you've gone out on one date. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying I think it's very rare. So the debate becomes: Is it worth a bit of confident persistence initially to get the first date? After all, men are expected to lead and initiate and be masculine and one could argue that giving up at the first sign of challenge is none of those things. As we know, women put up many forms of challenge to vet out who the real men are.

The danger of this question is guys who OVER-persue, or are looking to rationalize their needy desire to overpursue.
 

evan12

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sometimes wonder if I haven't missed out on some opportunities because of it.
You didn't miss anything , even if she resume her contact with you, you will loose it again too soon. the reason she forget, because she is either not interested enough or intentionally to tell you to stop conversation.
 

oldmanofthesea

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You didn't miss anything , even if she resume her contact with you, you will loose it again too soon. the reason she forget, because she is either not interested enough or intentionally to tell you to stop conversation.
That's my feeling on it as well, which is why I haven't pursued much in the past, though because of that, I haven't tried it in high enough numbers to really know for sure that it won't work. And when I say pursue, I'm talking about pushing past some minor setbacks, not overpursuit. But the trick is finding the line.
 

Amante Silvestre

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Look for clues of malleability.

Sometimes a woman’s apparent interest level isn’t the tell all.

It’s certainly possible, as an example, for a woman to be interested in a man, but hesitant to follow through on things because she suspects you’ll just break her heart... because you seem like you’re that kind of guy.

Sometimes women just want a man who can lead them to new experiences against their own fears.

Whatever the reason, malleability is often the sign that a woman can be pursued and any resistance broken.

Do they avoid anything in particular yet still seem to have an unexplained interest in it?

Do they say they will “never ever” do something but will still tolerate or even entertain smaller steps toward whatever that thing is? (Ive met my share of women who absolutely refused the idea of anal sex, as another example, but showed a little malleability in the smaller steps and now regularly engage in it just as casually as regular sex).

Look for those little clues of a woman caving in a little bit despite any upfront resistance. Those are the ones worth a little bit of effort to break. And if you’re the type of man who likes a little conquest, you’re going to particularly enjoy those moments when they finally succumb entirely to you.
 

stormrider

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It’s called cognitive dissonance. Her body says yes, her mind says no, and her emotions say maybe.

Attraction usually causes cognitive dissonance right off the bat. Even the sexiest women experience cognitive dissonance. I’ve had 9s tell me they have a bf one minute and make out with me the next.

Some guys might mistake it for a sh1t test. It’s just a natural reaction to an attraction spike.

Attraction spikes can happen if she senses a dominant presence and then you approach her right away. It’s a shock to her system so she acts like she’s not interested. The amateur would quit at this point. But the seasoned guy would simply exist in her presence and shrug off her token resistance.

After cognitive dissonance and token resistance comes REFLEX COMPLIANCE. This is when she complies with you out of pure reflex. She has no choice in the matter. You passed her test.

This is when you lead her around the venue or out of the venue To the pull location. However, to avoid tripping up her anti-slvt defense, you should use plausible deniability like “yeah we should watch a movie at my place and grab a bite to eat.”

She’s not dumb. She knows the deal. You’re just helping her cognitive dissonance (something that gradually dissipates with more comfort and connection).

And then you hook up with her at the sex location.

This is what confident persistence looks like. From the approach all the way to the lay. I don’t usually talk about these things anymore becauSe I’m no longer a seducer. But The manual is still somewhere in the back of my head.

Now in a social circle, women have time to overcome their cognitive dissonance so I don’t usually do anything.
 
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oldmanofthesea

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Great points @Amante Silvestre

Being calibrated enough to notice the difference between refusal, vs a door being left ajar just enough to let you gently, persistently push it open is a good point, and also a skill to develop.

It made me think about overcoming last minute resistance. Most men here know to expect it, know to understand it doesn't mean she isn't interested.... It's all part of her societal conditioning and anti-slvt defense, and know to gently keep pushing through it. If all guys gave up on sex at the first sign of LMR, guys would be getting laid a lot less. So, if I relate LMR to getting a first date with a girl, could there be any lessons in LMR that could be applied to a girl who is being a bit of a challenge when it comes to setting a first or second date? That's what I'm really digging for here.
 

oldmanofthesea

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Attraction spikes can happen if she senses a dominant presence and then you approach her right away. It’s a shock to her system so she acts like she’s not interested. The amateur would quit at this point. But the seasoned guy would simply exist in her presence and shrug off her token resistance
Good points Storm.

As to the quote above, I can see how that could play out and it makes logical sense to me, but I seem to personally experience the opposite for some reason. Dominant presence followed by immediate approach spikes attraction and interest, but then when I am subsequently out of sight and trying to set a date over text, her interest fizzles and she vanishes. Not all the time of course, but frequently. So it has left me wondering if I should be leveraging confident persistence to push through in order to set that first date.
 

stormrider

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Good points Storm.

As to the quote above, I can see how that could play out and it makes logical sense to me, but I seem to personally experience the opposite for some reason. Dominant presence followed by immediate approach spikes attraction and interest, but then when I am subsequently out of sight and trying to set a date over text, her interest fizzles and she vanishes. Not all the time of course, but frequently. So it has left me wondering if I should be leveraging confident persistence to push through in order to set that first date.
Remember what I told you about categorization? She might have been open to a one night and You’ve been categorized as a relationship guy. Remember, you are using a players approach.

You approach her like a player, she’s attracted, then she’s giving you windows to escalate and reflex compliance. But instead of pulling you number close. After that she categorizes and treats you accordingly to what she is currently open to.
 

oldmanofthesea

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Remember what I told you about categorization? She might have been open to a one night and You’ve been categorized as a relationship guy. Remember, you are using a players approach.

You approach her like a player, she’s attracted, then she’s giving you windows to escalate and reflex compliance. But instead of pulling you number close. After that she categorizes and treats you accordingly to what she is currently open to.
Yes actually and I have been analyzing my interactions quite a bit lately from that lens. It has subsequently allowed me to be even more in-tune with a woman's signals than before, and also serves as an additional aid to easing some failed attempts and rejection. But there has been a case where the way it unfolded can't be explained by this, as I have not had any opportunities to escalate. I don't want to get into specific examples though. I'm more trying to keep this high-level.
 

stormrider

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Yes actually and I have been analyzing my interactions quite a bit lately from that lens. It has subsequently allowed me to be even more in-tune with a woman's signals than before, and also serves as an additional aid to easing some failed attempts and rejection. But there has been a case where the way it unfolded can't be explained by this, as I have not had any opportunities to escalate. I don't want to get into specific examples though. I'm more trying to keep this high-level.
Well let’s think about this critically. Let’s say that you approach her, she’s attracted in the moment, there are no windows to escalate, so you number close. And then she categorizes you as a relationship guy. Now here’s the problem......

In order to qualify for a relationship you need other factors such as commonalities, wavelength, chemistry, proximity, connection, and a myriad of other elements I might be missing.

Now we come full circle. She already has guys in her ecosystem that have all of these elements. Even if she doesn’t, YOU don’t have those elements working for you.

Hence why I came up with social environment game.

Now let’s say that she categorizes you as the sexual guy instead. Well, these guys are abundant in her social circles. If you’re just the sex guy, there is a long waiting list for an attractive woman.

If you look at the whole spectrum, you will see the inherent limitations in cold approach. Hence why most guys have 10% success despite attraction.

In my experience, cold approaches are best for pulling, instant dates, and hookups right away. Out of sight, out of mind.
 
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stringpuller

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Since his thread is making the rounds, I gave it a read and one thing in particular stood out to me: Confident Persistence.

He talks about how many guys are too quick to next a girl or give-up on a girl for things like rescheduling or occasionally not calling or not texting you back. He says women with medium interest (and even some with high interest) will do that (and I agree) and it's up to you to get a F2F audience with her to turn her interest level up through interaction.

However, he doesn't make any suggestions on this other than outlining things that are generally good principles to follow like not getting mad, not taking it personally, and other internal mindset-based game.

This particular subject: "How to handle a girl who displays any signs below high interest," is very polarizing on this site. I'd say the majority fall into the camp of nexting very quickly. For example, most guys here would never double text a girl even if it's been a week or two. I fall into this category myself but sometimes wonder if I haven't missed out on some opportunities because of it.

Some common reasons I've heard for nexting a girl who demonstrates anything less than high interest:
1. You can't win if both people employ a system (I think Doc love said this)
2. Trying to raise her interest is the wrong frame. She should be pursuing you. You aren't a dancing monkey and can't raise her attraction nor should you wan to try.
3. Generally girls who act this way won't ever be interested so best to not waste your time.

I agree with these points. But, I also know from experience that most 8s and 9s will make it difficult for ANY guy. They live in so much abundance that for them, often there is no such thing as high immediate high interest. It's not that you have to be a dancing monkey for them, they just need time to evaluate you before their interest level increases (assuming you are her type). If you aren't exposed to her regularly through a social group or some other means, getting a date is the only way to do this. 8s and 9s won't often make that easy for you.

So I'm curious to hear from guys who feel they aren't quick to next a girl.... Has it actually paid off, and if so, how often? What guidelines do you set for yourself to be persistent while also avoiding falling into the time-wasting trap, or the chasing trap?

For me, I think the only girl I successfully broke the rules with was a really cute 23yo I dated for a couple weeks. She ended it without good reason so I let it go. But I'd text her once every 12 months. Just a couple texts, before I'd suggest getting together. First year she chatted but ghosted after my date request. The next year she accepted but flaked last minute and ghosted. Third year (she was 26 at this point) she accepted and we ended up hooking up, but then she ghosted the day-of our next date two weeks later.

Except for her, before I was game aware, persistence never paid off for me so I haven't really tried it.
Thers always exceptions but chasing medium interest is low % turnout.
The guy is just a good writer to make it sound good on paper.
 

stringpuller

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This particular subject: "How to handle a girl who displays any signs below high interest," is very polarizing on this site. I'd say the majority fall into the camp of nexting very quickly. For example, most guys here would never double text a girl even if it's been a week or two. I fall into this category myself but sometimes wonder if I haven't missed out on some opportunities because of it.
Just because your not chasing a girl doesnt mean shes nexted. She very well may show up at your door. Who knows.
Depending on the situation.
I have a buddy who broke it off after his dad died to relocate home. Recently reconnected after 10 years. Different story.
Always his call. Not hers.
Big difference. As soon as you give her the power to decide the fate of it. Its end game. Loss of leverage.
Relationships are about leverage and power.
 

oldmanofthesea

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Well let’s think about this critically. Let’s say that you approach her, she’s attracted in the moment, there are no windows to escalate, so you number close. And then she categorizes you as a relationship guy. Now here’s the problem......

In order to qualify for a relationship you need other factors such as commonalities, wavelength, chemistry, proximity, connection, and a myriad of other elements I might be missing.

Now we come full circle. She already has guys in her ecosystem that have all of these elements. Even if she doesn’t, YOU don’t have those elements working for you.
My goal in approaching is to have an interaction where I can qualify her, to see if we have these elements, before I proceed with a date request. I also don't see why getting her number in an environment where the opportunity to escalate doesn't exist means I'm a relationship guy. It's the only option available in that case and the number could be used to setup a hookup only. I do understand your points in general though. And I agree there is much truth to them but I don't think it's black and white.

Anyway, to tie this back to the point of the thread, I still think there is a good discussion to be had by comparing LMR to light first-rate resistance. And I'm not talking about a "No I'm not interested." I'm talking about, perhaps: Exchanging a couple texts and she goes dark so you ping her back after a week or two. If still no response then you next. Etc.
 

oldmanofthesea

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Big difference. As soon as you give her the power to decide the fate of it. Its end game. Loss of leverage.
Relationships are about leverage and power.
But unless your experience is quite different from mine, I don't have 8s and 9s throwing themselves at me. I have to ask them out. Therefore, in that act alone, I'm giving her the power to decide the fate.
 

stringpuller

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But unless your experience is quite different from mine, I don't have 8s and 9s throwing themselves at me. I have to ask them out. Therefore, in that act alone, I'm giving her the power to decide the fate.
Hmmmm i tend to believe game is game. Nature is nature weather its two 3s or two 8s?
 
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