Bbrad's comments on confident persistence

[ubercat]

Well I ve posted the std warnings about your mental health and immortal soul. So let's go there.

There is plenty of research that shows women r more open to new lovers based on their ovulation cycle. So there s a reason to persist ask enough times and u might hit the magic week. The same research says they're more open to adventure so maybe adventure dates.

Which is a nice segueway. Women have a big emotional override. If u can sell the date so she s excited all those tactics might get dropped.

 

[samspade]

A lot of guys are way too quick to next. They don't realize that IOIs aren't always overt and sometimes seem like mild rejection. Until she gives a hard "no" she hasn't rejected you. That's her job, plain and simple. It's your job to take your shot. I think the "low interest" mantra on SS is one of the most overused responses and excuses. The caveat is that you go by feel and YOUR interest. (I've made the mistake of pursuing for pursuit's sake. If you don't feel the chemistry, don't bother.) The other caveat is you should be socializing with many women at once so if one's on the back burner it's no big deal. In fact, none of this should be a big deal. It's all about dialing down the ego.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

I can't argue with any of those points @stormrider , because I agree with you.

In absense of a social circle that delivers a steady, fresh rotation of 7s and above, I still have to cold approach if I want to continue meeting women I'm attracted to. Accordingly, I seek to refine my tactics to get the best results I can, with the highest value women I can find. I accept the down-sides of this approach because I have to - I have no other options.

@samspade I agree, and also agree with your caveats. There should be low investment placed on these attempts.

 

[samspade]

The best place for this to occur is obviously a shared social environment where she sees you more than once. An environment where she gets to see you demonstrate high value (dhv) by leading and acting dominant within the context of a social hierarchy (like a high school, social tribe, job, etc).

You say this often, for good reason, and I agree with you.

But I've incorporated a paradigm shift wherein my social environment, my universe, consists of wherever I am at any given time.

I don't go out with the specific intent of approaching women. But if I'm in a cafe or a store running errands, I consider that part of my ecosystem, to use your word. That's in addition to the more specific activities I partake in. Ergo if there's a woman I might find interesting, I'll talk to her. Some might call that an "approach" but I consider it day to day normal activity. If I get her number, cool. I might just as easily chat up an old man.

I think if more guys stopped thinking "Approach! Talk to her, you fool!!" they'd socialize more naturally. For me, leaving the house simply to approach women results in the wrong mindset. Talking to women should never be a chore. Like you said, some guys are good at it and it's their hobby, more power to them. As I've let go of that mindset I've shifted to something more natural for me.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

You say this often, for good reason, and I agree with you.

But I've incorporated a paradigm shift wherein my social environment, my universe, consists of wherever I am at any given time.

I don't go out with the specific intent of approaching women. But if I'm in a cafe or a store running errands, I consider that part of my ecosystem, to use your word. That's in addition to the more specific activities I partake in. Ergo if there's a woman I might find interesting, I'll talk to her. Some might call that an "approach" but I consider it day to day normal activity. If I get her number, cool. I might just as easily chat up an old man.

I think if more guys stopped thinking "Approach! Talk to her, you fool!!" they'd socialize more naturally. For me, leaving the house simply to approach women results in the wrong mindset. Talking to women should never be a chore. Like you said, some guys are good at it and it's their hobby, more power to them. As I've let go of that mindset I've shifted to something more natural for me.

This is exactly my approach to it. I tried approaching with the sole intent of approaching a while back and while I did meet a girl that way who I'm still dating, ultimately it was not worth the time. One weekend I spent hours walking around and not finding any approach-worthy girls so since then I do exactly as you do, though I do make an effort to put myself out there more. Meaning, on days when I work remote, I choose to do it at a coffee shop instead of at home. I go to some fitness group events to exercise instead of always exercising on my own, etc. I view this as natural, and if a girl catches my eye, I'll talk to her. I meet a fair number of girls at the grocery store, simply because I'm often there lol.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into an approach vs social circle debate. I understand the pros and cons of both. I'm more interested in how pushing past LMR relates to pushing past a girl playing hard to get around dates 1-3, or spiking her interest enough to get that F2F date.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

LMR has nothing to do with flakes because it’s not within the context of sex. You are not tripping up her ASD and creating LMR by asking her out. There’s nothing taboo about it.

Yes of course. That's not my point. You are looking at it too literally. My point is that it is understood that men must push through LMR, yet men are also told to hard next a girl at the first perceived sign of anything below high interest. If men took that same approach to LMR, they wouldn't get laid. So why be so quick to next a girl who may only be playing hard to get or who may have only medium interest because she hasn't yet had the OPPORTUNITY to meet you. It's a man's job to lead. You are trying to lead her to you.

She is not even playing hard to get. In her mind she is not playing any game with you. She just isn’t into you enough based on that short 5 minute interaction.

That's one of many possible reasons, absolutely. There could be others though. And regardless, the point still stands as to whether or not it makes sense to push, and how far.

My most successful cold approaches have always been the ones where I go on an instant date and things escalate romantically. She gets to vet me in real time. In a way, I’m kind of cutting in front of the line by creating the situation myself. This way, comfort and trust is created face to face. I don’t have to rely on text game to magically create it. That would be wishful thinking.

I've been wanting to try instant dates myself but logistics never allow for it. I like the idea though. Get the time with them while their emotions are spiked and you'll not be so quickly forgotten.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Great post @stormrider

So you don't think any girls ever follow "The Rules", which suggests sometimes not responding. And you feel that a guy should never, not even once in 7-14 days, double text? And if she says, "Yeah I can probably do Thursday at 8" you should demand she says "I can definitely do Thursday at 8". And if she says she needs to reschedule but doesn't suggest an alternate day on her own volition, you hard next her instead of asking her what other day would work? See what I'm getting at? There's a thick grey line here.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

It doesn't tell women not to respond

I need to check again but I'm 99% certain it said to occasionally not return a call or message.

I agree with the rest of what you said though. Right up to this.....

If she needs to reschedule and doesn't suggest an alternate day on her own volition, then the ball is dropped. The game is over. It's a "soft" rejection. Her way of allowing you to maintain some dignity while telling you "no thanks". Take it as a hint and don't embarrass yourself.

Well, it's not that I disagree with this but this is actually a lot quicker nexting strategy than I and most others here employ. It seems most people will at the very least hit the ball back to her court by asking her when she's free to reschedule and then leave it at that if she doesn't offer a suggestion.

 

[Trump]

He says women with medium interest (and even some with high interest) will do that (and I agree) and it's up to you to get a F2F audience with her to turn her interest level up through interaction.

What is a F2F audience?

So I'm curious to hear from guys who feel they aren't quick to next a girl.... Has it actually paid off, and if so, how often?

I won't next a girl unless she makes it really difficult or insults or schemes.

What guidelines do you set for yourself to be persistent while also avoiding falling into the time-wasting trap, or the chasing trap?

Just go with the flow.

For me, I think the only girl I successfully broke the rules with was a really cute 23yo I dated for a couple weeks. She ended it without good reason so I let it go.

According to you, she had no good reason.

According to her, she had excellent reasons.

Except for her, before I was game aware, persistence never paid off for me so I haven't really tried it.

If I wanted a kid, I may persist to get a girl under 25 pregnant.

Other than that, I wouldn't massively persist with any girl. These girls are a dime a dozen. Flash a little cash (or don't) and you'll get someone younger and hotter the next day.

That's why we say don't build an emotional connection with women and keep rotating plates. Because as soon as they figure out you are emotionally involved, game over.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Ok we are getting down to very specific use-cases now but this is the line of debate I wanted to have and you are making great points, so having said that.....

How can you hit the ball back to her court, when's she dropped the ball? The ball is still in HER court, lol. Telling you she is busy without a counter offer is dropping the ball. For you to ask her for a counter offer is like picking up a second ball and hitting it to her again.

Take for example, a girl who texts you first thing in the morning on a day when you were going to have a date in the evening. She says something like, "Hey I caught a nasty could from my friend's daughter over the weekend so I think we are going to have to re-schedule."

Are you really saying you just don't respond to that at all or you say, "Sounds good" and you leave it at that?! If it's a plausible reason like described above (as opposed to "hey, something came up and I can't make it tonight" which I would view as a clear rejection and not even bother responding to), and she specifically states "reschedule," it could be true. She could also be feeling ill, but not so ill that she absolutely couldn't see you and she wants to see you so is taking your temperature as to how big a deal it would be to reschedule vs just going through with the date tonight even though she isn't 100%. To me, a text like that doesn't necessarily indicate a soft rejection. I would counter by asking her to let me know when she feels better and we can set something up. Over the past few years, if I did this and never heard from the girl again, that would be the end of my "pursuit." But lately I've been questioning if it would make sense to reach out just one more time in a week or two to see if she's just forgotten, been really sick, just got busy, or is in a better state of mind/hormones to want to get together. Yes, I agree with you that women are perfectly capable of setting up dates themselves, but you know how they are... they tend to live in the moment based on their current feelings and mood. Catch them on the right day and they will strike.

If you are sitting at a restaurant with a friend and you don't want desert, but your friend orders some and you see it and suddenly you are hungry again and you order some for yourself... that triggered your desire and your action.

I'll tell you again about my experience with the female dating forum. They do this on purpose because women in general have a hard time saying no or looking like the bad guy. They avoid confrontation whenever possible. In fact, most women actively look for ways to let guys down without flat out saying it. They have a hard time saying no. Go figure. One of the most often asked questions women always ask is "How do I give this guy a hint without looking rude?" And the answer is always "Just tell him you're busy." This is literally the number 1 excuse they use to avoid you. But on text and in real life. It is as universal as plausible deniability - where women give you an excuse to be alone with them.

Totally agree with this. I'd say maybe 1 out of 50 girls will flat out tell you they aren't feeling you. The rest all soft-reject you by being some form of "busy." But this is common knowledge here..... and it doesn't mean that ANY cancellation without immediate inclusive reschedule offer means it's a rejection. Especially if the reason is plausible. At least, that's my opinion, and it is subject to change as I continue evolving.

If the average attractive women go on 50+ dates a year, its not an oversight that she forgot to give you a counter offer. Look no further than this very board. Every single situation where the woman didn't give a counter offer and the guy kept pursuing eventually ends up with the woman ghosting(but in reality she nexted him long before that). I challenge you to find one situation that didn't happen, lol.

I haven't posted about it here, but I've had experiences that run the gamut.
1. Have had a girl not give a counter offer with her reschedule request, but when I suggested another day or asked her for another day, she gave it to me and we went on the date and we dated for a while. I will admit, while this has happened, it hasn't been common.
2. Back when I was blue-pilled, I had a girl say she wanted to reschedule but when I asked her for a day, she said she'd have to get back to me. I checked back one more time a week later and she was still unsure. Obviously knowing what I know now, I wouldn't do this - if she says she will get back to me, I leave that ball in her court. Sometimes they DO get back to me, though it's not that common.
3. Have had girls request to reschedule and immediately throw out a couple days/options

If you want to talk percentages though, I agree that it's statistically a bad sign when a girl re-schedules, and statistically even worse when she doesn't immediately throw out another date. Any time that happens, I immediately assume it's over, but I'm not going to just ghost.

 

[sangheilios]

I haven't read through all of the posts on this thread, so here is my take on this.

Speaking for myself personally, I have in fact persisted with women that seemed at least somewhat interested. For instance, I've had women agree to dates and ask me out but cancel the date, but then continue to stay in touch with me. I've had women reject me but later continue to approach me and encourage interaction. All of these women behaved in a manner that did suggest there was at least some sort of intrigue on their end, as they wouldn't be engaging with a man that they were completely turned off by.

However, I NEVER ended up going out with any of those women and had NOTHING come from any of those experiences. I used to take this personally, but after enough of these experiences and the observations I made with these particular women, I don't actually feel this is the case. I feel that these women are behaving in a manner like a shopper would, where there are an abundance of products and tons of salesmen but at the end of the day she only needs one. These women will do stuff like this with multiple men at a given time, and they do this in order to find the best men for them. I feel like this is a fairly normal trait for women to have, though our current dating market has allowed this to get out of control and made women excessively picky.

Now, with all of this I actually do not think men should really persist with women like this, and if they do decide to do so they need to realize that most likely nothing will come of it. I also feel like a big issue here is that you'd be encouraging me to persist with women who may actually have literally 0 interest. In situations like this the guy would come across like a creepy stalker and could possibly get into trouble. There are a lot of women who do in fact toy with men, whether or not this is a conscious thing on their end or not I am not sure, so if you are going to persist you need to be able to learn how to spot legitimate attention *****s from those who aren't.