A re-introduction

[user2827]

I first found this forum a long time ago, it helped me realize how to change myself from the shy introvert to at least not socially retarded.

Ultimately, I wound up meeting something of a unicorn (good looking, fit, no tattoos or unconventional piercings, and a good family) after a few years we wound up married. Now, I'm not out looking for sympathies, but after just shy of 13 years together, she passed away fairly recently. It's unfortunate, but things that I took as growing frustrations was actually the illness growing, and it was only realizing the seriousness far too late.

Now, including some less than ideal coping methods, I've been spending the past few months in catching up on issues with the house that were slipping through the cracks because of circumstances. Ultimately, I have to accept the fact that, while I still want to have a family that, it's not a rush, but it's also not something I can afford to out off. This isn't something I can talk about with anyone in her family (which includes many of my non-work friends).

So, first, we can debate on how much I'm an ******* thinking of these things while my wife has only been gone a few months. It's just that rationally, I still have a time where I could start a family, even though the time isn't long before I should just resolve myself as looking for a companion.

I never was unfaithful with my wife, just like I am 100% confident that she couldn't flirt with a guy without at least a pang of conscience where she was likely to confess. However, there are a small group of women who I would regularly encounter who I would flirt with, but in a nmfriendly and non-committal way.... some I know are in relationships, and well, I have this thing about not getting punched in the face, I just don't like it and would prefer avoid it where possible. However, short of opening a wide net and actively putting myself out there, that will be something of a learning curve, these women represent solid first options to try knocking at that door to see if it might creak open.

The funny thing is, even though these women in mind are unlikely to have known, I've found that when it comes to actually putting it out there, I've been choking 100% of the time.

The worst case is one woman that I run into a few times a month, I took the half step to ask her name when she just added how long we had been chatting, her planned education, and how long before she would start shifting to fewer times where I would run into her... I'm embarrassed to say how long after that encounter it was that she might have giving a sign, and if it was a sign, it was not a subtle one.

Anyway, about myself. I'm early 40s, engineer, mortgaged home, dog, reliable vehicle. Reasonably fit, though 20lbs to lose. Until I was 25, I would get I'D for chocolate bars, now, I'm greying before my time, but not bald.

I'd rather avoid a complete tldr as an intro, so, please shoot some questions.

Please don't bother with condolences unless it's part of a separate comment or question, I appreciate the sentiment, but it's been a struggle to know how to respond to them with people who are also feeling the loss, nevermind people who are effectively strangers.

 

[UK manc]

You sound fairly similar to where I was a few months ago, having left a long relationship...

You know all the good stuff is there in the back of your mind, but you end up applying it like some stuttering 17 year old. The good news is that you don't need to bother with Online Apps (imo) as people have moved from on from thinking a 2-D picture will help them find someone.

This one woman you mention.. I'd assume it's going nowhere but you should still see if she'd "like to stay in touch" if she's moving on somewhere new. Small steps.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Please don't bother with condolences

Let yourself grieve, man. What happened to you was awful. You're stuck in denial and haven't moved through all the stages of grief. And women can tell. Give it time and let yourself heal.

 

[user2827]

Let yourself grieve, man. What happened to you was awful. You're stuck in denial and haven't moved through all the stages of grief. And women can tell. Give it time and let yourself heal.

Thanks, it probably doesn't read like it, but yes, I have been focusing on taking the time to grieve, to reset. The dog has been one of the main sources of stability, since the dog doesn't care whether or not I'm in the mood, she still expects food on her schedule, the walks, and attention.

 

[user2827]

You sound fairly similar to where I was a few months ago, having left a long relationship...

You know all the good stuff is there in the back of your mind, but you end up applying it like some stuttering 17 year old. The good news is that you don't need to bother with Online Apps (imo) as people have moved from on from thinking a 2-D picture will help them find someone.

This one woman you mention.. I'd assume it's going nowhere but you should still see if she'd "like to stay in touch" if she's moving on somewhere new. Small steps.

I've never liked dating apps, after enough encounters where someone had a nice photo but then could barely fit in their own vehicle. Then there's the conflicting motivation, they say they want to match people, but every couple that results from the apps is 2 less customers. Sure, some guys can get results, but for guys like me, it's mostly an exercise in frustration.

As for that woman, given the enthusiasm with which she greets the dog when circumstances allow, and the way that she will offer more information about herself than is asked. I could be reading it wrong, but I kind of see it as an invite to ask, and I read the mention of moving on as being something of a ticking clock, as in "you should ask sooner than later or you'll miss the shot". So, I'll see her and think, "just ask and get a firm yes or no" but then it just becomes some mild flirting and then continue on (or, in my mind choking).

 

[Prepostereax]

Don't put too much stock in this
(other than that you are a guy these women enjoy flirting with):

there are a small group of women who I would regularly encounter who I would flirt with, but in a nmfriendly and non-committal way.... some I know are in relationships

Some women enjoy flirting for fun, and don't mean anything further.
Huge difference between flirting and dtf signals

But treat it like fun and practice

 

[Bible_Belt]

As for that woman, given the enthusiasm with which she greets the dog...

Just find a dog friendly nature hike and ask her to go with the two of you. Free date. Super easy.

 

[user2827]

Don't put too much stock in this
(other than that you are a guy these women enjoy flirting with):


Some women enjoy flirting for fun, and don't mean anything further.
Huge difference between flirting and dtf signals

But treat it like fun and practice

Absolutely, especially where the flirtation is fun, friendly, and non committal. The thinking was more along the lines that these would be women where, given the rapport, would be a rejection more likely in the form of a "thanks but no thanks".

 

[user2827]

Just find a dog friendly nature hike and ask her to go with the two of you. Free date. Super easy.

That was more or less what I would aim for... now, this may be where I think you might have hit close to the target, that my inability to take that shot might just be the part of me that's still recognizing that I've not given myself adequate time.

 

[Ricky]

Start talking to women you aren’t interested in as batting practice. You can even find a few female friends this way. Although i need to write a whole post on female friendships and how they can sometimes be more frustrating then romantic relationships

every woman would understand why you dont look for something serious right now but no doubt several will want something serious

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

Firstly, welcome...or welcome back. As you know the beauty of this place on the internet is that we are anonymous right? So things can be discussed with a certain candor and without having to worry about the political correctness required in a person or group closer to your actual life, and thats brilliant really.

Right now you've got several things to navigate, obviously the grief thing, and time is your friend there. Be patient with yourself there. Sit quiet with it at times, focus and be daily grind task oriented at times, and it will process.

As far as dating/women/starting a family, my advice may sound a little weird, but hear me out....Integrate back into social circulation, its a skill where you are rusty, and that too will take time. Be honest about being rusty if you are chatting with a woman you fancy.

Just say "You know, I am a bit rusty, I lost my partner/wife (whatever is natural for you) recently, and I'm just figuring life out, but it would be nice to get to know you....."

What a statement like that does is explain the how/why you are awkward (if you are), and it is a bit vulnerable too, which is something a caring woman will understand, and a caring woman will be understanding and kind to you after that kind of a statement.

If she says "I'm so sorry", say Thank you, its life, and move on. Don't dwell, and if she asks, say you'd rather not discuss or give a simple one word response, and change the subject. Ask her why she likes coming here, how her day is going etc.

If you get to know someone a bit, be open about wanting a family. Put it out there. Again you are being genuine here, and yes, taking a little risk, but.....you are also in doing this efficiently screening for women who are caring and have values aligned with yours.

Try not to over analyze everything. Try to exist with an inner calm, and having a framework (like what I am suggesting or something else you come up with) will relax you so interactions flow authentically.

Does that make sense? I have a friend who recently lost his wife to serious illness, and another friend who lost his college aged daughter to serious illness recently. Both men want to be treated as normal dudes by others and they'll talk about what they went through if it strikes them to do so, and if they trust that people around them are cool & its just life & what happened.

So give yourself a framework and permission to be honest. That will take you a long way.

 

[ludovic991]

I'm curious about something: when you say you choke, is it because you're worried about rejection, because you don't want to make the woman uncomfortable, or because you genuinely don't know how to transition from friendly conversation to showing romantic interest? Those are three very different problems, and the solution depends on which one it is.

 

[user2827]

Start talking to women you aren’t interested in as batting practice. You can even find a few female friends this way. Although i need to write a whole post on female friendships and how they can sometimes be more frustrating then romantic relationships

every woman would understand why you dont look for something serious right now but no doubt several will want something serious

Generally speaking, men and women can't really make friends... exceptions are things like where there's no attraction one way or the other, being friends with the husband and wife, or similar.

In that sense at least, I'm fortunate enough where I'm not restarting from zero at least.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

 

[user2827]

Advice from the old lady:

Firstly, welcome...or welcome back. As you know the beauty of this place on the internet is that we are anonymous right? So things can be discussed with a certain candor and without having to worry about the political correctness required in a person or group closer to your actual life, and thats brilliant really.

Given that it's meant to be a discussion, mainly for men, to understand dynamics of dating... that's going to need to have some candor and sometimes some tough love. Especially where part of the goal is to help people help themselves, coddling can easily become counterproductive.

Right now you've got several things to navigate, obviously the grief thing, and time is your friend there. Be patient with yourself there. Sit quiet with it at times, focus and be daily grind task oriented at times, and it will process.

As far as dating/women/starting a family, my advice may sound a little weird, but hear me out....Integrate back into social circulation, its a skill where you are rusty, and that too will take time. Be honest about being rusty if you are chatting with a woman you fancy.

Just say "You know, I am a bit rusty, I lost my partner/wife (whatever is natural for you) recently, and I'm just figuring life out, but it would be nice to get to know you....."

What a statement like that does is explain the how/why you are awkward (if you are), and it is a bit vulnerable too, which is something a caring woman will understand, and a caring woman will be understanding and kind to you after that kind of a statement.

If she says "I'm so sorry", say Thank you, its life, and move on. Don't dwell, and if she asks, say you'd rather not discuss or give a simple one word response, and change the subject. Ask her why she likes coming here, how her day is going etc.

If you get to know someone a bit, be open about wanting a family. Put it out there. Again you are being genuine here, and yes, taking a little risk, but.....you are also in doing this efficiently screening for women who are caring and have values aligned with yours.

This more or less aligns with my thinking, in a sense isn't too much different from one of the first experiments I was performing to get over the shyness factor. (At the time was just spent an afternoon walking the mall and whenever I'd see an attractive woman would approach saying "Hi, I'm just doing a small experiment to help me get over the fear of approaching women that I find attractive. Thanks for participating." Then keep walking.... most would say thanks or giggle or have this weird look like they didn't get the joke, and a few turned me back around to keep talking.)

Also, being that kind of forthcoming, IMO, is at least comparable to someone starting a relationship and not mentioning that they have kids. It doesn't necessarily need to be the first topic of discussion, but it's not a topic that should be avoided much later than a second date because it represents significant details of your life that will ultimately impact the other person on the longer term in some form or another.

Try not to over analyze everything. Try to exist with an inner calm, and having a framework (like what I am suggesting or something else you come up with) will relax you so interactions flow authentically.

Luckily I usually don't struggle to hard to get into that type of flow, I mean, after breaking the ice at least. Being a nerd at heart, and engineer, where a good portion of my profession is in analysis, it is something that I have to "turn off".

Does that make sense? I have a friend who recently lost his wife to serious illness, and another friend who lost his college aged daughter to serious illness recently. Both men want to be treated as normal dudes by others and they'll talk about what they went through if it strikes them to do so, and if they trust that people around them are cool & its just life & what happened.

I can relate to a point, the sympathies are generally appreciated, but after crying yourself dry, it shifts to where talking about them is trying to focus on the positive memories.

So give yourself a framework and permission to be honest. That will take you a long way.

Thanks, that's part of the challenge. The balance between taking the time needed to move forward while allowing the time to properly grieve. The balance of knowing there's not a real urgency to get back out there dating, but also knowing that delays can easily extend... as an analog, I knew I had to take some time to be able to get back in the frame of mind to work, but it was the day where taking that time started feeling like a vacation that I decided it was time.

 

[user2827]

I'm curious about something: when you say you choke, is it because you're worried about rejection, because you don't want to make the woman uncomfortable, or because you genuinely don't know how to transition from friendly conversation to showing romantic interest? Those are three very different problems, and the solution depends on which one it is.

Her comfort, not really, we've had enough rapport that I expect the most "discomfort" might be the shock of putting it out there and not expecting it...

The transition; perhaps a bit, less out of not being able to find the words, because ultimately short and too the point is the only way that doesn't risk shifting into rambling.

So, probably the rejection, not because I would anticipate a negative rejection, but more about the ego hit where I would be forced to accept that I had misread the situation and she was just being friendly the whole time. It would also likely tie to that this would be the first time actively putting myself out there in ~15 years.