26M just been friend zoned after therapy and taking a step back from the red pill for a while

[Samol11]

I'm a 26M from the UK who's just been friend zoned by a girl (23) I've been dating for just over 2 months.

Met her indirectly through work and said she could text me and subsequently asked her out on a date.

The obvious issue was lack of intimacy (we'd kissed once in 2 months), however she was shy and said she hadn't dated for 6 years, so I held back and was happy to, as everything else was so great.

For context: I've posted 3 or 4 times over the past 4/5 years, since I first discovered the red pill, each after a failed relationship/dating phase. It initially stemmed from when my first girlfriend of 6 months ended it because I was an immature, insecure little *****. I knew I had to improve myself.

I've spent the past 4.5 years trying (and I mean really, really trying) to improve myself in every possible way. The end goal of this was to ultimately find someone who I loved and who also loved me. As a byproduct of this I've transformed myself and my life immeasurably. My 21 year old self would be shocked at who am I today. I'm now in much better shape, train MMA regularly, far calmer, mature and have started to build a growing business with a lot of potential.

All of this and I've still failed my ultimate objective of finding love. I understand this can and should not be the crux of my life, but nevertheless, after 26 years without a long-term relationship, it's difficult sometimes not to gaze at the cows on the other side of the field.

After a failed short-term relationship 7 months ago, (again due to neediness and getting too attached), I made a firm decision to try something different yet again. This time by purging myself of dating apps, and beginning therapy. Objectively, it's been a good decision, I've been on dates with 3 different girls, all of which originated from in-person interactions (work/social related events). I've gained confidence and felt myself much more likely to talk and flirt with girls in person.

It seems quite easy to initially attract girls in person, but I always mess it up if I decide to take it further.

Ultimately, the same outcome has come about.

I'm left angry and frustrated at myself for not being able to build something with somebody. I'm left questioning if there's something wrong with me. I'm left questioning if 5 years of intense self-development has made any difference.

Despite all the progress:
- I'm still scared to cold approach in social settings.
- I'm still scared to ask for what I really want.
- I'm still scared to take what I want in life.

I'm scared that each failure is scarring me just that little bit more, and maybe subconsciously I don't think I deserve any of this.

This is difficult to type out, because the only thing I can deduce from the past 5 years is that I've failed. Yes, it takes two to tango. But, I've found in business, if you want something, you have to make it happen. I can't seem to internalise that with dating.

26 years of failed relationships and there's only one common denominator. ME.

It's a different issue each time. This time around, after the therapy, I was so much calmer, more secure, more confident in every other way. But, I failed to escalate and initiate. I myself questioned why it had been 2 months with just 1 kiss. I'd had wandering eyes elsewhere because of this lack of intimacy, but I stuck with it, because I really liked her and was genuinely attracted to her and the same of me. She was one of those good girls. One of those rare to find girls. One of those girls that bakes you a birthday cake and a bag of gifts after just 1 month of dating. I thought there'd be an aspect of loyalty and patience with girls like that. But no.

During my years of red pill awakening, I never once even got close to being friend zoned. I had sex with 5x more women in 6 months than I had in the previous 21 years. But, I was still insecure, and using this as a blanket to cover those insecurities deep down.

After trying a different approach, trying to just be myself for 2 months, ignoring any red pill advice, and even telling her about my red pill past, I'd developed a great connection with a great girl. A great FRIEND.

When she told me, I was shocked. I hadn't seen it coming. It happened at the end of a date after I had asked her to dinner with my family and she said it didn't feel right and she didn't want to attend if she didn't see it going anywhere.

I'm gutted. I'm upset. I'm angry.

After 5 years of immense progress in every aspect of my life, I'm back to square one.

This is a call for help. I don't know where to go from here.

I'm always looking for problems to solve, for ways I can fix things. But, I genuinely don't know how to fix me.

 

[BPH]

The obvious issue was lack of intimacy (we'd kissed once in 2 months), however she was shy and said she hadn't dated for 6 years, so I held back and was happy to, as everything else was so great.

I had sex with 5x more women in 6 months than I had in the previous 21 years.

I'm a little confused...you kissed your ex only once during 2 months of dating...but you've slept with more women in 6 months than in the previous 21 years of your life?

I would've said your problem is not being comfortable being intimate (which it sounds like you're aware of) - but that problem seems to be exclusive to the girls you're in relationships with?

 

[Samol11]

I'm a little confused...you kissed your ex only once during 2 months of dating...but you've slept with more women in 6 months than in the previous 21 years of your life?

I would've said your problem is not being comfortable being intimate (which it sounds like you're aware of) - but that problem seems to be exclusive to the girls you're in relationships with?

The girl I’d been most recently dating and friendzoned me was the kissed once in 2 months. The 5x girls was 3-4 years ago after my first girlfriend ended.

I find it difficult to want to get intimate with girls I really like and respect and see a long term. Other girls which I just want to have sex with but don’t care about, I have no problem escalating intimacy. Strange one…

 

[BPH]

The girl I’d been most recently dating and friendzoned me was the kissed once in 2 months. The 5x girls was 3-4 years ago after my first girlfriend ended.

I find it difficult to want to get intimate with girls I really like and respect and see a long term. Other girls which I just want to have sex with but don’t care about, I have no problem escalating intimacy. Strange one…

So it seems you have a mindset problem then...kinda like how girls WON'T sleep with a guy they really like, but are happy to jump in bed with a guy they aren't looking for a future with.

True Story: Met a girl like this my junior year when I transferred colleges and was living off-campus. Matched with this girl on a dating app, met up with her on campus, then drove her to where I was living to hang out. We hit it off, and it was getting hot and heavy, but she stopped me because she told me she thought I was a good guy and that she wanted to take things slow and get to know me better. I told her I wasn't looking for anything serious right now. Her response was, "Oh, ok then. Well then, let's have sex." Which we did.

I think you still put women on a pedestal - but only if you really like them. And when that happens, you think sex is immoral, or dirty, or reserved for special occasions, or whatever.

My suggestion to you would be to simply do whatever you were doing with the 5x girls 3-4 years ago, then get more serious with the ones who you enjoy outside of sex on the backend. That way, it might be easier for you to keep doing what you've already been doing as more emotions and attachment develop - rather than having that happen at the front end and feeling like sex needs to be "earned".

 

[Plinco]

I'm a 26M from the UK who's just been friend zoned by a girl (23) I've been dating for just over 2 months.

Met her indirectly through work and said she could text me and subsequently asked her out on a date.

The obvious issue was lack of intimacy (we'd kissed once in 2 months), however she was shy and said she hadn't dated for 6 years, so I held back and was happy to, as everything else was so great.

For context: I've posted 3 or 4 times over the past 4/5 years, since I first discovered the red pill, each after a failed relationship/dating phase. It initially stemmed from when my first girlfriend of 6 months ended it because I was an immature, insecure little *****. I knew I had to improve myself.

I've spent the past 4.5 years trying (and I mean really, really trying) to improve myself in every possible way. The end goal of this was to ultimately find someone who I loved and who also loved me. As a byproduct of this I've transformed myself and my life immeasurably. My 21 year old self would be shocked at who am I today. I'm now in much better shape, train MMA regularly, far calmer, mature and have started to build a growing business with a lot of potential.

All of this and I've still failed my ultimate objective of finding love. I understand this can and should not be the crux of my life, but nevertheless, after 26 years without a long-term relationship, it's difficult sometimes not to gaze at the cows on the other side of the field.

After a failed short-term relationship 7 months ago, (again due to neediness and getting too attached), I made a firm decision to try something different yet again. This time by purging myself of dating apps, and beginning therapy. Objectively, it's been a good decision, I've been on dates with 3 different girls, all of which originated from in-person interactions (work/social related events). I've gained confidence and felt myself much more likely to talk and flirt with girls in person.

It seems quite easy to initially attract girls in person, but I always mess it up if I decide to take it further.

Ultimately, the same outcome has come about.

I'm left angry and frustrated at myself for not being able to build something with somebody. I'm left questioning if there's something wrong with me. I'm left questioning if 5 years of intense self-development has made any difference.

Despite all the progress:
- I'm still scared to cold approach in social settings.
- I'm still scared to ask for what I really want.
- I'm still scared to take what I want in life.

I'm scared that each failure is scarring me just that little bit more, and maybe subconsciously I don't think I deserve any of this.

This is difficult to type out, because the only thing I can deduce from the past 5 years is that I've failed. Yes, it takes two to tango. But, I've found in business, if you want something, you have to make it happen. I can't seem to internalise that with dating.

26 years of failed relationships and there's only one common denominator. ME.

It's a different issue each time. This time around, after the therapy, I was so much calmer, more secure, more confident in every other way. But, I failed to escalate and initiate. I myself questioned why it had been 2 months with just 1 kiss. I'd had wandering eyes elsewhere because of this lack of intimacy, but I stuck with it, because I really liked her and was genuinely attracted to her and the same of me. She was one of those good girls. One of those rare to find girls. One of those girls that bakes you a birthday cake and a bag of gifts after just 1 month of dating. I thought there'd be an aspect of loyalty and patience with girls like that. But no.

During my years of red pill awakening, I never once even got close to being friend zoned. I had sex with 5x more women in 6 months than I had in the previous 21 years. But, I was still insecure, and using this as a blanket to cover those insecurities deep down.

After trying a different approach, trying to just be myself for 2 months, ignoring any red pill advice, and even telling her about my red pill past, I'd developed a great connection with a great girl. A great FRIEND.

When she told me, I was shocked. I hadn't seen it coming. It happened at the end of a date after I had asked her to dinner with my family and she said it didn't feel right and she didn't want to attend if she didn't see it going anywhere.

I'm gutted. I'm upset. I'm angry.

After 5 years of immense progress in every aspect of my life, I'm back to square one.

This is a call for help. I don't know where to go from here.

I'm always looking for problems to solve, for ways I can fix things. But, I genuinely don't know how to fix me.

I'm pretty sure you have some kind of guilt or shame attached to what you desire.

If you're in a situation around people, admitting to yourself that "I want this" and staying emotionally present, by either approaching or through conversation feels unnatural to you, the solution is you're going to have to force your way through that. You have to re-train your mind to think, "I want this. I'm okay for wanting this. I'm going to try to get this and that's okay too." without feeling any guilt or shame; provided you don't violate the rights of other people.

Think of it another way: You have the ability to meet your needs, you just have to bring it out of you what's already there by working on it.

 

[Mike32ct]

After trying a different approach, trying to just be myself for 2 months, ignoring any red pill advice, and even telling her about my red pill past, I'd developed a great connection with a great girl. A great FRIEND.

I also get the sense that you have a tendency to “over share.” You get too comfortable with someone and then want to share your entire story. No judgement here; I’ve done that more than a few times lol.

Being very open isn’t too bad with actual FRIENDS (female or male), but it can be a turn off to someone you like romantically/sexually, and it can lead you towards friendzone.

I would not mention a “red pill past” to a chick. That could definitely be a turn off to some women.

TLDR: Keep a bit of mystery for her to discover. Don’t lie, but let her enjoy discovering you and trying to figure you out.

 

[Samol11]

I'm pretty sure you have some kind of guilt or shame attached to what you desire.

If you're in a situation around people, admitting to yourself that "I want this" and staying emotionally present, by either approaching or through conversation feels unnatural to you, the solution is you're going to have to force your way through that. You have to re-train your mind to think, "I want this. I'm okay for wanting this. I'm going to try to get this and that's okay too." without feeling any guilt or shame; provided you don't violate the rights of other people.

Think of it another way: You have the ability to meet your needs, you just have to bring it out of you what's already there by working on it.

Appreciate the thoughtful response, thank you.

That makes a lot of sense. I'm most probably attaching the lingering feelings of "I'm not enough", so I self-sabotage into not believing I'm good enough to be asking for something, or receiving it. Possibly also fear of rejection.

I'm going to start being more intentional in being present and asking for what I want.

 

[Plinco]

Appreciate the thoughtful response, thank you.

That makes a lot of sense. Most probably attached the lingering feelings of "I'm not enough", so I almost self-sabotage into not believing I'm good enough to be asking for something, or receiving it. Possibly also fear of rejection also.

I'm going to start being more intentional in being present and asking for what I want.

I'm glad you're being honest with yourself.

Here's how you test my hypothesis: When you're out and about and see a woman you think is attractive, approach her and talk to her, let her know you want to go on a date with her. Your approach will probably be awful, but if I'm right, you'll feel much better with yourself afterwards.

Don't take my word for it, verify it for yourself.

 

[Samol11]

I also get the sense that you have a tendency to “over share.” You get too comfortable with someone and then want to share your entire story. No judgement here; I’ve done that more than a few times lol.

Being very open isn’t too bad with actual FRIENDS (female or male), but it can be a turn off to someone you like romantically/sexually, and it can lead you towards friendzone.

I would not mention a “red pill past” to a chick. That could definitely be a turn off to some women.

TLDR: Keep a bit of mystery for her to discover. Don’t lie, but let her enjoy discovering you and trying to figure you out.

Thanks Mike for the thoughtful reply - completely agree.

Oversharing is a bad habit, when I start to like and feel comfortable with a girl.

I'm kind of conflicted though, I want to be able to be myself around girls, but I known there's parts/elements I must suppress, which is difficult for me to accept.

Would it be worth reframing it like wearing a mask at work, and thinking about how you want to be portrayed by different people, or is that the toxic, manipulative way to be thinking about it?

Or how would you reframe it?

 

[Mike32ct]

Thanks Mike for the thoughtful reply - completely agree.

Oversharing is a bad habit, when I start to like and feel comfortable with a girl.

I'm kind of conflicted though, I want to be able to be myself around girls, but I known there's parts/elements I must suppress, which is difficult for me to accept.

Would it be worth reframing it like wearing a mask at work, and thinking about how you want to be portrayed by different people, or is that the toxic, manipulative way to be thinking about it?

Or how would you reframe it?

I probably wouldn’t think in terms of a “mask.” I would think of it as managing your reputation. We do this at work. It also matters in your dating life.

Women automatically do this. They are keenly aware of how they might be perceived.

 

[Clockwerk50]

Your current shortcomings are unrelated to "unplugging" from the red pill. The reality is that the red pill's main premise is to educate men on general relationship dynamics, how women tend to behave when they are dating and in relationships, and how men should act accordingly. In other words, it kills the Disney fantasy that you should be focusing on one woman while she potentially has multiple prospects moving through her pipeline. Anything beyond that is just weaponizing the information, looking for an enemy to the point that it ultimately becomes masochism.

As with all of these topics, there is a ton of information that is probably missing, and every piece of advice is ultimately a shot in the dark without knowing the full context. I’ll put my chips in and say you landed in the friendzone due to a lack of progression in the relationship. Two months, one kiss, and you were still holding back because she was shy. Whether she was genuinely interested but cautious, or simply enjoyed your company without feeling enough attraction, the end result was that the relationship remained platonic instead of progressing into something romantic and sexual where you became a lover.

As to why that happened, I don’t know. Maybe you were too passive, maybe you were being too "nice," maybe she simply wasn’t attracted enough, or maybe she was never looking for the same thing you were.

Good luck.

 

[Samol11]

Your current shortcomings are unrelated to "unplugging" from the red pill. The reality is that the red pill's main premise is to educate men on general relationship dynamics, how women tend to behave when they are dating and in relationships, and how men should act accordingly. In other words, it kills the Disney fantasy that you should be focusing on one woman while she potentially has multiple prospects moving through her pipeline. Anything beyond that is just weaponizing the information, looking for an enemy to the point that it ultimately becomes masochism.

As with all of these topics, there is a ton of information that is probably missing, and every piece of advice is ultimately a shot in the dark without knowing the full context. I’ll put my chips in and say you landed in the friendzone due to a lack of progression in the relationship. Two months, one kiss, and you were still holding back because she was shy. Whether she was genuinely interested but cautious, or simply enjoyed your company without feeling enough attraction, the end result was that the relationship remained platonic instead of progressing into something romantic and sexual where you became a lover.

As to why that happened, I don’t know. Maybe you were too passive, maybe you were being too "nice," maybe she simply wasn’t attracted enough, or maybe she was never looking for the same thing you were.

Good luck.

I think it was a mixture of me being too passive and nice and then eventually the attraction waned. I'm confident there was attraction in the beginning, as there were overt hints of her wanting me to come over to her place, and I didn't take them - perhaps by then, it was too late.

How would you navigate these things in the future? I.e. making sure we're on the same page, wanting the same thing, making sure she's attracted to me, and not just using me for company. Simply a case of being more forward and asking? Or am I missing something? Am I caring too much too early on? I find it hard not to invest in someone when I'm dating them.

 

[Clockwerk50]

I think it was a mixture of me being too passive and nice and then eventually the attraction waned. I'm confident there was attraction in the beginning, as there were overt hints of her wanting me to come over to her place, and I didn't take them - perhaps by then, it was too late.

How would you navigate these things in the future? I.e. making sure we're on the same page, wanting the same thing, making sure she's attracted to me, and not just using me for company. Simply a case of being more forward and asking? Or am I missing something? Am I caring too much too early on? I find it hard not to invest in someone when I'm dating them.

You have to balance the right amount of rapport and escalation. To summarize, rapport is building comfort, connection, and mutual affinity with a woman, while escalation is progressively increasing the level of romantic and physical intimacy. The danger of an unequal balance between these two parameters is that too much rapport without escalation can eventually put you in the friendzone because the dynamic becomes predominantly platonic, while too much escalation without enough rapport can come across as forced or poorly calibrated.

Proper escalation requires some rapport to be established, as well as social calibration. Skilled men are aware when enough rapport has been built and know when they can escalate to the next step successfully. Basically, building rapport increases the chances that your attempts to escalate will succeed; therefore, a woman's interest and attraction to you is revealed by her receptivity and warmth when you attempt to escalate. Simply put, when you attempt to escalate, you give her an opportunity to show you how she feels about you in that particular moment. Is she receptive to your advances? If yes, great. If no, either you're moving too fast (not enough rapport, reading the vibe incorrectly, lacking social calibration) or she's simply not interested.

So, to answer your question, you need to escalate to avoid this mess again, and hopefully do it the right way.

 

[Samol11]

You have to balance the right amount of rapport and escalation. To summarize, rapport is building comfort, connection, and mutual affinity with a woman, while escalation is progressively increasing the level of romantic and physical intimacy. The danger of an unequal balance between these two parameters is that too much rapport without escalation can eventually put you in the friendzone because the dynamic becomes predominantly platonic, while too much escalation without enough rapport can come across as forced or poorly calibrated.

Proper escalation requires some rapport to be established, as well as social calibration. Skilled men are aware when enough rapport has been built and know when they can escalate to the next step successfully. Basically, building rapport increases the chances that your attempts to escalate will succeed; therefore, a woman's interest and attraction to you is revealed by her receptivity and warmth when you attempt to escalate. Simply put, when you attempt to escalate, you give her an opportunity to show you how she feels about you in that particular moment. Is she receptive to your advances? If yes, great. If no, either you're moving too fast (not enough rapport, reading the vibe incorrectly, lacking social calibration) or she's simply not interested.

So, to answer your question, you need to escalate to avoid this mess again, and hopefully do it the right way.

I can appreciate each scenario and girl are very different. But do you have any actionable advice that's worked for you in terms of escalating? I imagine a lot of it I do know, and have done before, but it was more of a mental block.

The more I like a girl, the less I seem to want to have sex with her, which obviously is what happened here - putting myself in a platonic relationship, which is not ideal at all.

 

[The Diver]

as there were overt hints of her wanting me to come over to her place, and I didn't take them -

Oh man oh man, this ^^^ was hard to read.
A woman you're dating invited you, a few times, to her place to have sxx , and you rejected her??!!
You have no idea what that rejection did to her. You opened her Insecurity Pandora's Box.
Now she's thinking maybe you're not attracted to her, maybe she's not pretty enough, maybe she's not good enough, maybe she's too fat, too skinny, too this, too that.
And most importantly, She's angry for humiliating herself by offering sxx and receiving rejection,
which most likely prompts her to end it.

 

[Clockwerk50]

I can appreciate each scenario and girl are very different. But do you have any actionable advice that's worked for you in terms of escalating? I imagine a lot of it I do know, and have done before, but it was more of a mental block.

The more I like a girl, the less I seem to want to have sex with her, which obviously is what happened here - putting myself in a platonic relationship, which is not ideal at all.

I think your biggest issue is self-consciousness. The more you like a woman, the more you get inside your own head worrying about how you’ll look or what might happen, instead of staying present and responding to what’s happening between you. That self-consciousness makes you hesitate, and your hesitation can create doubt because you’re failing to respond to the signals she is giving you.

There is plenty of information out there on escalation, including Vin DiCarlo’s Escalation Ladder, as well as material from various boards and forums. It’s also worth remembering that escalation is not only physical; it can be verbal too. Flirting, teasing, suggestive comments, and a little ambiguity can create romantic tension without having to spell everything out. For example, instead of keeping the conversation purely platonic, you might say things like, “You’re trouble, aren’t you?” “I’m starting to think you enjoy giving me a hard time,” “You always this charming, or am I getting special treatment?” or “Careful, you’re making it very easy to like you.”

Lastly, you may want to cut back on porn and masturbation if you think they’re contributing to your tendency to retreat into your head rather than engage with women in real life, if you want to go balls deep, and build stronger bonds, that is.