What attracts women breaks relationships

[tesla8520]

I found this great post on the forum, and thought it was a good point and thread to be discussed further.
Many of us have realised, after years of experience, that long-term seduction is exhausting, and not only that: it brings social connections with many people, yet perhaps you don't want that relationship with them, superficial, but you're actually seeking a deeper one, yet, as we grow, we seek more meaningful relationships. (there is a time for everything, so, each of us goes from these adrenaline rushes of hot and cold to wanting more stable and healthy relationships with others)

So, let's analyze the text carefully, which is an example of study, and try to make it coincide with real examples of modern relationships and how it works.

It is genetically wired into the female mammalian and reptilian brains to be attracted to strong males. Females would select the strongest male in the tribe or cave to mate with so as to produce strong offspring with the highest chance of survival. This is genetic self-preservation, Darwin's natural selection. The dominant male is assumed to have the genetic advantage and as thus be the best suitor. Self-preservation behavior is programmed into the brains of all animals. The female does not 'decide' to be attracted to the strong male; it is an unconscious reaction, just as the female is automatically repulsed by the weaker males who try - unsuccessfully - to mate with them. Whether by evolution, alien interference, act of God or cosmic accident, the female is designed to be attracted to whatever male displays characteristics of strength. The dominant male is also automatically assumed to be the best provider, especially where the male hunts and not the female.
In modern, more complex organisms, strength ties in with a larger concept of social status. For this example, I will use the example of the wolf pack. The alpha male uses his strength to attain social status as pack leader. This enables him to display the body language of the dominant one without challenge, which the females notice. The female wolves do not logically decide to be attracted to the head wolf, it is just that nature has made it so that the behaviors that the alpha male exhibits create attraction in the females.
After thousands of years of evolution and social programming, the mechanism still works.
Women are still attracted to strong men and men of social status. What has changed, however, is the definition of strength, and the criteria for social value.
Strength no longer means big muscles and the ability to drag home prey.
Modern strength is about independence, confidence, self-esteem, in other words, strength of character and emotional self-sufficiency.
Social status includes money, power, fame, popularity and of course, the specific kind of strength we just discussed.
As a result, certain types of behaviors that communicate strength and weakness can stimulate or diminish attraction in the female mind.
WHY NICE GUYS FAIL WITH WOMEN
Being Mr. Nice Guy unconsciously communicates weakness, because nice guy, ass-kissing behaviors are seen as neediness.

A strong man does not need a particular woman, a weak man clings to her.
A strong man psychologically or verbally disciplines a woman who steps out of line, a weak man doesn't stand up for himself because he is terrified of offending her.
A strong man does not see it necessary to try to prove himself worthy to a woman by being the perfect gentleman. The weak man acts as though he is a lowly candidate being interviewed for a job when he carries a girl out.
Very Important - Don't misinterpret me. Being strong and being a gentleman are perfectly compatible, as long as chivalry is not done in the spirit of neediness and desperation.
Being a jerk is just as bad, but it is more successful than being too nice, because not giving a damn about how a woman feels, as abusive and cruel as it is, is more conducive to attraction than neediness.
This is why women say that they want the nice guy and then go after the bad boy who drinks too much and doesn't exactly treat her like a princess.**
You cannot convince a woman that you should be her man because you would treat her the best out of all the other guys. I am sorry, it doesn't work that way. You cannot convince a woman to like you by subtly showing off what a great guy you are by displaying special talents or abilities, such as offering to play your guitar for her or reciting poetry. Such behavior is perceived as you trying to solicit approval, which is interpreted as unconsciously weakness.
If you ask a woman about these things, she might give you a blank stare, or say its bull, because all these things go on in a woman's mind unconsciously, in the older, more
primitive part of her brain. Women will admit, however, that they chase guys who are a challenge, and quickly lose interest in those guys who like them a little too much. However, they themselves do not know the psychology behind it, they just know how it works. It is as if they can drive, but they can't explain to you how the piston engine operates.
Here are some practical "strong man, weak man" scenarios.
The strong man leaves immediately if a woman is 15 minutes late, and does not call to find out what happened, because the ball is in her court. A weak man would wait for an hour then call 3 times trying to find out why she didn't show.
The strong man tells a woman that being on her cell phone all the time during a date is unacceptable, the weak man doesn't say a word.
The strong man calls a woman and ends the conversation after about 15 minutes and goes about his business, a weak man tries to keep her on the phone for as long as he can, thinking that long, drawn-out conversations will get him anywhere.
The strong man doesn't change the radio station if the girl says that she hates a song, as a matter of fact, he playfully turns it up a notch (Deangelo). The weak man apologizes profusely and changes the station even if he likes the song.
The strong man is not insensitive, rude, mean or self-centered. However, he does have self-respect, and does not idolize any woman.
SO WHAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR TRIGGERS ATTRACTION?
Being the modern, socially evolved equivalent of the dominant one.
Leaving her on the edge of her seat wondering whether you like her or not, instead of foolishly professing your undying love.
Teasing her to show that you have the sheer confidence to pick at her.
Being unpredictable and changing the amounts of attention you give her (almost ignore her one day, hug her the next).
Being confident and acting as though you already know for a fact that she likes you.
Asking her out in such a way so as to suggest that you already expect her to say yes.
Not calling her very often, cutting off all conversations after 15 minutes and ending all interactions first to show her that you have your own life, and don't need to be around her to find fulfillment.

We all agree on these: nature has given us an unconscious attraction towards some universal things.
In fact, there are elements in the opposite sex, that people are attracted by.
The elements are discussed above and need not be repeated.
So on an unconscious level there are fixed objective rules, plus some subjective ones, that attract us to certain people.
Now, once we have learned this, let's try to think in terms of relationships by giving concrete examples.

Text says women are attracted to on a subconscious level to Independence and strength of character.
How many relationships do you know in which the man is "avoidant" and the woman is "anxious" and this causes her to perceive this as "independence", and therefore, regardless of what she says (she might complain about her man because he comes home late, or that he is always busy and never present, or that he never listens to her, etc.), this signals to her that he is independent, but fundamentally, he is incompatible...a cycle is created that leads to a toxic relationship.
(I get the example of the mother who will always scold the "lively" child, but idolizes him behind his back with the other mothers, for how "lively" he is, while she picks up and snogs the "good" and "calm" child, and tells him not to become like his "lively" "little assh0le" brother).


Speaking of LTR relationships, in short the woman remains in a relationship with this "independent" man for years, while she gets validated by friends and family for the "pains and misadventures she goes through" with him, how "difficult" her time is, and convinces herself even more that she is doing well, while others tell her the opposite, to search for a better partner.
It's like going to theraphy just to vomit your thoughts, but not actually listen if the therapist has anything to tell you, as advice.

Let's go to the other elements, where social status is listed..
Personally, I can't really understand how this affects women, or how strong or relevant it is to them, having never experienced it myself, or having been able to feel what they can feel about it..but in my POV, I've seen women with rich men, but also with homeless men. So every woman here has a preference based on her subjective world, this means, what is really relevant is the one above: Strength. Independence. Character.

 

[tesla8520]

Strength, is the byproduct of those other elements.. in my opinion. If you have that, everything else can happen in life.
Status can come. Money can too.
So, what we should be discussing today… is not really “How do I gain social status” but “What are the true elements of modern strength, not just finding them, finding daily activities to practice them, and growing ourselves, but not just applying them to how we show ourselves to the world, but asking to ourselves, how to maintain and use these elements to have healthy, safe, valuable relationships with women, and all other people."

So we're not just talking about "becoming attractive" but about becoming whole and valuable, Having daily challenges of significant value that put us in a place where other people don't ignore our value, but above all, that allows ourselves to build the skills necessary for strength, independence, and character.


To simplify this, we could use real-life examples:

A person is the CEO of his company, dealing with customers, suppliers, employees, bankers, etc. He knows many people, is influential, and has character.
A person is a sports coach, a fitness trainer for children, dealing with children, adults, and people with disabilities. He knows many people, is influential, and has character.

You see... both of these men appear to be social, in demand, competent, and have their lives in order... but women won't be able to tell the difference between their two "characters," between the "strength" of one or the other... until... they've been in a relationship with them for more than 10 years, at that point they'll recognize.

Obviously, you've already figured it out. The first man appears more successful, but he's weak. The second man may have a more humble profession, but he's strong. The first man learned to become great by "seducing" others with validation, giving gifts, kissing their asses, using the carrot and the stick... he was never himself from the start. He is a fake. The second man learned to become great by "showing his worth" to others, encouraging them to do better, criticizing them where they went wrong, and giving them a path to self-improvement... he was always himself. He is true.

I'm a man, and I don't know how women feel when they see these two men, but the saying that women date rich, stable men and then desire other men refers precisely to this. But we can be sure of one thing: this saying doesn't apply to the men they desire themselves.
The relationship with these men they actually "desire" is truly different from the man they actually "want" or "have".
These men they "desire", are confident, lovable, strong in character, have value, skills, and are people who are admired...




Look at the relationships around you:
some women who complain about their men, they don't work out or go to the gym, they are *******s, they are always busy with their own business, but they actually love the fact that he provides for their lifestyle so that they can also flex on other women and enjoy it without "trying too hard" in life, since they only have to "keeping it attached" through sex, or control.
You don't want this woman, but you would say "hey OP, all women are like that.. really"..
But since you teach others how to treath you, so you don't want this relationship..


This type of relationship is the majority, and I am sure that "good" women can still be interested in elements of strength, such as independence and strength of character, even when these are not "aggressive", "passive", "avoidant", but are "decisive", "confident", "calm/peaceful"..
Like us men, I'm sure some women, more about the experienced ones, like those with kids or divorce in their baggage, actually have gained this wisdom. Some of them, recognize they've made the mistake, that following those "unavaiable" men, that are actually attractive to them, is not a game to play. I know, this is pretty rare, but you're a man and you can actually see if she has done the work.

I can see the primal, reptilian attraction that women have in response to certain qualities displayed by some men, and I can also see how some of these qualities make women insecure and unmanageable for LTR, therefore leading relationships to function on a basis of toxic attraction.


It doesn't really matter if the friend couples have been married for years and have this attitude,
It doesn't really matter if you see others creating it as a "subculture" of teasing.
It doesn't matter if you see a woman yell at her man and he put his tail between his legs, or worse, raise his voice at her and set the debate on fire.
It doesn't matter if you see people living happy lives.
When this type of behavior occurs, people "suffer", or feel "inadequate".
Treating women passively to appear independent makes you attractive and unavailable at the same time.

You are available, you are intact, you are centered on your life, you have a path, you are strong in character, you have limits, you have self-esteem. People don't know about these values of yours through your unavailable, avoidant, intrusive, domineering, manipulative behaviors, outbursts of anger, raising your voice, making fun of others, taking advantage of yourself.

They know it because you like to be curious, intimate, tolerant, charismatic, calm, a listener, and when they disrespect you, you let them know and never go back. Then that's where they'll feel like you've set a boundary, like you've put a fence around yourself. and that they will be there leaning against the fence, and will start to look at you in a different way: they will admire you.

I believe that a woman's brain can respond equally to both of these spheres of behavior. It doesn't make distinctions.
But taken on an objective level, they are too different from each other.

The first is an attractive but toxic man.
The second is an attractive but healthy man.

So, which one did you choose to be?
How do you see relationships of this type?
Think about it for a moment... a woman who always complains, who has an unhealthy communication style, is a deterrent.
It means that a man of worth, would abandon her as soon as she started doing this.
So if you see men in relationships of this type, it's because they haven't yet been able to value themselves.

 

[BaronOfHair]

@tesla8520 "Many of us have realised, after years of experience, that long-term seduction is exhausting, and not only that: it brings social connections with many people, yet perhaps you don't want that relationship with them, superficial, but you're actually seeking a deeper one, yet, as we grow, we seek more meaningful relationships"

A man ends up with almost zero relationships without "seducing" I.E. Learning how to persuade not just women, but EVERYONE to be more amenable to his wishes. The opposition that's arisen to something THIS self-evident over the past decade is the dude equivalent to 2nd Wave Feminism's meltdown over Charlie's Angels https://acidemic.blogspot.com/2015/12/camille-paglia-defends-charlies-angels.html?m=1

One's life is generally easier, if the opposite sex finds you appealing... That's more shocking than learning armies equipped with tanks, air power, missiles, and automatic rifles almost always trounce opponents who are armed with little more than spears and stones

 

[tesla8520]

A man ends up with almost zero relationships without "seducing" I.E. Learning how to persuade not just women, but EVERYONE to be more amenable to his wishes.

I thank you and respect your POV, but I cannot still convince myself about that..
What could you say to prove that is what makes men better out there?

It would just make you somewhere fake to have a facade to "persuade" people, and many people don't really like this "job"

 

[BaronOfHair]

It would just make you somewhere fake to have a facade to "persuade" people, and many people don't really like this "job"

If your "authentic self" is getting your needs and desires met, keep on as you have. Otherwise, it behooves you to modify your approach. Call that "manipulation", if you want

 

[tesla8520]

If your "authentic self" is getting your needs and desires met, keep on as you have. Otherwise, it behooves you to modify your approach. Call that "manipulation", if you want

This is a deeper discussion... I mean, it's not just about women, but everything, work, and other relationships-



This means that in "public" you are a "phony" person and you are a winner, a great man, seducer, with charm, charisma, etc.. blah blah.. you are a shining star.

Then in "private" you don't have an identity, precisely because in your long-term relationships you have to be sincere, precisely... a real man.
In this case your light is off, and not only that, the people who know you as a great "seducer" realize that there is something wrong with you..

Especially women.

That's why you think you have to be authentic both in public and in private, your star always shines with a light.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Bullshyte.

What attracts women keeps relationships strong.

Strong frame, pursuit of ambition, clear and unbreakable boundaries, decent communication skills, etc.

It's bending to the will of a woman that breaks relationships.

Make her chase you forever and you've nothing to worry about.

 

[OngBak]

Bullshyte.

What attracts women keeps relationships strong.

Strong frame, pursuit of ambition, clear and unbreakable boundaries, decent communication skills, etc.

It's bending to the will of a woman that breaks relationships.

Make her chase you forever and you've nothing to worry about.

See, it keeps the relationship strong, but not necessary healthy. It depends on the woman and most woman are broken. You can have strong frame, but hold frame about delusional things/lifestyle, you can have clear and unbreakable boundaries, but they can be based on control and not mutual benefit or healthy lifestyle f.e a relationship with a Narcissist where decent and manipulative communication skills are common

 

[Hoodie]

I found this great post on the forum, and thought it was a good point and thread to be discussed further.
Many of us have realised, after years of experience, that long-term seduction is exhausting, and not only that: it brings social connections with many people, yet perhaps you don't want that relationship with them, superficial, but you're actually seeking a deeper one, yet, as we grow, we seek more meaningful relationships. (there is a time for everything, so, each of us goes from these adrenaline rushes of hot and cold to wanting more stable and healthy relationships with others)

So, let's analyze the text carefully, which is an example of study, and try to make it coincide with real examples of modern relationships and how it works.

We all agree on these: nature has given us an unconscious attraction towards some universal things.
In fact, there are elements in the opposite sex, that people are attracted by.
The elements are discussed above and need not be repeated.
So on an unconscious level there are fixed objective rules, plus some subjective ones, that attract us to certain people.
Now, once we have learned this, let's try to think in terms of relationships by giving concrete examples.

Text says women are attracted to on a subconscious level to Independence and strength of character.
How many relationships do you know in which the man is "avoidant" and the woman is "anxious" and this causes her to perceive this as "independence", and therefore, regardless of what she says (she might complain about her man because he comes home late, or that he is always busy and never present, or that he never listens to her, etc.), this signals to her that he is independent, but fundamentally, he is incompatible...a cycle is created that leads to a toxic relationship.
(I get the example of the mother who will always scold the "lively" child, but idolizes him behind his back with the other mothers, for how "lively" he is, while she picks up and snogs the "good" and "calm" child, and tells him not to become like his "lively" "little assh0le" brother).


Speaking of LTR relationships, in short the woman remains in a relationship with this "independent" man for years, while she gets validated by friends and family for the "pains and misadventures she goes through" with him, how "difficult" her time is, and convinces herself even more that she is doing well, while others tell her the opposite, to search for a better partner.
It's like going to theraphy just to vomit your thoughts, but not actually listen if the therapist has anything to tell you, as advice.

Let's go to the other elements, where social status is listed..
Personally, I can't really understand how this affects women, or how strong or relevant it is to them, having never experienced it myself, or having been able to feel what they can feel about it..but in my POV, I've seen women with rich men, but also with homeless men. So every woman here has a preference based on her subjective world, this means, what is really relevant is the one above: Strength. Independence. Character.

My solution to this depends on what type of hypergamy women are attracted to longterm.
If you being above her socioeconomically, and overall success is what ensures longterm attraction.
Then you simply have to work on yourself and improve yourself until you're above her.

However, if her hypergamous attraction is mainly your position in the hierarchy in relation to other men.
Then I don't see why the percentage of top men wwon't simply continue to get lower and it will just get harder and harder until you one day get outcompeted.
Because let's say it's top 5% of men who are attractive today, since women can mostly choose whoever they want, why would an attractive woman pick a top 5% guy, if they could pick a top 1%, top 0.1% or top 0.01%?

If the second hypergamy is what women are attracted to and not the first one (Simply being above her socioeconomically and in status + other complimentary attributes), then it's just a matter of time until more and more men get pushed out of the market.
And you're fighting an uphill battle, because eventually there will be another guy out there that will outcompetes you, by the shear fact of getting older.

Summary:
If being above her is all that's needed to trigger her hypergamy that makes her stay loyal, then there is a chance for most guys.
If it's the second hypergamy she cares about the most, then it's just a matter of time until more and more guys get pushed out, as the criteria becomes higher and higher, while simultaneously more and more men are trying.

 

[BaronOfHair]

Bullshyte.

What attracts women keeps relationships strong.

Strong frame, pursuit of ambition, clear and unbreakable boundaries, decent communication skills, etc.

It's bending to the will of a woman that breaks relationships.

Make her chase you forever and you've nothing to worry about.

Bingo!!! That's what REALLY breaks up LTRs:

Couples stop doing what made them appealing to begin with

 

[RoadKing_Rabbit]

Classic misunderstanding of pretty much everything on DJ basics and fundamentals.

The whole "I don't ever want to be a 'PLAYER.'" or "Players never have healthy and happy relationships" or take your pick really.

Knowing how women operate and understanding their behavior as well as not reacting to it negatively or let it bother you that she is a woman and you are a man is not a hinderance to ANY relationship. Short term, long term, ONS, fling, marriage, plate spinning, playing and yes! Especially monogamous committed relationships. Knowing this stuff and understanding it leads to better relationships.

Far too many men can't wait to prove they are morally superior to a "player/badboy" while at the same time wishing that they had the attention of females like these "evil players." Wanting it both ways much? Often men are swearing that "if only she knew how willing I'd be the GOOD man" she'd pick MEEEE!!!" I really do get it.

What I also "get" is that I've done what less than 3% of men do in their lifetimes by age 20, 1% of men in America do in their lifetime by age 21, had a mortgage and wasn't living check to check by 23, have never allowed myself to get more than 30-40 lbs overweight, and FINALLY understood the basics of being a "DJ" by around 36.

What I "get" is that most men are NOT - WILLING - to do what men like me ARE - WILLING - to do! And that lack of self reflection and discipline to honestly tell yourself that "you ain' all that" (EVEN AFTER becoming a martial arts expert and a Marine Sergeant like I did!) is NOT an easy thing to do. Especially not if you're an accomplished individual in exceptional ways from other men. But it is essential. Even more so for an above average guy or high achiever.

If I CAN knock myself a peg down to improve, ANYONE *CAN! But the truth is, not everyone *WILL.

 

[plumber]

See, it keeps the relationship strong, but not necessary healthy. It depends on the woman and most woman are broken. You can have strong frame, but hold frame about delusional things/lifestyle, you can have clear and unbreakable boundaries, but they can be based on control and not mutual benefit or healthy lifestyle f.e a relationship with a Narcissist where decent and manipulative communication skills are common

who is the judge of healthy ?? seriously...

 

[tesla8520]

Bullshyte.



What attracts women keeps relationships strong.



Strong frame, pursuit of ambition, clear and unbreakable boundaries, decent communication skills, etc.



It's bending to the will of a woman that breaks relationships.



Make her chase you forever and you've nothing to worry about.

You frame it as if she were your daughter asking you to buy her the next dollhouse toy that just came out, and you refuse to do so and keep her on tenterhooks about it.



So you're saying that what attracts them—that is, everything that "distances" them from you and makes you a mystery—is the same thing that keeps them emotionally close to you, like having a friendship and an emotional connection.



"Clear and unbreakable boundaries"—when you say no, it's a no, and she either adapts or the relationship ends.



It's not for long-term relationships. Along the way, you'll need to know what a solvable problem is and what an unsolvable one is, and learn to understand that the latter can never be resolved. I know, compromise.



What do you think about this? (I see many couples where women have accepted the fact that they can't change certain things about their husbands, and they're accepting it.)



"



It's bending to the will of a woman that breaks relationships."



Explain what you mean by this... what are you referring to with examples?

See, it keeps the relationship strong, but not necessarily healthy. It depends on the woman, and most women are broken. You can have a strong frame, but hold a frame about delusional things/lifestyle; you can have clear and unbreakable boundaries, but they can be based on control and not mutual benefit or a healthy lifestyle, e.g., a relationship with a narcissist where decent and manipulative communication skills are common.

This is also my point of view, which I share.

But we're here to learn, because we see that out there, some of the things you don't want to work, actually do work.

Summary:



If being above her is all that's needed to trigger her hypergamy that makes her stay loyal, then there is a chance for most guys.



If it's the second hypergamy she cares about the most, then it's just a matter of time until more and more guys get pushed out, as the criteria becomes higher and higher, while simultaneously more and more men are trying.

Interesting.. so what are the factors you use to filter out what women are actually attracted to, and are only two types of that or more in your POV?

And FINALLY understood the basics of being a "DJ" by around 36.

So you think your life really changed after you understood "the basics," meaning you also understood the more "advanced" things.

Explain this better.



What are you "willing to do" that other men aren't willing to do, besides being aware that failures are the things that make you grow?

Knowing this stuff and understanding it leads to better relationships.

Also, what do you know about this that you think other men can't know and understand about it?

Who is the judge of healthy?? seriously...

I understand what you mean. The judge is what you consider too much drama or the way you'd like to be treated.

You don't do those things because you don't want them to be done to you.



I'll give a simple, banal example to explain this...
If you see an argument between a couple you know, and you see the man get angry, raise his voice, and become firm in his decision, and you hear the woman complain that he's an *******, but when tempers have calmed down, after a week, a month, etc., you see them still together, strong and loving, then you might assume that that behavior, even if toxic, is what you should do if something similar were to happen to you.
An intelligent person learns from the experiences of others and applies it.

Then you see this behavior repeated in other long-term couples, and you can't explain why these men who respond with arrogance, firmness, and don't give in to their wives' demands, are doing the right thing, when their wives complain about that decision for days, or maybe they have to accept it themselves, because they use it as an excuse when they're pissed off.

So as an intelligent man you say to yourself, if all these couples of men that you consider to be on the right path (but you consider toxic) do it, and these women stay with them, then there are two answers: either it is a confirmation bias, or these women actually react in that way, they carry it inside, but they stay in the relationship because that is the response that They wanted.

But you know, on an objective level, that response was toxic.

Here's the conversation @OngBak and I had about it.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

This is so common sense that I'm not sure how people don't understand this.

Surface level conduct only works with surface level relationships.

If you want to have any sort of deeper, meaningful relationship in your life you have to stop acting like a robot and start acting like a human being.

 

[BaronOfHair]

That's why you think you have to be authentic both in public and in private, your star always shines with a light.

Folks like these

might be the most represtative of humankind's "authentic self". If operating in a fashion that transcends this allegedly authentic self is now deemed "phony", so be it

"Keeping it real" doesn't attract much of anyone... Tough to then break relationships which don't even exist

 

[plumber]

I understand what you mean. The judge is what you consider too much drama or the way you'd like to be treated.

You don't do those things because you don't want them to be done to you.



I'll give a simple, banal example to explain this...
If you see an argument between a couple you know, and you see the man get angry, raise his voice, and become firm in his decision, and you hear the woman complain that he's an *******, but when tempers have calmed down, after a week, a month, etc., you see them still together, strong and loving, then you might assume that that behavior, even if toxic, is what you should do if something similar were to happen to you.
An intelligent person learns from the experiences of others and applies it.

Then you see this behavior repeated in other long-term couples, and you can't explain why these men who respond with arrogance, firmness, and don't give in to their wives' demands, are doing the right thing, when their wives complain about that decision for days, or maybe they have to accept it themselves, because they use it as an excuse when they're pissed off.

So as an intelligent man you say to yourself, if all these couples of men that you consider to be on the right path (but you consider toxic) do it, and these women stay with them, then there are two answers: either it is a confirmation bias, or these women actually react in that way, they carry it inside, but they stay in the relationship because that is the response that They wanted.

But you know, on an objective level, that response was toxic.

Here's the conversation @OngBak and I had about it.

Peace through strength.

Women will either want to change you or replace you. If they busy changing you then that's the focus.

 

[RoadKing_Rabbit]

Yeah, man. Thanks for asking!

"And FINALLY understood the basics of being a "DJ" by around 36."

^ That's one simple and essential concept of life uniquely esoteric to many cultures that have neglected to develop men from boys. Whether this is a failure of parenting, law or societal structure is a matter of heated debate. It's still common in many cultures by the way for a "man" (aged 15-17) to marry a "woman" around the same age. Or to have multiple wives. Seduction or knowing how to behave around women is not a nuanced topic of heated debate, rather it is just understood. It's understood as a simple healthy quality of being a man.

Not to oversimplify it, because we're hardly living in a remote African Village. But learning about what it is to be a man instead of suppressing much of what is actually seen by women as attractive and to be praised when you do by society is a huge problem. So what SHOULD have been basics for me weren't fully understood. I knew how to do certain things almost instinctively, but I still on occasion will lack confidence for no justifiable reason and at times I feel a slight 'twinge' from what used to be a major depressive inferiority complex.

I think many of young men's mental health difficulties (I'm not a mental health professional!!) could be sidestepped entirely if they had the confidence and knowledge taught to them from their father instead of figuring it out themselves IF THEY'RE LUCKY. So long and short, I didn't find "missing" puzzle pieces in the DJ bible until I was around 33-34. I did learn a few things, but I didn't know which things I was doing right and which things I was doing wrong. Let alone who to take advice from.

"So you think your life really changed after you understood "the basics," meaning you also understood the more "advanced" things."

I don't THINK my life really changed. I KNOW it did. It would be hard to believe me if I told you about who I was in highschool / college. I don't have thoughts of 'ending it all' because a girl 'broke my heart.' I started to understand that if I don't take the helm and start taking MY responsibilities in life seriously no one would ever take ME seriously.

I honestly don't think anything "basic" is really that much different from "Advanced." But to simply give an example here "eye contact, smiling, and saying something" is essential before you can "get a number" before you can "go on a date" before you can "have s3x." Sometimes you can skip steps or mess one up and still succeed in other ways. But before you've had some success in each of these areas, it's hard to understand.

"What are you "willing to do" that other men aren't willing to do, besides being aware that failures are the things that make you grow?"

^This one here? Oh man. I LOVE answering this. This right here is why MOST men will not find the success or make bigger goals for themselves.

I'm willing to put fun aside. I'm willing to work MORE than 40hrs / wk. I'm willing to not do drugs of ANY KIND. The closest thing to drugs I touch is the occasional whiskey or beer. I used to smoke, but no more. I go to the gym. REGULARLY. I read. I try to read and write more than indulging in hobbies that don't really develop character.

That doesn't mean I don't find it fun to blast someone with a fireball or to take out a few sentries with my Nightingale bow or to scream at a dragon, but that develops a GAME character and not my own. It's pixels and sounds coming from a rectangular display. Opening up the throttle, leaning back and watching the wheat on both sides of the road in my mirrors blow as I slice the air between them, winding through mountain roads.... AH! That's something that NO video game ever will match.

I became more when people told me I wouldn't. When people told me that I couldn't. When people told me that even SHOULDN'T want certain things for myself. I didn't go out partying all the time in my 20s. I wanted a CAREER. I wanted a place of my own! People, even older people laughed at that saying "You're just a baby." EFF THAT! I have NEVER, nor will i EVER treat a young man like he is a kid. That is severely lacking in America and I daresay ENTIRE modern western civ.

Police departments told me more of the same. "Too young," "Too scrawny" too this, too that. Not enough this, not enough that. Part of the selection process was an obstacle course. I set a record. But wasn't admitted to the academy. So I join Karate. I'm sick of people trying to pick fights with me or just bully me physically. True, I didn't always lose fights, but lost most of them. I weighed 115 at age 18 at the height of 5'10" ish? After Karate and a buffet of different martial arts I became obsessed with learning everything I could. Around roughly 3% of the male population on this planet EVER study a martial art. This includes wrestling and boxing btw. And even FEWER stick with it. Still was rejected by the law enforcement academy.

I'm glad I didn't become a police officer. I had had enough of people at this point. I kept proving myself and it still wasn't good enough for any job. Heck it was tough for anyone in 2005-2006 to find a job that wasn't food or retail. I did what I thought at the time was the biggest middle finger to a country I was starting to hate. I did the opposite of what anyone would ever do. I ENLISTED. Not in the national guard, not in the coast guard. I became a US MARINE. I didn't even want to be one as much as I wanted to prove everyone I'd ever met wrong. And I wanted to prove myself wrong that I was a nobody. Less than 1% of America joins military service and fewer than that earn the title Marine. My training platoon was 90 men. 46 of us made it. I was among them.

Drugs couldn't have gotten me there. Hedonism wouldn't have gotten me there. Listening to everyone wouldn't have seen me through. I DID. I didn't tell myself I couldn't, what I screamed from the inner wall of my soul is "WHY CAN'T I?!?!" That's a fire that has never gone out and I doubt it ever will. I'm built different, but most of that has come from me giving up certain things that people insist on having or doing. There's nothing wrong with enjoying something or even over indulging once every blue moon. But most men find an excuse or a 'losers limp' as to why they can't succeed. EFF THAT.

To THIS VERY DAY my peer group from my teens doesn't have the kind of track record I do. I used to go to our little reunions or miniature 'mancations,' but I stopped. Because there's only been one where HARD DRUGS weren't present. *shrug. I love those guys, but they aren't going to rise above that. Most of them are ok with it I guess. But that's not me. One buddy has seen the same amount of "success" I guess you could say and he's had mirrored ambitions like mine for the most part. I need to reach out to him. Heh. He doesn't do the hard stuff anymore. His life really improved and he's a lot happier now that he chose to give the same things up that I did.

"Knowing this stuff and understanding it leads to better relationships."

Knowing what to do with women when you're around them should be self explanatory as to why it would help you in a relationship. All of that life experience I mentioned almost comes with an interesting personality if you're not shy. Which I was VERY shy and introverted until I hit 26-28. And I STILL was shy around women until about 33. But this lived experience and making sacrifices to improve doesn't just lead to better jobs, bigger toys and a positive attitude. CHICKS DIG IT. You don't take a tennis racquet to a billiards table and you bring dice to a chess table.

"Also, what do you know about this that you think other men can't know and understand about it?"

^ I touched on this quite a bit. But to simplify, I don't THINK other men can't know it. I KNOW they can't. And the reason is because they aren't willing to let go of comforting mistruths. It's not comfortable or convenient to accept reality. Men who get themselves into terrible relationship after terrible relationship (if they're not in moms basement after 30 and playing DND and still virgins Ohhh I know some people man...) are exactly like people who sit in a burning house and say "I'm doing ok!" NO! NO YOU'RE NOT!!! lol

Or if someone comes along and says "hey mate, you need to pivot that back foot when doing a roundkick. That's why your knee hurts" they'd plug their ears and go "LALALALA, knees just fine" then years later they blow two of four cruciatic ligaments. You don't see people make those mistakes with certain things, but once you learn about being a DJ, watching some of the posts on here or watching someone out in the community screw up something so simple or when you hear men complain, whine and mope about their problems it's like trying to watch a bad driver on a security camera park!

It's like watching a junebug fly into things repeatedly! Most men sadly won't learn this stuff... Mostly because they choose not to. *shrug* They of course don't CHOOSE to be miserable. No one wants to go dateless or sexless. No one wants to be boring or ignored. Never chosen by a lady. But what leads to these depressing outcomes is choices. That's it.

 

[tesla8520]

Thanks for taking the time to write the post.

But learning about what it means to be a man instead of suppressing much of what is actually seen by women as attractive and to be praised when you do by society is a huge problem.

This part is interesting, and what you mean by it really needs to be explained better.

What do you mean by being a man?

In my culture, many women are simply silenced by men's arrogance, by their stubbornness, by their short temper, by their avoidance.

If they had the confidence and knowledge taught to them by their father instead of figuring it out themselves, IF THEY'RE LUCKY.

I can understand, I didn't actually have one.
The best thing we can do is find some real-life role models, learn from them, and emulate them at this point.

"What are you "willing to do" that other men aren't willing to do, besides being aware that failures are the things that make you grow?"



^This one here? Oh man. I LOVE answering this. This right here is why MOST men will not find the success or make bigger goals for themselves.



I'm willing to put fun aside. I'm willing to work MORE than 40hrs/wk. I'm willing to not do drugs of ANY KIND. The closest thing to drugs I touch is the occasional whiskey or beer. I used to smoke, but no more. I go to the gym. REGULARLY. I read. I try to read and write more than indulging in hobbies that don't really develop character.

I've always considered this normal.
I do it, and quite a few of my friends do it... it's just in my nature, man.

Plus, a lot of married husbands do it; they work and build their careers, and bring home the money.
Yet they have to deal with their wives' drama.

I don't think as a man I would ever accept a wife who brings drama into my home after I've destroyed myself outside. I just want her to treat me well.

AH! That's something that NO video game will ever match.

I understand! It's the same for me too! I stopped playing. I prefer to live.

Around roughly 3% of the male population on this planet EVER study a martial art.

I do MA too! I'm into MMA

 

[Divorced w 3]

What attracts women is essentially cat and mouse - push and pull - mystery with confidence. In this environment you are the cat with the cheese. You put your cheese out, she comes closer, you pull that cheese away, you go back and forth about this 2-3 times if you have to and then you take her to bed. If you think about this, any long term relationship cannot by design be mysterious after a point in time. You go from looking fun and exciting to evasive and secretive and controlling. You should look at the voices saying otherwise - perpetual seducers - a lifetime of having end points in relationships

 

[RoadKing_Rabbit]

Well, since it doesn't sound like the male experience is unnecessarily "complicated" where you reside, I'd say don't worry about my explanations further on that point as it likely won't even be applicable. heheh

In America (I've been told that Great Britain, New Zealand and Australia are just as bad or worse), the past few decades have been INTERESTING to say the least. Men in popular media, be it television, social media etc are depicted as incapable of doing the most simple of tasks without a woman to tell him how to do it. It used to infuriate me and I used to refute it openly every time I had the opportunity to do so. Well, unfortunately doing this unless you get to know who you're speaking to can alienate people from you very quickly.

There's a 'hidden' implication that only men can be chauvinistic or sexist. Everyone is familiar with the word "Misogyny" but no one seems to know that "misandry" is also a word. Women in general have a lot of made up nonsense words to describe "cringe" or problematic male behaviors. Some of these words are "Mansplain", "Manspread", "incel", "manlet", "peter pan syndrome", and let's not forget that every ex boyfriend is by default a narcissist. LOL Man, you'd think every other woman is a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist! Diagnoses got real cheap. LOL

Glad it's not that crazy over there. Unfortunately, most men in America see this kind of crap and it makes them not even want to bother with approaching or navigating in society. A lot have sworn off women with the attitude of "Well, I'm not even gonna try if this is how women are." Then they huff, puff, disappear into video games, bottles, and p0rn. Nice to hear that on your side of this spinning rock women tend to respond favorably to masculine traits.

Easy to miss things like this cross culture! Now I understand the why behind the questions you ask! Where one is from makes a big difference! Even in the states! For example, Oklahoma or South Dakota will be VERY different from say New York, California or Florida.