“The 22 Rules That Flip the Script With Women… And How You Can Use Them Tonight”

Most guys accidentally kill attraction before they even speak. They assume they need a bigger bank account, a better physique, or smoother lines. They miss the point.

Female desire operates on a specific set of psychological triggers.  Break them, and you're invisible. Follow them, and you become magnetic.

I learned this the hard way. Years of freezing up. Getting friend-zoned. Watching other guys walk away with the girl I wanted. Then I discovered a set of 22 simple rules that rewired my entire approach.

Read more...

This one thing equals Frame

Sega Genesis

Master Don Juan
Joined
Sep 9, 2024
Messages
815
Reaction score
569
I think emotionally stoic guys can do ok with women its not a bad frame to take and theres definitely a market for them type of men

The types of women that will want a guy like that are generally straight laced corporate types who work in male dominated enviroments or like playing power games , also female athletes will like guys like that.

If you want a girl who's a bit more down to earth and a bit more fun generally she isn't going to want someone that expresses as much emotion as a plank of wood.
^^100% agree, it's important to find a balance guys!

My brother is about as stoic as they come naturally, and I've had relationships with men who were also - 100% in control of their emotions at all times.

Whenever there was an emotional issue, they were in such "control" they would either walk out/disappear or not want to discuss at all. Stonewall. As such nothing got resolved and the relationship died a slow death.

Expressing emotion even anger is good, it's healthy! If a woman is playing games, shyt testing, or doing something that pisses you off, don't sit there like a robot "controlling your emotions" get angry!

That does NOT mean throwing fits, punching walls or flipping furniture, but expressing what is a normal healthy emotion is human, it's REAL.

I always knew when a man was faking his cool facade and suppressing what is a normal healthy emotion and it was such a turn OFF.

Ironically that is what made me feel unsafe. Emotionally and even physically if it involved others attempting to hurt me/us.

Much more so than had he just been real and expressed his anger, disappointment. In a healthy way. It can be done.

I trusted that because again it IS real. Versus him behaving too stoically which came off robot-like, disingenuous and was/is incredibly frustrating.

Suppressing emotions/anger in order to maintain frame which is what this sounds like is not what men should be taught IMO.

But rather, try to find the right balance between expressing emotions even anger and NOT losing your shyt (throwing fits/punching walls (or her).

$.02
 
Last edited:

What happens, IN HER MIND, is that she comes to see you as WORTHLESS simply because she hasn't had to INVEST anything in you in order to get you or to keep you.

You were an interesting diversion while she had nothing else to do. But now that someone a little more valuable has come along, someone who expects her to treat him very well, she'll have no problem at all dropping you or demoting you to lowly "friendship" status.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

TheGambino

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
2,751
Reaction score
970
Location
Somewhere
The problem with the holding frame philosophy is that it often comes across as boring to the women most men find attractive. Many younger, more attractive women prefer a guy who’s exciting and gives them a thrill. If you naturally hold frame well, you’ll need to work harder at finding the right women, because a lot of the ones being pursued are looking for emotionally unpredictable men. That’s not to say there aren’t attractive women for mentally stable men, but you might have to step away from online dating and bar scenes to find them.
this is 100% true but id rather be a stoic man Whos true to his self and lose those dime women
 

Cheeky_James

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Aug 16, 2025
Messages
395
Reaction score
177
Age
42
Was struggling with deciphering GGs post tbh.
The singular use of ‘frame’ in the post title and what a “rock solid frame” actually means..
I had to google ‘what does frame mean in pickup seduction’
AI summary below;

———————-
In pickup/seduction, "frame" refers to
your internal reality, perspective, and sense of self-worth, while "frame control" is the skill of maintaining that solid sense of self, setting the narrative, and influencing how others perceive you and the interaction, preventing them from dictating terms or invalidating your reality. It's about staying grounded in your own value and perspective, even when challenged, and subtly guiding the interaction's meaning to be positive and attractive, rather than being "framed" (manipulated) into a negative situation.
Key Aspects of Frame:
  • Internal State: Your core beliefs, confidence, and sense of reality.
  • Shared Meaning: Creating a mutual understanding or narrative for the interaction.
  • Influence: Guiding what others think, feel, and the meaning they assign to events.
How it Works in Seduction:
  1. Setting the Tone: You establish a positive, fun, or intriguing dynamic from the start, rather than letting the other person's nervousness or potential negativity dictate the mood.
  2. Handling Challenges (Negs/Tests): If someone says, "You're a player, aren't you?" (a frame test), you maintain your frame by playfully reframing it (e.g., "Only for the best" or ignoring the negative implication) rather than getting defensive, which would mean they successfully framed you.
  3. Leading the Interaction: You guide the conversation, create positive emotions, and maintain your high value, showing you're not easily swayed or needy.
Example:
  • Weak Frame: Getting flustered or defensive when someone challenges you.
  • Strong Frame: Using humor, confidence, and redirection to turn a negative comment into a positive or intriguing moment, demonstrating you're in control of your own emotional state.
Essentially, it's about being the "frame" (the solid structure) of the interaction, not being the thing inside the frame that gets easily moved around.

————————
So yeah , that was my understanding also.
Setting/holding frames refers to mainly *language* -how a guy talks ,what he says, how he says it.

The internal reality , perspective and self worth stuff is the impression in the minds of the other parties he’s communicating with.
It’s a impression/perception/projection of him.

Based on this , I think GGs post is total garbage tbh.
Because of
> misunderstanding of what Frame is
> massive simplification , and equation to emotional regulation as the ‘one thing’. Nope.
managing emotions’ is a part of Frame but a much lesser part.

What his post suggests is also backwards re trying to learn anything about Frame or improve holding it.

> Getting good at holding frame is a verbal thing.
Great verbals don’t come solely from managing emotional state. It helps. Verbals are a different skill set learned a different way.

what’s way more important is what you’re saying and how you’re saying it. And also how fast you can say it.

Frame is all about talking and attitude. It’s ‘power talking ‘.
Guys that have a rock solid frame have earned it IRL through winning countless verbal battles.
That way they get leadership, power, influence, respect etc etc.

that’s how it works IRL.
Like another user stated succinctly - a guy can have emotional regulation up the wazoo, but it means nothing if he get out-framed all day long by everyone around him.

rock solid frame = wit , banter, verbal jujitsu, teasing, debating skills, power talking etc etc
verbal dominance basically.
 
Last edited:

BeExcellent

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
5,353
Reaction score
7,790
Age
57
FWIW I am talking about emotional regulation NOT utter lack of emotion.

Huge difference.

If something WORTH being angry about happens then anger is appropriate.

BUT you must exert maturity and control over how you express that anger, and dismiss dumb stuff (like the driver who cut you off in traffic or the gf taking a wrong turn.)

Glassguy is right. Prisons are full of idiots who shot someone over an insult, for example. The lack of emotional control resulted in an adverse outcome right?? The solution is not to be devoid of emotion, but rather to have control of your actions regardless how you feel. If someone fires you or breaks up with you or ignores you.....you do NOT go set their house on fire....

The other problem is that many men lack the maturity and self awareness to feel emotions other than anger, and therefore transpose other emotions (sadness, disappointment, frustration as obvious examples) into anger. So other emotional states get misappropriated to and expressed as anger, which makes a man come across as volatile and unstable.

How this affects frame:

Let me remind y'all that I am deeply familiar with "game" and "frame". I have decades of "in set" experience in the dating environment, have been around nightlife venues 40 years, including owning a nightclub, and I count dozens of current and former players & playboys among my friends and acquaintances. I married a nightclub owner, and am now married to a former player.

Strong frame comes from internal, NOT external validation. Strong frame has nothing to do with verbal interaction as an act or schick so drop the references to pick up artists who sell some formula. Rather, verbal interactions that convey solid frame are a natural consequence of WHO YOU ARE. A natural consequence of what you will accept in an interaction with someone else, your belief system and your values. It goes to your core and is not contrived. It is not a dancing monkey act. It also derives from understanding what you, as an individual can, and cannot control.

No matter what happens in life you control how you respond.

Let's say you approach an attractive chick in a nightclub:

Example dude 1:

M: What's up? Lookin' good.....

W: (She makes a yuck face & turns away)

M: Hey. I'm talking to you.

W: F off.

So guy storms off in anger, pissed and but hurt.


Example dude 2:

M: What's up? Lookin' good.....

W: (She makes a yuck face & turns away)

M: Laughs (thinking to himself how silly women are)

So guy forgets about her & goes on to chat with someone else.
 

BeExcellent

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
5,353
Reaction score
7,790
Age
57
Dude 1 in my example is externally validated.

Dude 2 in my example is internally validated.

Notice the difference in reaction to rejection. Dude 1 is but hurt and probably pissy the rest of the night. Dude 2 simply forgets about the chick & goes on to enjoy the rest of his night.

Dude 1 is affected because he seeks external validation from a random stranger girl.

Dude 2 is internally validated and does not give a hoot about random stranger girl.

These emotive outcomes come directly out of the maturity and self awareness and self esteem of the man, which drive emotional regulation and directly affect what we call "frame".

Can you see that CheekyJames and others?
 
Last edited:

Barrister

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
2,811
Reaction score
4,962
Age
40
Expressing emotion even anger is good, it's healthy! If a woman is playing games, shyt testing, or doing something that pisses you off, don't sit there like a robot "controlling your emotions" get angry!
This isn't ever constructive with women. I have been in relationships with many women, both romantic and professional, and I have never found that getting angry at them (even when they deserve it) ever does much of anything besides making them either going into shell mode or backing off from their position temporarily only to resent you for it. Either way, it is a mistake that overall lessens their attraction to you unless they are severely messed up in the head and/or are a masochist.

Not controlling your emotions as a man is a losing proposition.
 
Last edited:

BillyPilgrim

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 9, 2021
Messages
5,883
Reaction score
4,695
If we define "frame" by how one perceives reality, I'd say it's belief more so than emotional control.
 

Sega Genesis

Master Don Juan
Joined
Sep 9, 2024
Messages
815
Reaction score
569
This isn't ever constructive with women. I have been in relationships with many women, both romantic and professional, and I have never found that getting angry at them (even when they deserve it) ever does much of anything besides making them either going into shell mode or backing off from their position temporarily only to resent you for it. Either way, it is a losing proposition that overall lessens their attraction to you unless they are severely messed up in the head and/or are a masochist.

Not controlling your emotions as a man is a losing proposition.
Fair enough if that's your experience, I won't debate you about it.

But you seem to have disregarded what else I said about there being a balance... and this:

That does NOT mean throwing fits, punching walls or flipping furniture, but expressing what is a normal healthy emotion is human, it's REAL.

Honestly I don't know how a couple can resolve an emotional issue or any issue if one or both is suppressing an emotion (such as anger) and behaving like a robot.

If a woman can't handle her man getting a little angry at her when warranted, then she's got issues and I would recommend finding a different woman.

Treating her like a fragile snowflake hiding your anger, disappointment etc won't resolve anything in fact it may make things worse! She may lose respect. I have.

Again it's about balance.

My real-world experience.
 
Last edited:

Cheeky_James

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Aug 16, 2025
Messages
395
Reaction score
177
Age
42
Strong frame comes from internal, NOT external validation. Strong frame has nothing to do with verbal interaction as an act or schick so drop the references to pick up artists who sell some formula. Rather, verbal interactions that convey solid frame are a natural consequence of WHO YOU ARE. A natural consequence of what you will accept in an interaction with someone else, your belief system and your values. It goes to your core and is not contrived. It is not a dancing monkey act. It also derives from understanding what you, as an individual can, and cannot control.
With regard to learning and getting success with picking up in bars and clubs -totally disagree with this idea above.

Pickup advice at some point (after The Game was a bestseller and PUA got really popular) switched towards ‘Inner Game ‘ ..internals.
Trying to teach pickup from the inside out.
That it starts with Belief systems , values etc and this idea of “ verbal interactions that convey solid frame being a natural consequence of WHO YOU ARE”

Except that’s a crock of sh1t.
It doesn’t work that way.

That idea is backwards.
With regards setting and holding frames - It actually works from the outside in.
Actions and Results first, improvement in understanding and confidence follows internally after in the mind. Theory and the “why it works” comes last. A guy does not need a full understanding WHY what he’s doing works to get his d1ck wet.
He’ll come to his own understanding of the WHY eventually after he’s repeated it and had X number of one night stands. (Like me : D)

Strong Frame is ALL about verbal interaction baby.
Because the term Frame and ideas attached all come from the field of *LINGUISTICS* .. you bunch of Lah-Lahs ! Hello?

And initially it WILL be an experiment or an act or a fake it till ya make it deal. Cos that’s how learning actually happens IRL. Experiments. Testing, Mistakes , fvck ups. stumbles ..until a guy gets intuition IRL and legs start spreading at the end of the night.

So yeah.. a rant but completely disagree with this idea that’s infiltrated pickup and all over the forums etc. it just keeps guys spinning their wheels, buying products and consuming more pickup Theory… and getting nowhere.
 
Last edited:

Sega Genesis

Master Don Juan
Joined
Sep 9, 2024
Messages
815
Reaction score
569
FWIW I am talking about emotional regulation NOT utter lack of emotion.

Huge difference.

If something WORTH being angry about happens then anger is appropriate.

BUT you must exert maturity and control over how you express that anger, and dismiss dumb stuff (like the driver who cut you off in traffic or the gf taking a wrong turn.)

Glassguy is right. Prisons are full of idiots who shot someone over an insult, for example. The lack of emotional control resulted in an adverse outcome right?? The solution is not to be devoid of emotion, but rather to have control of your actions regardless how you feel. If someone fires you or breaks up with you or ignores you.....you do NOT go set their house on fire....

The other problem is that many men lack the maturity and self awareness to feel emotions other than anger, and therefore transpose other emotions (sadness, disappointment, frustration as obvious examples) into anger. So other emotional states get misappropriated to and expressed as anger, which makes a man come across as volatile and unstable.

How this affects frame:

Let me remind y'all that I am deeply familiar with "game" and "frame". I have decades of "in set" experience in the dating environment, have been around nightlife venues 40 years, including owning a nightclub, and I count dozens of current and former players & playboys among my friends and acquaintances. I married a nightclub owner, and am now married to a former player.

Strong frame comes from internal, NOT external validation. Strong frame has nothing to do with verbal interaction as an act or schick so drop the references to pick up artists who sell some formula. Rather, verbal interactions that convey solid frame are a natural consequence of WHO YOU ARE. A natural consequence of what you will accept in an interaction with someone else, your belief system and your values. It goes to your core and is not contrived. It is not a dancing monkey act. It also derives from understanding what you, as an individual can, and cannot control.

No matter what happens in life you control how you respond.

Let's say you approach an attractive chick in a nightclub:

Example dude 1:

M: What's up? Lookin' good.....

W: (She makes a yuck face & turns away)

M: Hey. I'm talking to you.

W: F off.

So guy storms off in anger, pissed and but hurt.


Example dude 2:

M: What's up? Lookin' good.....

W: (She makes a yuck face & turns away)

M: Laughs (thinking to himself how silly women are)

So guy forgets about her & goes on to chat with someone else.
I do agree with this^^. My opinion was more about when in a relationship and an emotional issue arises that pisses you off, disappoints you whatever.

If you're mad, then get mad. Let her see that part of your essence. Again that does NOT mean losing your shyt. Come on. I know you guys know the difference.
 
Last edited:

What happens, IN HER MIND, is that she comes to see you as WORTHLESS simply because she hasn't had to INVEST anything in you in order to get you or to keep you.

You were an interesting diversion while she had nothing else to do. But now that someone a little more valuable has come along, someone who expects her to treat him very well, she'll have no problem at all dropping you or demoting you to lowly "friendship" status.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

Cheeky_James

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Aug 16, 2025
Messages
395
Reaction score
177
Age
42
Dude 1 in my example is externally validated.

Dude 2 in my example is internally validated.

Notice the difference in reaction to rejection. Dude 1 is but hurt and probably pissy the rest of the night. Dude 2 simply forgets about the chick & goes on to enjoy the rest of his night.

Dude 1 is affected because he seeks external validation from a random stranger girl.

Dude 2 is internally validated and does not give a hoot about random stranger girl.

These emotive outcomes come directly out of the maturity and self awareness and self esteem of the man, which drive emotional regulation and directly affect what we call "frame".

Can you see that CheekyJames and others?
what I wanna know is which dude is getting laid at the end of the night , what he’s doing and is it learnable and repeatable.

Dude 2 is obviously in a better frame. Because of his reaction and ‘words’ he used. He laughs. “Hahaha” is a word (lol) he smirks he says ‘ chicks are funny man’ or whatever.

your assessment of his ‘emotive outcomes come directly out of the maturity and self awareness and self esteem of the man’ is theorising. It’s your projection and Interpretation of his qualities based on his reaction and what he says. (Words)

Guy 2 may actually be none of these things inside himself. He may be immature and low self esteem infact and masking it in a bar dealing with women.
He may have just fooled you?

I know this , because I’ve done it repeatedly in bars and clubs in my heyday and had plenty of legs spreading at the end of the night :D
 

Barrister

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 28, 2018
Messages
2,811
Reaction score
4,962
Age
40
Fair enough if that's your experience, I won't debate you about it.

But you seem to have disregarded what else I said about there being a balance... and this:

That does NOT mean throwing fits, punching walls or flipping furniture, but expressing what is a normal healthy emotion is human, it's REAL.

Honestly I don't know how a couple can resolve an emotional issue or any issue if one or both is suppressing an emotion (such as anger) and behaving like a robot.

If a woman can't handle her man getting a little angry at her when warranted, then she's got issues and I would recommend finding a different woman.

Treating her like a fragile snowflake hiding your anger, disappointment etc won't resolve anything in fact it may make things worse! She may lose respect. I have.

Again it's about balance.

My real-world experience.
I understand you weren't saying to act like a psychopath. I am saying being "angry" at all isn't remotely constructive on any level. While I will agree that communicating your displeasure and setting a healthy boundary for bad behavior is an absolute must, the "getting angry" part is completely pointless. Even if you aren't throwing furniture around the house, showing anger towards a female never accomplishes anything and makes the man appear weak. I have certainly been guilty of this despite knowing better - to an extent it can be very difficult to curb strong emotions depending on what happened. But at the end of the day, it legitimately serves no purpose other than to possibly cause even more negative reactions.

Yes, communication over what happened is absolutely necessary. To circle back to the topic at hand: you can "maintain frame" without getting angry, and in fact, can do it much easier when you aren't angry.
 

Sega Genesis

Master Don Juan
Joined
Sep 9, 2024
Messages
815
Reaction score
569
I understand you weren't saying to act like a psychopath. I am saying being "angry" at all isn't remotely constructive on any level. While I will agree that communicating your displeasure and setting a healthy boundary for bad behavior is an absolute must, the "getting angry" part is completely pointless. Even if you aren't throwing furniture around the house, showing anger towards a female never accomplishes anything and makes the man appear weak. I have certainly been guilty of this despite knowing better - to an extent it can be very difficult to curb strong emotions depending on what happened. But at the end of the day, it legitimately serves no purpose other than to possibly cause even more negative reactions.

Yes, communication over what happened is absolutely necessary. To circle back to the topic at hand: you can "maintain frame" without getting angry, and in fact, can do it much easier when you aren't angry.
OK. Perhaps it's more about "managing" your emotions versus "controlling" your emotions?

When I think of a man controlling his emotions I think of a man who is emotionally unavailable who either doesn't feel his emotions and/or unable to express them... in a healthy way.

On the other hand...

Managing his emotions means he feels his emotions (such as anger) and knows how to manage them so he doesn't come off as a raving lunatic. He doesn't lose his shyt and as such is able to express, discuss and resolve issues in a healthy constructive way.

I think we may actually be saying the same thing just different wording.
 
Last edited:

Cheeky_James

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Aug 16, 2025
Messages
395
Reaction score
177
Age
42
Example dude 2:

M: What's up? Lookin' good.....

W: (She makes a yuck face & turns away)

M: Laughs (thinking to himself how silly women are)

So guy forgets about her & goes on to chat with someone else.
This is good , we are getting into specifics of frame and frame control.
This guy 2 has an ok reaction. But he’s not really exercising framing or frame control.
Having rock solid frame control would be seeing her reaction as an opportunity to reframe /flip that reaction to suit him, to try win the frame battle and get her to play in his sandbox .
a frame control example might be ;( off the top of my head)


M: What's up? Lookin' good.....

W: (She makes a yuck face & turns away)

M: woahhh ! What’s that face ? Did u just sh1t your pants ?! :-O Are you ok? Do u need to go the bathroom and change or something?

(this is a vulgar reframe, but a reframe nonetheless it’s often about speed of retort anyway)

or
M: What's up? Lookin' good.....

W: (She makes a yuck face & turns away)

M: woahhh brosephine! You need to dial it DOWN Nacho! Sizzle your celery babe!

or
M: What's up? Lookin' good.....

W: (She makes a yuck face & turns away)

M: woahhh brosephine! You need to get on a rubber canoe , slide down the jellyfish river, sail until you get to the treeline, and then stand up, turn around..and smash your face into a raspberry ..honeysuckle...film flam. :-|

(absurdity frame, but the objective is to get her attention and invest time into the interaction, there is lots of commands in there also which is great

I’m sure there’s more ‘perfect’ ones than that . Just straight off the top here.

the ‘rule’ of frame control is-
If a woman laughs ,or anything of the sort, to the verbal reframe , that’s an agreement ,they are now in your frame. (For the time being) The interaction ought to continue from there with back and forth banter.
 
Last edited:

BeExcellent

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
5,353
Reaction score
7,790
Age
57
what I wanna know is which dude is getting laid at the end of the night , what he’s doing and is it learnable and repeatable.

Dude 2 is obviously in a better frame. Because of his reaction and ‘words’ he used. He laughs. “Hahaha” is a word (lol) he smirks he says ‘ chicks are funny man’ or whatever.

your assessment of his ‘emotive outcomes come directly out of the maturity and self awareness and self esteem of the man’ is theorising. It’s your projection and Interpretation of his qualities based on his reaction and what he says. (Words)

Guy 2 may actually be none of these things inside himself. He may be immature and low self esteem infact and masking it in a bar dealing with women.
He may have just fooled you?

I know this , because I’ve done it repeatedly in bars and clubs in my heyday and had plenty of legs spreading at the end of the night :D
Lol. No I'm not theorizing at all. I am going by direct personal or observational experience. I had in my late 20s/early 30s (as just one example) a tall lanky good looking male friend I used to wing for weekend in & weekend out. I got that guy laid dozens of times by being, as he used to call it, his "show pony"... we danced very very well together. First few songs the band would play he and I would dance. I was a very hot girl & made him look very good (women are inherently competitive)... so every other girl then wanted to dance with him after I effectively social proofed him. Now he also had great wit and banter, but it came out of his self confidence and no fvcks given attitude, which was NOT fake also helped.
 

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

Cheeky_James

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Aug 16, 2025
Messages
395
Reaction score
177
Age
42
Lol. No I'm not theorizing at all. I am going by direct personal or observational experience. I had in my late 20s/early 30s (as just one example) a tall lanky good looking male friend I used to wing for weekend in & weekend out. I got that guy laid dozens of times by being, as he used to call it, his "show pony"... we danced very very well together. First few songs the band would play he and I would dance. I was a very hot girl & made him look very good (women are inherently competitive)... so every other girl then wanted to dance with him after I effectively social proofed him. Now he also had great wit and banter, but it came out of his self confidence and no fvcks given attitude, which was NOT fake also helped.
Im pointing out that your (or anyones) measurement of attributes like amount self confidence, no fvcks given attitude, maturity , self esteem , higher status etc etc comes from what the guy says in response to situations yeah?
how a guy talks reveals his personality, for the main part. His language word choices and his tone ,shows his perspective and displays his attributes yeah? Plus the body language too for sure. It’s a package.

Pickup advice nowadays all leans towards inner game stuff mainly. It’s super theory heavy, meta level, vague , confusing and very hard to ‘learn’ in insolation by just reading theory or apply things in other areas that don’t involve interactions with women.

And all of these things it talks about or tries to teach are a ‘display’ in social interactions, encounters , situations.

this inner game first approach to learning is crap.

It doesn’t really work.the concepts are too meta.

But it sells a lot more. and keeps guys coming back.
Because the sellers tell the buyer that’s the way it’s to be learned. It works if you work it. Blah blah.

the much more effective way to learn - is to fix how he dresses, fix how he stands and moves and most importantly fix how he talks in interactions, bit by bit, through repeated interactions. Over and over. Making mistakes and course correcting. In real life encounters. That will give him all the good perceptions he needs to pickup in bars and clubs.

That’s it. He doesn’t need to fix all his internals belief systems values become a leader in every area of life blah blah blah to get the confidence to get his **** wet on the regular , approaching in bars and clubs,
That’s horsh1t.

there is no real proof that this “inner game first” approach to getting better with women works.

At all.
afaics.
 
Last edited:

BeExcellent

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
5,353
Reaction score
7,790
Age
57
Well many/most of the old sages on this forum will agree with what I am saying, and would strongly agree with Glassguy's post.

Go forth and use the search option for internal validation. Both Colossus and Atom Smasher were big advocates of this approach.

Fixing the externals is only going to get a guy so far. The internals must improve. Simple but not easy.
 

BackInTheGame78

Moderator
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
16,404
Reaction score
18,433
The problem with the holding frame philosophy is that it often comes across as boring to the women most men find attractive. Many younger, more attractive women prefer a guy who’s exciting and gives them a thrill. If you naturally hold frame well, you’ll need to work harder at finding the right women, because a lot of the ones being pursued are looking for emotionally unpredictable men. That’s not to say there aren’t attractive women for mentally stable men, but you might have to step away from online dating and bar scenes to find them.
Why would any man want a toxic woman?

Those women naturally disqualify themselves to those men, and rightfully so.

Approaching it from the wrong mindset. It's as important to keep the wrong ones away as it is to attract the ones you want.
 

Cheeky_James

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Aug 16, 2025
Messages
395
Reaction score
177
Age
42
Well many/most of the old sages on this forum will agree with what I am saying, and would strongly agree with Glassguy's post.
that’s speculation.
I sincerely hope not , as that would confirm they don’t understand what Frame means either.
Which means it’s the blind leading the blind.
 
Last edited:

Vanderdonck

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jul 12, 2024
Messages
851
Reaction score
864
Age
50
From my perspective, I will make this easy. There is one thing that you can have, develop or figure out how to do in order to have a rock solid frame when it comes to dealing with women (as well as any relationship type).

Ability to maintain control over your emotions.

Thats it.
Not everything is going to go your way. Things happen in life and certainly when dating, getting to know someone, when there isnt enough of an investment on either end to "owe" things to one another. There are flakes. Disagreements. Shyte tests. You can go on and on and fill in the blanks.
Although you cant control a lot of what life throws at you, the ability to control your emotions is 100% within your control.
Look at how the majority of men act: they get butthurt. Throw tantrums. Block women when anything goes wrong.
This forum is full of people who have a very hard time not being able to control their emotions when something doesnt go in their favor. How do you think women look at this? How would you do with a woman who had little to no self control over her emotions (and I've very briefly dated women like this). Nobody wants to be with someone who acts like a tantrum throwing child.
We all get discouraged, upset, let down, etc. Its human nature. But the ones that are most successful are the ones that dont get upset. We control what we can control in a good way.
We have prison systems across this country full of people that made a terrible decision because they couldn't control their emotions. Posters who cant control their emotions and wonder why they struggle with women.
Women want men that can control their emotions, are leaders in the relationship and they can feel safe knowing that the man they are with has a mature way of handling his emotions when things dont go their way.
Charisma, charm, fun personality, intellect, wit, etc all are great attributes that attract women.
But if you cant control your emotions, women with any sense of high value are going to run as fast and as far away from you as they can.
If you want a New Year's resolution that will improve your mental state, work on this and you will see how much easier it is to attract women into your life.
Want to know why women throw shyte tests at you guys? They haven't seen stability yet that you can control your emotions. And they want to see if youre like so many other men that have tried to date them that act like grown toddlers when they dont get their way. They'd rather shyte test you early to find out so they dont waste their time dealing with a man child.

Food for thought.
Happy Hunting
This is a very good post and it's a reminder to pause and take a deep breath whenever bad fortune arises. Live in the moment and remind yourself that you can solve any problem. You are after all a man.

This helps to regulate emotion. Emotions are natural and your body's way of telling you something's wrong, but the nervous system can overreact and the mind, if not fine tuned, can be lazy and indulge in the emotional state. So you have to accept and dismiss the feeling, and center yourself. Note that this is beneficial for your own well being and mindset. The fact that women like it shouldn't even matter to you.

This does make up a LOT of frame which again - is for you not her. The rest is mostly holding true to your principles in the long term and accepting yourself 100%. A woman can take it or leave it.
 

“The 22 Rules That Turned Me From Invisible to Irresistible With Women… Starting Tonight”

You can skip the expensive cars, the fancy clothes, and the endless gym selfies. Completely unnecessary.

I used to freeze the second a beautiful woman looked my way. Frustrated. Awkward. Watching other guys walk away with the girl while I stood there tongue-tied.

Then I discovered 22 simple rules that rewired my entire dating life. The anxiety vanished. Conversations flowed effortlessly. Women started chasing me for a change.

These rules trigger a woman's subconscious attraction switches. And you can start using them tonight.

Read more...

Top