Do you even bother arguing with women about things like feminism, gender roles, pay gap, etc?

[FlexpertHamilton]

Or is it a waste of time? It seems in many cases even if the women is high IL or much lower SMV, if you argue about such topics too far, you'll get called sexist/narcissist etc and they get hysterical and it's over. Once a women in an intimate setting starts spewing feminist horseshvt I cannot help myself, and choosing to ignore it and change the subject is something that eats away at my soul. That said, I have met women who were lefties/feminists, but they did not get combatitive, hysterical, etc and we were still able to have a civil discussion and in those cases I tended to steer away from the subject after a certain point instead of letting it escalate. But I wonder if it's just completely pointless, and if so, how you can learn to not give a shvt what they say or think.

The idea of women "bending" to your frame seems limited in this sense and if it's possible to get women to accept reason and logic and critical thinking, I suspect it's something that takes a long, long time. But I also suspect that women don't actually have their own thoughts, and the majority of these "tradcon submissive wifes" for instance don't believe what they do due to critical thinking, but because they were told to think that way (ie their father, community, or a high value husband that commands respect).

 

[BillyPilgrim]

No, but I bait them to see if they have extremist views. Make common sense, generally accepted statements and see if they disagree, how they respond etc.

Bail if they're toxic

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

No, but I bait them to see if they have extremist views. Make common sense, generally accepted statements and see if they disagree, how they respond etc.

Bail if they're toxic

Yup. Like I said I've dated women who were lefties/feminists but we didn't fight about it and could find common ground, and they didn't get hysterical or start shaming or start making ridiculous, illogical arguments. So in that sense I do think it's probably a good way to vet women for their emotional stability etc.

One thing I've started doing is complaining about fat women on a first date. If they get offended etc then I know I don't want anything to do with them.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Yup. Like I said I've dated women who were lefties/feminists but we didn't fight about it and could find common ground, and they didn't get hysterical or start shaming or start making ridiculous, illogical arguments. So in that sense I do think it's probably a good way to vet women for their emotional stability etc.

One thing I've started doing is complaining about fat women on a first date. If they get offended etc then I know I don't want anything to do with them.

I would broach it as "women don't look like their photos when we meet up"

 

[BaronOfHair]

Or is it a waste of time?

On the contrary... Arguing with women about such topics is more gainful than being a birthday clown who works perinatal hospice care exclusively. A fella wins arguments like these with chicks, just as often as said bday clown elicits uproarious laughter out of parents who are cradling their freshly deceased newborn, as he(The Bday clown) lights his own farts with a Zippo while standing just a few feet away from the not-so-happy-family

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

I would broach it as "women don't look like their photos when we meet up"

oh i do that too, describing catfishing and pretty much 100% agree with me. but sometimes ill say shvt as specific as "men don't like fat women."

 

[Westminster]

In my experience, the women who moan most about inequality, the gender pay, gap, patriarchy etc. are often privileged types who have actually profited from being female - the sort who get recruited and promoted at work on the basis of gender rather than ability; receive all sorts of social favours and sponsorship because they're female; and get a free pass for all sorts of questionable behaviour.

Yet still there's this victim mentality. It's really tiresome.

 

[Vanderdonck]

All arguments are a waste of time. The majority of people (men and women) cannot have a measured discussion about controversial topics. Most people want their views confirmed or to be triggered into hostility. If you can find someone who can hold two competing thoughts, you've found a unicorn.

 

[Doctor Doom]

Never argue with a chick. That’s falling into their frame.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

In general, arguing is a waste of time.

You can "be right" all the time in your own mind or get laid, usually not both.

 

[SW15]

women who were lefties/feminists

Most women will have a sociopolitical ideology that is further to the left than most men. In any given interaction, most men will be dealing with a woman with an ideology than is more liberal or left leaning than his own.

Some of this depends on the type of women that an individual man tends to interact with in his dealings with women. Non-White women have a different kind of leftism than White women. Women born in the 1980s-1990s tend to also take for granted some leftist/feminist beliefs that early Second Wave feminists of the 1960s didn't take for granted.

Non-married women as a whole are more left leaning than married women. This does suggest than it is possible for a woman's ideology to shift as her life circumstances shift. I would think this would happen with women who are more moderate/centrist as their starting point rather than women who are more fervent in their left leaning ideologies.

A good portion of us on this forum are dealing with never married and childless women and that group tends to be more left leaning as a whole. This group also tends to be younger as well. Some previously married women might be more right leaning as a consequence of their marriage. This would likely be more common with widowed women than divorced women, and also more common with women 50+. In other words, these aren't groups that many men on this forum tend to interact with regularly.

My own views on this might be skewed. I'm a White male with a bachelor's degree or higher and I tend to interact with White women with a bachelor's degree or higher. In the past 15 years, I've generally dealt with women between 25-40 at the time of the interaction. When a man deals with never married, childless, White women who are 25-40, living a big city, and with a bachelor's degree or higher, he is tending to deal with either centrist women or left leaning women.

It will be less common for most men (especially men living in bigger cities) to be dealing with women who are truly conservative/right leaning in their ideologies. The women with conservative ideologies tend to get into longer term relationships earlier. They are also more commonly found at more strict religious universities and some other more traditional and/or conservative interest groups. They would also tend to live in less populated areas. Rural areas and metropolitan areas under 500,000 in population are where these women are more likely to be found.

It seems in many cases even if the women is high IL or much lower SMV, if you argue about such topics too far, you'll get called sexist/narcissist etc and they get hysterical and it's over.....But I wonder if it's just completely pointless, and if so, how you can learn to not give a shvt what they say or think.

It is going to be generally pointless to have deep discussions about socially sensitive and politically sensitive topics in the earlier stages of an interaction. As interactions go on and develop into longer term relationships, it's likely inevitable that these topics will be discussed. When that time arrives, it's good to handle those discussions with rationality and sensitivity. Don't argue passionately about them and don't let the woman provoke you into a longer, passion filled discussion on them. That's usually going to hurt your relationship with her and limit your access to her vagina. It's relatively simple to avoid talking about the most sensitive topics for the first 3-6 months. Moderate/centrist/slightly left leaning women aren't going to want to talk too much about these. The most hardcore left leaning women are the ones who would be most likely to push conversations around these topics.

The most relevant topic that is likely to come up first is birth prevention/pregnancy when you're first having sex. Men who use condoms (as Iron Rule of Tomassi #5 promotes) are less likely to have deep discussions around this and that will work well with pregnancy prevention. Moderate/left leaning women with bachelor's degrees or higher tend to use some form of birth control as well. There are some left leaning women that aren't on birth control due to health impacts of using birth control. The recent changes in USA abortion laws haven't changed these interactions too much though some women get a bit nervous if they are lacking easy access to abortion.

I think it's a good idea to discuss birth control practices prior to having sex. That isn't realistic in some situations. Same night sex from a nightlife venue approach is not likely to result in a discussion of birth control practices. Additionally, first date sex (either from an app arranged first date or a real life arranged first date) isn't likely to result in a birth control discussion either.

Another area where sensitive topics are likely to be discussed earlier is about the workplace. Many women with bachelor's degrees or higher work white collar jobs and are passionate about their white collar work. These are career women and often the Girl Boss stereotype. A good way to avoid dealing with social issues around working is to date women who don't define themselves by their occupation. These are women who work to live and would rather talk about their life's interests and hobbies. I think many of us on this forum will know how to avoid careerist women who enjoy talking about careers, smashing the patriarchy, Sheryl Sandberg's "Lean In", or breaking the glass ceiling.

 

[Hamurabimbi]

Even though I’m in The SF Bay Area, Which one would expect to be a hotspot for this. I’ve never had any conversations with women about Feminism, gender….

 

[LTG71]

Most women will have a sociopolitical ideology that is further to the left than most men. In any given interaction, most men will be dealing with a woman with an ideology than is more liberal or left leaning than his own.

Some of this depends on the type of women that an individual man tends to interact with in his dealings with women. Non-White women have a different kind of leftism than White women. Women born in the 1980s-1990s tend to also take for granted some leftist/feminist beliefs that early Second Wave feminists of the 1960s didn't take for granted.

Non-married women as a whole are more left leaning than married women. This does suggest than it is possible for a woman's ideology to shift as her life circumstances shift. I would think this would happen with women who are more moderate/centrist as their starting point rather than women who are more fervent in their left leaning ideologies.

A good portion of us on this forum are dealing with never married and childless women and that group tends to be more left leaning as a whole. This group also tends to be younger as well. Some previously married women might be more right leaning as a consequence of their marriage. This would likely be more common with widowed women than divorced women, and also more common with women 50+. In other words, these aren't groups that many men on this forum tend to interact with regularly.

My own views on this might be skewed. I'm a White male with a bachelor's degree or higher and I tend to interact with White women with a bachelor's degree or higher. In the past 15 years, I've generally dealt with women between 25-40 at the time of the interaction. When a man deals with never married, childless, White women who are 25-40, living a big city, and with a bachelor's degree or higher, he is tending to deal with either centrist women or left leaning women.

It will be less common for most men (especially men living in bigger cities) to be dealing with women who are truly conservative/right leaning in their ideologies. The women with conservative ideologies tend to get into longer term relationships earlier. They are also more commonly found at more strict religious universities and some other more traditional and/or conservative interest groups. They would also tend to live in less populated areas. Rural areas and metropolitan areas under 500,000 in population are where these women are more likely to be found.



It is going to be generally pointless to have deep discussions about socially sensitive and politically sensitive topics in the earlier stages of an interaction. As interactions go on and develop into longer term relationships, it's likely inevitable that these topics will be discussed. When that time arrives, it's good to handle those discussions with rationality and sensitivity. Don't argue passionately about them and don't let the woman provoke you into a longer, passion filled discussion on them. That's usually going to hurt your relationship with her and limit your access to her vagina. It's relatively simple to avoid talking about the most sensitive topics for the first 3-6 months. Moderate/centrist/slightly left leaning women aren't going to want to talk too much about these. The most hardcore left leaning women are the ones who would be most likely to push conversations around these topics.

The most relevant topic that is likely to come up first is birth prevention/pregnancy when you're first having sex. Men who use condoms (as Iron Rule of Tomassi #5 promotes) are less likely to have deep discussions around this and that will work well with pregnancy prevention. Moderate/left leaning women with bachelor's degrees or higher tend to use some form of birth control as well. There are some left leaning women that aren't on birth control due to health impacts of using birth control. The recent changes in USA abortion laws haven't changed these interactions too much though some women get a bit nervous if they are lacking easy access to abortion.

I think it's a good idea to discuss birth control practices prior to having sex. That isn't realistic in some situations. Same night sex from a nightlife venue approach is not likely to result in a discussion of birth control practices. Additionally, first date sex (either from an app arranged first date or a real life arranged first date) isn't likely to result in a birth control discussion either.

Another area where sensitive topics are likely to be discussed earlier is about the workplace. Many women with bachelor's degrees or higher work white collar jobs and are passionate about their white collar work. These are career women and often the Girl Boss stereotype. A good way to avoid dealing with social issues around working is to date women who don't define themselves by their occupation. These are women who work to live and would rather talk about their life's interests and hobbies. I think many of us on this forum will know how to avoid careerist women who enjoy talking about careers, smashing the patriarchy, Sheryl Sandberg's "Lean In", or breaking the glass ceiling.

Great explanation. The ones who are more conservative usually end up married and become mothers. Their focus is mostly on their families and a community for the success of their children. These women usually have a supportive husband that provides them everything these leftist women are working for. No need to complain about the patriarchy because they benefit from it.

I work with a self proclaimed bleeding heart Liberal feminist. Never met someone so selfish and narcissist in my life. Most of her actions are “virtue signals”. Hates the idea of marriage or being a mother. Mostly because her leftist family fvcked her up. She has admitted that she has a victim mindset. It was burned in her psyche by her Liberal family. Ironic thing, with all her freedoms she struggles to find purpose in life. Even complained that when she gets old, nobody will be there to take care of her. Nope, you hate marriage and family so those are the cards you dealt yourself.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

In general, arguing is a waste of time.

You can "be right" all the time in your own mind or get laid, usually not both.

If there's a 1% chance my words will get through to their head (or vice versa, usually on micro points) then sometimes i'd rather take the L. I don't think i'm right about everything, but I don't get emotional or shame, misrepresent what they say, make logical errors, etc.

But at this point, I'm tired of it... There is no getting through to ideologues, or people who can only accept a status quo narrative.

btw i never argued with anyone in person, including women, about Covid...

Even though I’m in The SF Bay Area, Which one would expect to be a hotspot for this. I’ve never had any conversations with women about Feminism, gender….

I've met women in LA and avoided these convos, and I tend to frequent establishments full of hippies/lefties (the psychedelic crowd, who I associate with at times, despite having wildly contrasting views) and I never argue with them either.

I currently live in a University hodgepodge city that somehow seems more lefty than CA, but maybe it's just getting worse in every year (my LA experiences were years ago) and it's finally caught up to me.

In almost all cases I just avoid the subject, but if they start bvtching about pay gap or some shvt I cannot help myself. In some ways, maybe it's a bait/shvt test, or at the very least a frame issue I need to work on. I do agree with the posters here, this is a complete waste of time. You can't even argue with most men anymore, let alone women. No one reads, no one has been taught critical thinking, scientific method, skepticism, etc. Almost everyone nowadays is ideologically captured and doesn't know how to think or apply reason.

That's a nice way of making her puzzy dry.

Generally I only do it with women I've already banged and don't intend on dating, or, with women who I'm not particularly interested in, so I don't care about that part.

What's the point of bringing those topics up? What would you gain by talking about topics that may create conflict when she has absolutely no emotional investment in you.

I don't bring it up or go out of my way to. But if they make some offhand comment, I bite. I genuinely don't even think it's always a bait or shvt test, they're just so used to men agreeing with them on whatever they say. Ultimately though, it is my failure because I do agree that it's a frame issue.

I'm just so tired of men agreeing with whatever women say for their entire lives. The only reason women think the way they do is because men say whatever they need to say to get pvssy and cannot say "no". This really sickens me.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

if there's a 1% chance my words will get through to their head (or vice versa, usually on micro points) then sometimes i'd rather take the L. i don't think i'm right about everything, but i don't get emotional or shame, misrepresent what they say, make logical errors, etc

but at this point, I'm tired of it. there is no getting through to ideologues.

btw i never argued with anyone in person, including women, about covid

This is a pretty worthwhile video to watch for most men who enjoy arguing with people in general.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

All arguments are a waste of time. The majority of people (men and women) cannot have a measured discussion about controversial topics. Most people want their views confirmed or to be triggered into hostility. If you can find someone who can hold two competing thoughts, you've found a unicorn.

I love your implication that the best you can hope for is for someone to have cognitive dissonance.

This is a pretty worthwhile video to watch for most men who enjoy arguing with people in general.

I'll check it out, thanks.

Related comment I saw in another video that I loved:

"They don't understand the substance of any sentences you utter.

They don't understand many basic words and they intrepret words in a random out of context cultural/slang version.

That happens 12 times in one sentence so that in their mind you said the opposite of what you actually said.

They CANT take words literally and they CANT give words the appropriate meaning for the context of the sentence.

It's impossible to get them to understand... They DO already agree with all your points and principles they just don't know they do, they're too busy taking every 2nd word out of context and then making random comments about them out of context.

They aren't talking to you... To them, they're talking to a stereotype robot of "old fuddy-duddy" who they either misinterpret or feel smug about insulting.

Why do they so openly mock giggle, infer serious insults and even directly insult and feel so ok? To a perfect stranger? Cos to them, you're not explaining your point .. To them, you're just an 'out of touch' man being mean."

It will be less common for most men (especially men living in bigger cities) to be dealing with women who are truly conservative/right leaning in their ideologies. The women with conservative ideologies tend to get into longer term relationships earlier. They are also more commonly found at more strict religious universities and some other more traditional and/or conservative interest groups. They would also tend to live in less populated areas. Rural areas and metropolitan areas under 500,000 in population are where these women are more likely to be found.

I don't think you were implying this, but, to clarify, I don't like conservatives either. I just hate ideology across the board, political or otherwise. I like people who are apolitical or centrist, and capable of critical thinking (ie, open mindedness + healthy skepticism). Such women are extremely rare. I think most of the apolitical / non idealogues are men, but I could be wrong. I would even reckon most "centrists" are men. It seems to me like women tend to always be on the extreme sides, and the only ones on the right are country types, which I do not like either. Ugh.

I think it's a good idea to discuss birth control practices prior to having sex. That isn't realistic in some situations. Same night sex from a nightlife venue approach is not likely to result in a discussion of birth control practices. Additionally, first date sex (either from an app arranged first date or a real life arranged first date) isn't likely to result in a birth control discussion either.

Prior? Sure, if you can do it without killing sexual tension. I tend to after we fvck for the first time. Luckily, I am pro-abortion (not pro choice, which is different) so I can at least get on the same page with them for that. And I don't mind BC, though I do have qualms with it for the same reason as abortion (removes accountability), though I still think it's a net positive. Once I establish that I address the problem of mens sexual/parental rights, and in my experience most if not all women do actually agree and acknowledge men's complete lack of saying power in that arena. One line I love to say "If a women wants a kid, and the man doesn't, too bad, he has to pay child support. If a man wants a kid, and the women doesn't, too bad, she's getting an abortion." Let alone the general fact that courts overwhelmingly favor women for child custody...though I rarely if ever go that far with it.

A good way to avoid dealing with social issues around working is to date women who don't define themselves by their occupation.

Yup. In fact, "educated" (especially post-grad) "career women" are literally my biggest red flag now. If a women is a workaholic and/or defines herself by her job (unless it's operating her own business, which I actually love and respect a lot) I don't want anything to do with her. I literally put that on my Hinge profile among other qualifiers, and women either love it and qualify themselves, or hate it, but in my current city it's mostly the latter group.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

This is a pretty worthwhile video to watch for most men who enjoy arguing with people in general.

So I watched the video. I think we need to make the distinction between arguing and discussing/discourse.

I think the points about using arguments as a way to validate your ego is accurate. Ultimately, being willing to walk away and not let things escalate into arguments is true, because you don't play into their game. This is something I've practiced for a while, walking away from toxic behaviors. If someone resorts to shaming, insults, straw man, etc I immediately walk away for that reason, because at that point I know the discussion is over and pointless to continue.

What I don't like is the implication that all disagreements lead will lead an argument or that people automatically get emotionally compromised, but sadly in today's age, I think I need to accept that it's just a fact.

I have debates/discussions with my close friends on occasion, and even if we strongly disagree we can "argue" without emotions involved and reach a place of understanding and mutual respect. I had one with two close friends a while back about setting boundaries with women, and despite having an immense disagreement, we were able to keep it civil. When you have a real discussion with someone, in the moment you might not change your mind but you may weeks later, I've done it and I've seen my friends do it too. That is literally what debates are supposed to be. That's how I approach discussion, my goal isn't to argue to be right but to learn something and possibly realize your own beliefs are flawed. You can learn things even from your enemies.

Why can't people just learn how to leave emotions out of the discussion and actually listen to what people say and have a discussion for its own sake? When coffee was introduced in the 17th and 18th centuries and it began to replace alcohol, it led to a "coffeehouse culture" where people had intense debates and it literally led to the Enlightenment era. Why can't people still do this?

These are rhetorical questions btw. Ultimately the why doesn't matter, people in 2024 are the way they are, and if they are not capable of having rational discussions anymore, then don't engage them. So, the only solution is to walk away from them the second they get emotional or unreasonable.

 

[BPH]

No.

 

[BaronOfHair]

In the present-day US , a large percentage of White women* have gone Woke, and well over half of Black women embody the stereotypes about that particular demographic to a T. The former is afflicted with a shortage of curiosity, while the latter are simply f-cking pigs, rather than human beings. Attempting to converse with gals within either of these brackets is thus less gainful than expecting Hollywood to declare a moratorium on remakes anytime soon


*More specifically, lots of White women throughout The English speaking world have gone this

route

 

[SW15]

In fact, "educated" (especially post-grad) "career women" are literally my biggest red flag now. If a women is a workaholic and/or defines herself by her job (unless it's operating her own business, which I actually love and respect a lot) I don't want anything to do with her.

The "career women" group is a difficult group.

The biggest upside that they offer is that they are often childless later into life. Most men struggle to get big age gaps once they get into their 30s/40s. A childless woman 30+ will often be a "career woman". The downside related to this conversation is that they'll often have the leftist ideology.

I think it's a good idea to discuss birth control practices prior to having sex. That isn't realistic in some situations. Same night sex from a nightlife venue approach is not likely to result in a discussion of birth control practices. Additionally, first date sex (either from an app arranged first date or a real life arranged first date) isn't likely to result in a birth control discussion either.

Prior? Sure, if you can do it without killing sexual tension.

It can be done and it doesn't have to kill any sexual tension. I've done it. I don't recall this forum ever having a specific thread on it.

If a man follows Iron Rule of Tomassi #5 (always use protection), he doesn't need to have this conversation. He will use a condom at the appropriate time. I do like the idea of knowing if a woman is on birth control prior to sex, but it matters less if the man uses condoms in every sexual instance as I do.