Male Friends

[Barrister]

Late getting into this thread and have not read the 7 pages of replies but I will chime in based on your original post.

Back when I was blue-pilled and married, my wife left me for one of her male buddies who she then entered a multi-year LTR with. I never thought he was a threat because he was a 4 and she was an 8 or a 9. They barely ever hung out and she almost never talked about him. You just never know with women.

The girl I just dated for a year and recently broke up with had a lot of beta male orbiters. I didn't feel threatened by them because none of them were anywhere close to her in looks, but that may have been naïve on my part given what happened with my ex wife. I'll never know for sure if anything happened with her and any of those guys but I have reason to believe something did.

At the same time, you can't control women either. If a woman wants to cheat, she will cheat. However, I do think that drawing clear boundaries is important because it accomplishes several things. First and foremost is that it forces her to ACT and make a decision on what is more important, seeing her male friends 1:1 or being in a committed relationship with you. In my book, no person in a committed relationship should be spending time 1:1 with someone of the opposite sex. That is a boundary for me and it applies to me equally as it applies to a girl I'm in a relationship with. There are some women who won't accept that boundary, and will try to label me as insecure or controlling for it. That's ok. Those women can go date someone else instead of me. Second is that it reduces the chance that an emotional affair happens, which can then lead to a physical affair, and it reduces the chances of someone meddling in your relationship. If a woman WANTS to cheat, she will, but if your boundaries remove her from the types of situations that evolve into an affair or cheating, it does reduce the risk. And it's also very important that you are standing up for yourself - by setting these boundaries. Good women will respect your doing this.

If you aren't exclusive with a girl, then I wouldn't bring up male friends. I just take note at the stage in the dating process as to if she has any male friends and if so, how many, and how close they are and compare and contrast the same for her female friends. The more male friends she has and the fewer female friends she has, the bigger the red flag. I have learned not to enter exclusive relationships with women like that. But if she asks to be exclusive, and you really want to be, then that would be the time to bring up the guy friends and how you couldn't be in an exclusive relationship with a girl who spends time 1:1 with other men - it's just not what you are looking for.

Because you said you were concerned with how bringing up her guy friend(s) would go, and that she would react negatively to it, I will say that I have learned it is VERY important to form and communicate your own boundaries without thought as to whether a girl is going to like them or not. You can't worry whether or not she will like your boundary. You simply state your boundary and if she doesn't like it, you walk away and never look back.

I remember you and I's most recent ex's sounded so similar when we spoke in another thread.

OP - I can tell you just like @oldmanofthesea that you must set down this boundary very clearly from the beginning. In the LTR I just got out of, this was a constant struggle and it ended up being one of the primary reasons I ended things at the end. When you are brand new in a relationship as I was 2.5 years ago, it is easy to not want to appear insecure or rock the boat by talking about your new LTR's supposedly "platonic" relationships with men.

I can tell you my ex constantly did 1 on 1 meetings with her male orbiters and it was not remotely appropriate. I let it pass constantly at the beginning. Towards the end of the relationship (less than a year prior), there was a specific orbiter who she became VERY friendly with. I have written about it here in other posts as well as in the NC thread. I attempted to put a boundary down at this time -- but my problem was I had let this type of behavior go on for so long that it was hopeless. She then crossed the boundary in multiple ways towards the end of the relationship (and I only knew this was happening because I looked at her phone - she specifically did not tell me because I had told her I wasn't okay with it) with this specific orbiter and it was a complete violation of trust.

My point is that you have to set down the boundary early in the relationship so she understands the expectation. I agree with @oldmanofthesea that 1 on 1 time with a male (that isn't you or a family relation of hers) should not be happening. Being friends is fine in social settings -- but there is never a reason for a woman in a committed LTR to be 1 on 1 with a male (that isn't you) in a non-professional setting. Movie night with another male "friend" sounds like something my ex would have thought was ok. That is absolutely not ok if you are exclusive.

 

[B80]

I remember you and I's most recent ex's sounded so similar when we spoke in another thread.

OP - I can tell you just like @oldmanofthesea that you must set down this boundary very clearly from the beginning. In the LTR I just got out of, this was a constant struggle and it ended up being one of the primary reasons I ended things at the end. When you are brand new in a relationship as I was 2.5 years ago, it is easy to not want to appear insecure or rock the boat by talking about your new LTR's supposedly "platonic" relationships with men.

I can tell you my ex constantly did 1 on 1 meetings with her male orbiters and it was not remotely appropriate. I let it pass constantly at the beginning. Towards the end of the relationship (less than a year prior), there was a specific orbiter who she became VERY friendly with. I have written about it here in other posts as well as in the NC thread. I attempted to put a boundary down at this time -- but my problem was I had let this type of behavior go on for so long that it was hopeless. She then crossed the boundary in multiple ways towards the end of the relationship (and I only knew this was happening because I looked at her phone - she specifically did not tell me because I had told her I wasn't okay with it) with this specific orbiter and it was a complete violation of trust.

My point is that you have to set down the boundary early in the relationship so she understands the expectation. I agree with @oldmanofthesea that 1 on 1 time with a male (that isn't you or a family relation of hers) should not be happening. Being friends is fine in social settings -- but there is never a reason for a woman in a committed LTR to be 1 on 1 with a male (that isn't you) in a non-professional setting. Movie night with another male "friend" sounds like something my ex would have thought was ok. That is absolutely not ok if you are exclusive.

well yeah and thats the thing isn;t it. some saying male friends are fine and don't be insecure... I agree, if it's just when meeting in social situations, when others are around (although would be foolish not to have a degree of vigilance, even if small)

but one on one at her place, watching a film together on the one couch she has just doesn;t sit right at all. can't imagine they just sat there for 2 hours just watching a film, lol, particularly knowing her sexually charged she is. of course nothing may have happened, but it's not something that can just be laughed off and I doubt many men would be happy finding out their g/f was in this situation, unless they dont care about her/losing her, for whatever reason.

 

[Bigpapa]

well yeah and thats the thing isn;t it. some saying male friends are fine and don't be insecure... I agree, if it's just when meeting in social situations, when others are around (although would be foolish not to have a degree of vigilance, even if small)

but one on one at her place, watching a film together on the one couch she has just doesn;t sit right at all. can't imagine they just sat there for 2 hours just watching a film, lol, particularly knowing her sexually charged she is. of course nothing may have happened, but it's not something that can just be laughed off and I doubt many men would be happy finding out their g/f was in this situation, unless they dont care about her/losing her, for whatever reason.

Relationships are more or less about boundaries

if a woman is putting herself in a position where she can be seduced , is not really a woman that you can build things with

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Relationships are more or less about boundaries

if a woman is putting herself in a position where she can be seduced , is not really a woman that you can build things with

Their action alone prevents "building". How will your "stuff" build up to someone causing distraction, disruption, and devauluation? It can't...

 

[Bigpapa]

Their action alone prevents "building". How will your "stuff" build up to someone causing distraction, disruption, and devauluation? It can't...

I think that it has more to do with trust . A relationship that does not have trust is doomed

everything else can be perfect , but trust is the element that glues everything togheter from not falling apart

a woman that puts herself in positions to be seduced , sooner or later she will gave in to her impulse . It can be because she is mad at you for no reason , or because she’s bored , whatever

 

[mrgoodstuff]

I think that it has more to do with trust . A relationship that does not have trust is doomed

everything else can be perfect , but trust is the element that glues everything togheter from not falling apart

a woman that puts herself in positions to be seduced , sooner or later she will gave in to her impulse . It can be because she is mad at you for no reason , or because she’s bored , whatever

Trust is important, but if all of her actions are derogatory behind your back, if she doesn't value you, if she's always doing things that cause disruption and a loss of peace, that no "building" can occur.

 

[AlphaDraconis]

It’s a pity relationships cant just be straight forward... shouldn’t have to resort to keeping a woman on her toes and so forth, but it seems many women want to experience a whole range of emotions, including anxiety / excitement... likely the reason they love horror movies, and bad boys because they know how to keep them on their toes and give them that adrenaline rush.

I once questioned a girl about this, and she told me that they do - more than anything - want a loving man, but they don’t trust experiencing a loving relationship because the heartbreak is too much to deal with if he suddenly becomes abusive, cheats, etc, so they’ll get with a bad boy because a loveless man can’t really break her heart. This is apparently why they try tame him, and if they succeed, their ‘engulfment’ issues kick in, so they dump him.

 

[rjc149]

but one on one at her place, watching a film together on the one couch she has just doesn;t sit right at all.

...nor should it.

There's a very, very high likelihood nothing happened. If she does it again, there's an equally high likelihood that nothing happens. It's quite possible, that right now, they are just friends.

She'll jump to defend herself "but nothing happened!"

It's not whether something happened or not -- it's about setting boundaries up front and establishing a precedent of open communication. So, I wouldn't tell her "it's disrespectful" or "it's wrong to do that" -- tell her "I feel disrespected and like I have to watch out for you, and I don't want to have to do that."

She can invalidate your suspicion that something happened, if something genuinely didn't happen. She can invalidate your assertion that it's "wrong" if she doesn't feel it's wrong. But she cannot invalidate your feelings.

If she invalidates your feelings, she's not your girlfriend, and she's not going to be. Next.

So it's not whether she's fvcking this guy, or could. It's whether she respects her boyfriend's feelings, and whether she has any future qualms about movie night with this guy -- or another guy.

 

[Bigpapa]

So it's not whether she's fvcking this guy, or could. It's whether she respects her boyfriend's feelings, and whether she has any future qualms about movie night with this guy -- or another guy.

when things happen , the very bad sensation that either a woman , either a man feels has to do more with braking the trust , and beating yourself up for thinking that you are less of a woman or a man ( because you think that if you were super they would not have done things in the first place ) , than with the fact that they indeed did something

trust is super important in relationships or life in general . Imagine all the big brands , you buy from them because you trust that whatever they are selling is high quality . If an iPhone would be a sh1t phone you would not buy it anymore , and buy a Samsung as an example

 

[isasda66]

What about women being friends with their previous lovers. I have a friend who has slept with at least 3 people in our social circle. Funny part is two of them were with her in school from kindergarden. She now tries to hide her sexual escapades with these guys to potential future beta bucks. Even women themselves know male friends only want to fvck them. But only when it's convenient. She knows that if her potential beta bucks is sort of self respecting he will cease contact with her old circle and initiate her in his circle. This chick knows that but doesnt want to lose the attention.

Funny enough she is no longer best of friends with either of the guys she attended kindergarden, The guys themselves know she will create unnecessary drama with their LTRs or their LTRs will create drama once they find out.

Women know what is appropriate behaviour. If she does something stupid the only real option is to drop her. Anything else shows her that she has the upper hand. (This isnt for married men the divorce rape laws are complex and come into play here, sometimes its better to let her live her life and you live yours to secure your $$$)

My standard: Any girl communicating with exes or lovers will never progress beyond a plate.

 

[lgbs2004]

Any updates on this?

 

[B80]

Stayed over there last night. Firmly in FWB category for me now.

Had a couple of beers together and generally had a good laugh talking about all sorts. Her daughter was apparently excited to see me and came out of bedroom a few times. Mum was losing her rag and didn;t like the way she was getting pretty forceful, almost aggressive by the end. Sat down next to me and said 'I wish she'd f*** off' or very similar. She's said similar a couple of times recently. Get kids can be difficult but didn;t sit right with me. Near beginning of seeing each other she told me about a guy she was dating for 3 months early 2020, who broke up with her soon after an argument after she apparently said something like chucking her daughter into bed - wonder if there was more to it and she said something more inappropriate.

She's alluded to hating the inital part of being a mum and has no interest in more. Career driven and works 60 hours a week. Not a massive red flag in itself, but when I consider how she is around her daughter at times, I have to question someone like this having an influence in my daughters life over the long term...

We then ended up having sex and her daughter walked in. She put her to bed and then came in, got upset and then resumed where we left off.

Woke up this morning and didn't have usual spring in my step like I usually do after staying at hers. Feels like some kind of fog has dissipated and her faults now outshine the positives. Can now see things more objectively, rather than influenced by emotion, sex and her physical attractiveness. Weird feeling driving home, almost a bit empty as she has gone from someone I was infatuated with to almost being repulsed by and not only for the issues I mentioned above around her daughter.

This coupled with stories she's said about never loving her ex husband, the way she deals with people at work and her daughter, makes me question whats ticking under her bubbly, happy persona. She told me she's in therapy once a week, so who knows whats going on underneath the hood. Can't see any kind of serious relationship ending well for me with her...

So I'm content to keep her as someone I have sex with once or twice a week, to keep me in the game (particularly during lockdown) but can't see any chance for anything beyond that. If I'm being honest I couldn;t see it lasting long term even if I didn;t feel that way. Too many things I overlooked, which would no doubt become an issue as time goes by.

Winding back to how we were at the beginning, but will see how things go as at least at the beginning I was unaware of a few things, which now effect how attractive I find her. She is good fun to be around, so don;t want to go overboard, but definitely aware of shift in emotions/head the past few days.

Was sat there last night thinking at points whether to raise the thing about her male friend, but just thought I don;t care enough, certainly not enough to make myself vulnerable and expose myself to her.

Texting each other today and feels like a complete chore. If she calls it a day, so be it, would just be a bit of a shame to lose someone physically attractive to have sex with.

Could just be tired as only had 3 hours sleep. Probably in denial and I'll be back with another concern in a few weeks

 

[Bigpapa]

Stayed over there last night. Firmly in FWB category for me now.

Had a couple of beers together and generally had a good laugh talking about all sorts. Her daughter was apparently excited to see me and came out of bedroom a few times. Mum was losing her rag and didn;t like the way she was getting pretty forceful, almost aggressive by the end. Sat down next to me and said 'I wish she'd f*** off' or very similar. She's said similar a couple of times recently. Get kids can be difficult but didn;t sit right with me. Near beginning of seeing each other she told me about a guy she was dating for 3 months early 2020, who broke up with her soon after an argument after she apparently said something like chucking her daughter into bed - wonder if there was more to it and she said something more inappropriate.

She's alluded to hating the inital part of being a mum and has no interest in more. Career driven and works 60 hours a week. Not a massive red flag in itself, but when I consider how she is around her daughter at times, I have to question someone like this having an influence in my daughters life over the long term...

We then ended up having sex and her daughter walked in. She put her to bed and then came in, got upset and then resumed where we left off.

Woke up this morning and didn't have usual spring in my step like I usually do after staying at hers. Feels like some kind of fog has dissipated and her faults now outshine the positives. Can now see things more objectively, rather than influenced by emotion, sex and her physical attractiveness. Weird feeling driving home, almost a bit empty as she has gone from someone I was infatuated with to almost being repulsed by and not only for the issues I mentioned above around her daughter.

This coupled with stories she's said about never loving her ex husband, the way she deals with people at work and her daughter, makes me question whats ticking under her bubbly, happy persona. She told me she's in therapy once a week, so who knows whats going on underneath the hood. Can't see any kind of serious relationship ending well for me with her...

So I'm content to keep her as someone I have sex with once or twice a week, to keep me in the game (particularly during lockdown) but can't see any chance for anything beyond that. If I'm being honest I couldn;t see it lasting long term even if I didn;t feel that way. Too many things I overlooked, which would no doubt become an issue as time goes by.

Winding back to how we were at the beginning, but will see how things go as at least at the beginning I was unaware of a few things, which now effect how attractive I find her. She is good fun to be around, so don;t want to go overboard, but definitely aware of shift in emotions/head the past few days.

Was sat there last night thinking at points whether to raise the thing about her male friend, but just thought I don;t care enough, certainly not enough to make myself vulnerable and expose myself to her.

Texting each other today and feels like a complete chore. If she calls it a day, so be it, would just be a bit of a shame to lose someone physically attractive to have sex with.

Could just be tired as only had 3 hours sleep. Probably in denial and I'll be back with another concern in a few weeks

take out the fear or loosing sex with a good looking woman , even though I know that it is difficult . You should not fear this , as if a girl like her slept with you , by association it means that other good looking girls would sleep with you

when thinking about ltr , it is very important to vet as early on as possible for the qualities that makes a woman a good partner

 

[AlphaDraconis]

take out the fear or loosing sex with a good looking woman , even though I know that it is difficult . You should not fear this , as if a girl like her slept with you , by association it means that other good looking girls would sleep with you

when thinking about ltr , it is very important to vet as early on as possible for the qualities that makes a woman a good partner

Yes, I know OPs a similar age to myself, but regardless of age, guys in general IMO should learn to stop making sex such a priority, and, perhaps, expend energy into other enjoyable / constructive activities.

Desperation for / addiction to sex leads to simping, which just causes women to feel contemptuous towards men + gives them inflated egos and the power to exploit.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Stayed over there last night. Firmly in FWB category for me now.

Had a couple of beers together and generally had a good laugh talking about all sorts. Her daughter was apparently excited to see me and came out of bedroom a few times. Mum was losing her rag and didn;t like the way she was getting pretty forceful, almost aggressive by the end. Sat down next to me and said 'I wish she'd f*** off' or very similar. She's said similar a couple of times recently. Get kids can be difficult but didn;t sit right with me. Near beginning of seeing each other she told me about a guy she was dating for 3 months early 2020, who broke up with her soon after an argument after she apparently said something like chucking her daughter into bed - wonder if there was more to it and she said something more inappropriate.

She's alluded to hating the inital part of being a mum and has no interest in more. Career driven and works 60 hours a week. Not a massive red flag in itself, but when I consider how she is around her daughter at times, I have to question someone like this having an influence in my daughters life over the long term...

We then ended up having sex and her daughter walked in. She put her to bed and then came in, got upset and then resumed where we left off.

Woke up this morning and didn't have usual spring in my step like I usually do after staying at hers. Feels like some kind of fog has dissipated and her faults now outshine the positives. Can now see things more objectively, rather than influenced by emotion, sex and her physical attractiveness. Weird feeling driving home, almost a bit empty as she has gone from someone I was infatuated with to almost being repulsed by and not only for the issues I mentioned above around her daughter.

This coupled with stories she's said about never loving her ex husband, the way she deals with people at work and her daughter, makes me question whats ticking under her bubbly, happy persona. She told me she's in therapy once a week, so who knows whats going on underneath the hood. Can't see any kind of serious relationship ending well for me with her...

So I'm content to keep her as someone I have sex with once or twice a week, to keep me in the game (particularly during lockdown) but can't see any chance for anything beyond that. If I'm being honest I couldn;t see it lasting long term even if I didn;t feel that way. Too many things I overlooked, which would no doubt become an issue as time goes by.

Winding back to how we were at the beginning, but will see how things go as at least at the beginning I was unaware of a few things, which now effect how attractive I find her. She is good fun to be around, so don;t want to go overboard, but definitely aware of shift in emotions/head the past few days.

Was sat there last night thinking at points whether to raise the thing about her male friend, but just thought I don;t care enough, certainly not enough to make myself vulnerable and expose myself to her.

Texting each other today and feels like a complete chore. If she calls it a day, so be it, would just be a bit of a shame to lose someone physically attractive to have sex with.

Could just be tired as only had 3 hours sleep. Probably in denial and I'll be back with another concern in a few weeks

Does this female really care about anyone? I mean she cares more about her career than her daughter. I'm sure you'll get more and more disgusted.

 

[B80]

take out the fear or loosing sex with a good looking woman , even though I know that it is difficult . You should not fear this , as if a girl like her slept with you , by association it means that other good looking girls would sleep with you

when thinking about ltr , it is very important to vet as early on as possible for the qualities that makes a woman a good partner

Yeah it's weird, my smv is probably higher than ever on paper. but still have this real weak point handling women.

Out of 10. Face 7/8. Physique 9. Income top few %. Personality middle of tge Road (unless drunk or once comfortable with woman).despite that, still have loads of work to do on self belief. Was there in my twenties, thought I'd matured and developed that side with doing well with career/business, fitness etc but this whole episode proves otherwise.

Reading posts on this forum, apparent I need to approach ALOT more, most women who've come into my life approached me first.

Chatting to blokes is easy, women I just tense up unless drunk or rare mood with them. Some kind of female social anxiety.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Reading posts on this forum, apparent I need to approach ALOT more, most women who've come into my life approached me first.

Chatting to blokes is easy, women I just tense up unless drunk or rare mood with them.

Learning to be nearly fearless in cold approach, and being good about pulling the trigger, has had the biggest impact on my romantic life. Doing that was the only way I had multiple women in my pipeline and ended up having to choose between which one I wanted to date, and having little care if things didn't work out with another. The empowerment that gives you manifests itself in so many ways that it leads to even greater abundance, because women can just smell the lack of neediness on you, and sense that there are other women vying for your attention.

I make it a habit to talk to women anywhere I am, even ones I'm not attracted to just to practice. The more you do it, the more you realize people won't react negatively like you assume. It's tough now with COVID but just hold out a bit longer and things should be back to normal soon.

 

[B80]

Learning to be nearly fearless in cold approach, and being good about pulling the trigger, has had the biggest impact on my romantic life. Doing that was the only way I had multiple women in my pipeline and ended up having to choose between which one I wanted to date, and having little care if things didn't work out with another. The empowerment that gives you manifests itself in so many ways that it leads to even greater abundance, because women can just smell the lack of neediness on you, and sense that there are other women vying for your attention.

I make it a habit to talk to women anywhere I am, even ones I'm not attracted to just to practice. The more you do it, the more you realize people won't react negatively like you assume. It's tough now with COVID but just hold out a bit longer and things should be back to normal soon.

Cheers mate, makes sense and ties in with so many other posts on this site.

Out of interest did you find alcohol initially helped with the approaches or did you just throw yourself in at the deepend and do it sober?

I always make a point of chatting to the hottest girl in the supermarket to try on work on that side of things.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Out of interest did you find alcohol initially helped with the approaches or did you just throw yourself in at the deepend and do it sober?

No, you have to do it sober in my opinion. The learning and lessons stick better that way and the interactions usually go a lot better. You are more observant and able to take cues from them too. I actually don't even like approaching when I'm tipsy these days because I'm not as quick on my feet.

 

[B80]

No, you have to do it sober in my opinion. The learning and lessons stick better that way and the interactions usually go a lot better. You are more observant and able to take cues from them too. I actually don't even like approaching when I'm tipsy these days because I'm not as quick on my feet.

I know what you mean, alcohol sometimes makes you more lethargic and less sharp. I find it helps remove over thinking when chatting to women, but it's clearly a crux.

Phenibut is a bit more subtle, but helps take the edge off things. But again, another crux.

Then sleep less, take modafinil to compensate lack of sleep, end up in a whirlwind of drugs.

Need a few weeks to reset the clock.