WTF is happening in Europe

[BlueAlpha1]

If an employee agrees to $2/hour, what's your problem with that.

This is theater of the absurd now. Give me a break.

If a slave agrees to be a slave, what's your problem with that? Let's find a few delusional, self-hating black men and then abolish the 13th amendment while we're at it.

For the third time, the law is based on logic. It's completely illogical to ask me this question when you look at the cost of living. They have a name for people who cling to black and white theories against all evidence and real life circumstance. It's called an ideologue.

Please be reasonable.

 

[Tictac]

on a football field where end-zone red is fascism and end-zone blue is communism, the guy is around the red 25 yard line. You're expressing a view far to the right of one of the most conservative public figures in the country.

Wrong end zones sport. You bought the big lie.

"In the greatest hoax of modern history, Russia’s ruling ‘socialist workers party,’ the Communists, established themselves as the polar opposites of their two socialist clones, the National Socialist German Workers Party (quicknamed ‘the Nazis’) and Italy’s Marxist-inspired Fascisti, by branding both as ‘the fascists.' This is the spin of all spins, he says, has played “havoc” upon Western political discourse ever since.

We see this today as our Liberals brand everyone who opposes them as "right wing fascists". When they themselves employe every fascist tenet. Including corporatism.

Is it not sad that those who try and uphold the Constitution and our Founders are decried as "extremists" "right wing" "intolerant bigots!""

Tom Wolfe

 

[YawataNoKami]

It's not a minority anymore. I'm a millenial that graduated in 2011. I know what my classmates and successors have been through. Our Baby Boomers grew up on this American Dream when it was a plausible reality, but never noticed companies kept moving the goalposts, all the while telling us to put our heads down & keep going. Now you've got millions - yes millions - of college educated people who are being asked to start with slightly higher than minimum wage jobs. In order to obtain a respectable salary, companies want 5 years experience. And by the time you've surpassed the 5 years, they've cut bonuses and benefits so much company-wide that a promotion means you'll end up breaking about even. This is a deliberate scam of epic proportions.

I've already pointed out that corporations are moving overseas anyway. Not raising the minimum wage from $7.25 is not stopping them from going to China where they can pay $1.30. If there's a good reason not to raise it, this isn't it.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree. But I'll be honest, this far right mentality seems to be a uniquely American thing. It is only here we can have multi-billionaires starving people with a sort of soft slavery, and people freak out.

What I think you're missing is $7.25 in 2016 does not equal $7.25 in 2006, so the minimum wage has for all intents and purposes been reduced when you adjust for inflation. But you continue to say don't change anything. The unintended consequence of this is you're giving tacit approval for corporations to continue to exploit & steal. And make no mistake, this increases the number of welfare recipients.

Bill O'Reilly of all people supports raising the minimum wage to $10 (I think it should be 12.) And on a football field where end-zone red is fascism and end-zone blue is communism, the guy is around the red 25 yard line. You're expressing a view far to the right of one of the most conservative public figures in the country.

A college degree means nothing , you went to collage........ who cares. Nobody. Specially if your "degree" is in some stupid , retarded mayor. Like literature or philosophy or gender studies.In today's world, most college degrees are worthless. The main reason is because there is a disconnect between what the colleges are teaching and what a person needs to know in order to perform a job. Employers today are leaning more toward individuals that have hands on experience while colleges are all about writing papers, taking tests, and reading books. People are graduating from college and unable to find suitable long term employment.Student debt is the next debt bubble to pop.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Wrong end zones sport. You bought the big lie.

"In the greatest hoax of modern history, Russia’s ruling ‘socialist workers party,’ the Communists, established themselves as the polar opposites of their two socialist clones, the National Socialist German Workers Party (quicknamed ‘the Nazis’) and Italy’s Marxist-inspired Fascisti, by branding both as ‘the fascists.' This is the spin of all spins, he says, has played “havoc” upon Western political discourse ever since.

We see this today as our Liberals brand everyone who opposes them as "right wing fascists". When they themselves employe every fascist tenet. Including corporatism.

Is it not sad that those who try and uphold the Constitution and our Founders are decried as "extremists" "right wing" "intolerant bigots!""

Tom Wolfe

You're an idiot. I can't stand liberals, but I understand that you have to adapt. Challenging the sort of unchecked corporate creed that caused the recession in 2008 doesn't make you a "commie". Don't invoke the Constitution and drape yourself in the flag of democracy if you're going to advocate for fascism and oligarchy. Go ahead and tell me that slavery should have remained legal until 1865 because for 90 years it was "Constitutional." The Founding Fathers are rolling in their grave listening to you.

 

[Tictac]

You're an idiot. I can't stand liberals, but I don't understand that you have to adapt. I don't want slavery and unchecked corporate creed. Don't invoke the Constitution and our Founding Fathers if you're going to advocate for fascism and oligarchy. Go ahead and tell me that slavery should have remained legal until 1865 because for 90 years it was "Constitutional." The Founding Fathers are rolling in their grave listening to you.

Thanks for revealing to everyone here that you haven't a clue or a way to find one, that you do not have the brain cells to even address the quote I posted and for definitively demonstrating the intellect of a 9 year old rage monkey.

You are pathetic beyond belief.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

A college degree means nothing , you went to collage........ who cares. Nobody. Specially if your "degree" is in some stupid , retarded mayor. Like literature or philosophy or gender studies.In today's world, most college degrees are worthless. The main reason is because there is a disconnect between what the colleges are teaching and what a person needs to know in order to perform a job. Employers today are leaning more toward individuals that have hands on experience while colleges are all about writing papers, taking tests, and reading books. People are graduating from college and unable to find suitable long term employment.Student debt is the next debt bubble to pop.

I agree with all that, so take yes for an answer.

My primary focus in this that if inflation continues to drive up the cost of living every year, expecting people to work for the same wage as before makes no sense. Don't remember how I got sidetracked to college debt, but understand my main point is if you are against increasing the minimum wage, you incidentally are driving people towards welfare.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Thanks for revealing to everyone here that you haven't a clue or a way to find one, that you do not have the brain cells to even address the quote I posted and for definitively demonstrating the intellect of a 9 year old rage monkey.

You are pathetic beyond belief.

Isn't 64 years old a little early to be senile?

I pointed out that Bill O'Reilly, the big kahuna at the one and only conservative news network in America, is for the minimum wage increase. You quoted me on this and then started talking about the Russians. What is the point you were making, that O'Reilly is not a real conservative?

You're the person who didn't address a single point I made in a half-dozen prior posts in the thread.

Don't drape yourself in the flag of democracy by invoking the Constitution. Oddly enough, the militias who gather ready to fight fascism, are pretty right wing in their beliefs themselves. As you have proven. Because I'm no lefty, but anyone to the left of gun toting militia members is, to you, a communist.

You're a disillusioned old moron and your kind is a dying breed. Get lost.

 

[Tictac]

Isn't 64 years old a little early to be senile?

I pointed out that Bill O'Reilly, of all people, the big kahuna at the one and only conservative news network in America, is for the minimum wage increase. You quoted me and then started talking about the Russians. What is the point you were making, that O'Reilly is not a real conservative? You're the person who didn't address a single point I made in a half-dozen prior posts in the threat.

Don't drape yourself in the flag of democracy by invoking the Constitution, because it changes all the time. It was once used to justify segregation. Did you know?

You're a disillusioned old moron and your kind is a dying breed. Get lost.

You are pitiful rage monkey of no intellect or education spouting nonsense that mistakes name calling for being a man. My quote was from Tom Wolfe one of America's finest 20th century authors and no 'right wing conservative'. I addressed your hilarious assumption that fascism is the opposite of communism by editing out the part of your uninformed, populist drivel.

Spew your weenie attempts at insults. Stamp your feet while you're at it junior. You are no one going nowhere, an empty shell typing on a keyboard.

 

[speed dawg]

You're an idiot. I can't stand liberals, but I understand that you have to adapt. Challenging the sort of unchecked corporate creed that caused the recession in 2008 doesn't make you a "commie". Don't invoke the Constitution and drape yourself in the flag of democracy if you're going to advocate for fascism and oligarchy. Go ahead and tell me that slavery should have remained legal until 1865 because for 90 years it was "Constitutional." The Founding Fathers are rolling in their grave listening to you.

The issue is that those rich people in those corporations create more jobs with their spending money. It's up to you to find a way to go out there and get your share. If you are asking more minimum wage increases, you are NEVER going to get ahead of the curve. If anything, that welfare is the most effective way possible of keeping people in their current situation and giving zero incentive to work.

You can't blame the corporations for making money. And you can't make them give it to you. It can't be done. I understand many millenials have had it rough in the current job market, but it's not the baby boomers who have kept you down, at least not my economic means. The baby boomers have kept you down because they are your PARENTS, and they allowed and enabled the type of thinking you possess today.

The correction factor between the U.S. and the developing countries (our minimum wage vs. their $1) is NEEDED in order to bring jobs back here. Trump is going to put a tariff in place, which will help some. But ultimately we are going to have to cut back on welfare.

 

[AttackFormation]

The issue is that those rich people in those corporations create more jobs with their spending money. It's up to you to find a way to go out there and get your share. If you are asking more minimum wage increases, you are NEVER going to get ahead of the curve. If anything, that welfare is the most effective way possible of keeping people in their current situation and giving zero incentive to work.

You can't blame the corporations for making money. And you can't make them give it to you. It can't be done. I understand many millenials have had it rough in the current job market, but it's not the baby boomers who have kept you down, at least not my economic means. The baby boomers have kept you down because they are your PARENTS, and they allowed and enabled the type of thinking you possess today.

The correction factor between the U.S. and the developing countries (our minimum wage vs. their $1) is NEEDED in order to bring jobs back here. Trump is going to put a tariff in place, which will help some. But ultimately we are going to have to cut back on welfare.

Imo, the problem with the "job market" (a name which simplifies it, it's really about taking humanity's knowledge and skill from one generation to the next) is that the interests of employers are the polar opposite of the common interest. Corporations ideally want to work in the opposite way that a community (the best way to teach people) does.

- Corporations want to spend as few resources on employees as possible. If they can use free/slave labour, they will. If they can eliminate employees completely so they don't have to pay or teach anyone, they will. They don't want to have to spend resources on teaching anyone how to perform a job or learn something.
- The fewer people who are able to compete with the corporation because of possessing the same skill set, the better. If they can stop people from getting educated, or getting access to resources they need to make use of their education, they will.
- The natural tendency of corporations is toward monopoly, to shut out as many other people as possible.

These factors work together to become worse.

When you put the future of the species in the hands of a few you will eventually get a monopoly on knowledge, resources and opportunity. Humans need to learn from the previous generation or they won't retain the skills. If you leave that in ONLY the hands of the psychopathic tendencies that direct corporations and you make them unrestricted then eventually - not soon, but at some point in time - you will end up with a technocratic ownership class and an underclass, because that is what a company seeks to create. It's similar to colonialism but internally.

 

[Tictac]

- The natural tendency of corporations is toward monopoly, to shut out as many other people as possible

Corporations will try to go that way. But they cannot succeed, for very long at least, without co-opting governments to enforce the monopoly. Since the Industrial Revolution, I don't think that there is a single example of an effective monopoly that did not achieve and try to maintain itself without buying politicians (who willingly sell themselves on the cheap), (DeBeers may be an exception) to prevent new entrants to a market. The exception are companies like Alcoa or Microsoft that have superior products/services with low prices.

Monopolistic pricing attracts new entrants and substitutes.

I also don't see how a monopoly on knowledge and opportunity can exist for very long. But I'm always ready to learn something.

There are things wrong with 'big'capitalism, especially corpotocracy and crony capitalism. Those involve fusing corporations with the state. Those problems are nothing like what happens with an over-large, over-powerful state. The 20th century is proof of that.

I think this is always going to be a 'discussion' with ebbs and flows of too powerful companies and too powerful states with citizens, voters and taxpayers getting caught under the wheels. For me, less government is generally better.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Ah, I see you are migrating from the point that people should become adults and learn skills. I can only surmise that you have no counter to my point and thus I win on that one.

But, let's follow your question....


Why not abolish it entirely? Do you really think enough will work for $2 an hour to make a business viable?

Well, since I quite obviously agree that people should take personal responsibility and own skills, I didn't go to bat against that point. If you want to take that as a win for your cause, by all means.

And yet, seconds later, you answered my question with a question. I guess your attempts to obfuscate means I won that point.

Yes, I do think someone desperate enough will take anything if you can convince a gullible person it's not so bad. Waitresses make $2 an hour and have to rely on tips to get to $7.25. I talk to Uber drivers who make $4 an hour.

You can convince them to do it in a number of ways: make the prospect of higher pay achievable through commission, but set unrealistic goals. Promise raises of the sort that will come every year if you just work hard enough, then keep changing the goal posts. And so on...

For the 50th time, we already have people giving free labor with this internship scam. I encourage you to read about it a little bit because you might not know how they work. Let me tell you, America isn't the only place that crushes poor people in the name of limitless productivity. They do it in China too, for example, where factory workers jump to their death by the dozens over these kinds of sickening working conditions.

At this point, since a few people in this thread seem so resistant to take an ethical stand on any question should it conflict with "the Constitution", I don't think we're going to have any more progress in this thread. Because by your logic, we could justify slavery if we just find a few people willing to do it. There are no ethical intuitions or judgment calls.

I know, I'm a [conservative-leaning] communist. What an ironic twist.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

The issue is that those rich people in those corporations create more jobs with their spending money. It's up to you to find a way to go out there and get your share. If you are asking more minimum wage increases, you are NEVER going to get ahead of the curve. If anything, that welfare is the most effective way possible of keeping people in their current situation and giving zero incentive to work.

You can't blame the corporations for making money. And you can't make them give it to you. It can't be done. I understand many millenials have had it rough in the current job market, but it's not the baby boomers who have kept you down, at least not my economic means. The baby boomers have kept you down because they are your PARENTS, and they allowed and enabled the type of thinking you possess today.

The correction factor between the U.S. and the developing countries (our minimum wage vs. their $1) is NEEDED in order to bring jobs back here. Trump is going to put a tariff in place, which will help some. But ultimately we are going to have to cut back on welfare.

If the law is based on logic, I can certainly say that it is reprehensible for corporations to make billions of dollars every year, and then continue to tighten the stranglehold on their employees every year by paying less and demanding more, so that they can hoard more, even while the cost of living continues to rise. And as a tax paying voter, I feel that as a matter of public policy, if somebody is going to get "screwed over", which seems inevitable given this seismic conflict of interest, I can put my head on the pillow easier knowing its a few billionaires rather than millions of poor people.

We've never seen this level of unchecked corporate greed before. I respect your difference of opinion, as you haven't taken a whack at me like a few others have, but I'm curious about everyone on your side of the argument. How far does a company have to go before one is willing to go before government oversight is called for. $2 an hour? $1 a day? Free labor? Child labor? At some point, we have to have a meeting of the minds where elected officials step in, in the interest of the people who voted for them.

Yes, the Baby Boomers are 50% at fault for this mess. Let's call a spade a spade--when we were young and impressionable, it was they who refused to see the signs that the American Dream is broken. More qualified applicants for every job, an unprecedented student debt crisis, outsourcing and the disintegration of what a college degree means. These are things they didn't deal with in the 70's. And yet, we were guided towards the exact same life meme of college-job-house-marriage-retirement-death that worked for them in the 70's. Talk to them today, and they still see the world in these rose-colored glasses. Us millenials are just lazy, and we must be making these problems up?

Of course, most people get out of college around 21-25. From there, we are solely responsible for what happens from then on out.

 

[speed dawg]

If the law is based on logic, I can certainly say that it is reprehensible for corporations to make billions of dollars every year, and then continue to tighten the stranglehold on their employees every year by paying less and demanding more, so that they can hoard more, even while the cost of living continues to rise. And as a tax paying voter, I feel that as a matter of public policy, if somebody is going to get "screwed over", which seems inevitable given this seismic conflict of interest, I can put my head on the pillow easier knowing its a few billionaires rather than millions of poor people.

It's all circular. Those guys don't have that money in a bunker underground. It's in the real world, creating jobs for financial people, people who service airplanes, boats, whatever. Restaurants, hotels, houses, etc. It's not all about the people working for the corporations.

We've never seen this level of unchecked corporate greed before. I respect your difference of opinion, as you haven't taken a whack at me like a few others have, but I'm curious about everyone on your side of the argument. How far does a company have to go before one is willing to go before government oversight is called for. $2 an hour? $1 a day? Free labor? Child labor? At some point, we have to have a meeting of the minds where elected officials step in, in the interest of the people who voted for them.

You get paid what you're worth. Make yourself valuable. Nobody is going to make you do this. You can't blame anyone else.

What is your degree in, if you don't mind me asking? And what type of job are you expecting?

 

[Tictac]

"There are no ethical intuitions or judgement calls" is precisely what a nation of laws is. At least so far as the constituted government is concerned.

Slavery wasn't out-intuitioned or out-judgemented. It was outlawed. Is slavery abhorrent? Of course it is.

You can intuit or judge that your neighbor's dog crapping in your yard in punishable by death for the dog and the owner. I have no intention of living in your world. No sane person would.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

We may have a gentleman's disagreement on the substance of this, but I appreciate the robust discussion.

I have a completely useless Bachelor of Arts in Communications with emphasis in Public Relations, and I don't expect anything out of it at this point. It was the kind of thing where a few relatives were whispering in my ear that "you'd probably like to do that, because you imitated those sports broadcasters calling the big goal as a kid." Coupled with a few guidance counselors telling you as long as it's before junior year you could always change your mind. Junior year came, and I just decided to finish.

I'm taking my $29,000 student loan debt as a partial loss, for it's a totally pointless and useless degree if you're not seeking to become a newscaster or press secretary. However, I will grant that any 4-year degree is at least, an overall resume booster. It simply does put you above any candidate of similar skills who doesn't otherwise have one. You can be interviewing for a totally unrelated position as use it as fodder to strengthen your overall package.

I was able to land a sales job making about $50,000 a year straight out of college, and my expenses were low enough (I'm single, no kids) that I saved $17,000 in one calendar year, which I was able to more than double. This eventually became my nest egg because I got laid off, and have since been trying my hand day-trading and writing.

On the other hand, my minor was is Spanish, and this has proved invaluable. I have been to 7 Spanish speaking countries and accrued nearly 10 years of study through high school and college, and this has not only helped me in real life situations but I was able to capitalize on sales in the Spanish demographic. I actually made money as a direct result of studying this in school (though it can now be self-taught pretty easily on the internet.) I wish I'd majored in it and became a freelance translator instead.

 

[Tictac]

We may have a gentleman's disagreement on the substance of this, but I appreciate the robust discussion.

I have a completely useless Bachelor of Arts in Communications with emphasis in Public Relations, and I don't expect anything out of it at this point. It was the kind of thing where a few relatives were whispering in my ear that "you'd probably like to do that, because you imitated those sports broadcasters calling the big goal as a kid." Coupled with a few guidance counselors telling you as long as it's before junior year you could always change your mind. Junior year came, and I just decided to finish.

I'm taking my $29,000 student loan debt as a partial loss, for it's a totally pointless and useless degree if you're not seeking to become a newscaster or press secretary. However, I will grant that any 4-year degree is at least, an overall resume booster. It simply does put you above any candidate of similar skills who doesn't otherwise have one. You can be interviewing for a totally unrelated position as use it as fodder to strengthen your overall package.

I was able to land a sales job making about $50,000 a year straight out of college, and my expenses were low enough (I'm single, no kids) that I saved $17,000 in one calendar year, which I was able to more than double. This eventually became my nest egg because I got laid off, and have since been trying my hand day-trading and writing.

On the other hand, my minor was is Spanish, and this has proved invaluable. I have been to 7 Spanish speaking countries and accrued nearly 10 years of study through high school and college, and this has not only helped me in real life situations but I was able to capitalize on sales in the Spanish demographic. I actually made money as a direct result of studying this in school (though it can now be self-taught pretty easily on the internet.) I wish I'd majored in it and became a freelance translator instead.

You are right about the bachelor's degree. You got your ticket punched. That's not nothing. I believe that the US population with a BA or BS has never exceeded 30%. Degree inflation now makes such a degree worth less than it once was but not worthless. And employers are asking for that hurdle to be crossed for all manner of jobs that used to not require it. So there's that?

A lot of people end up in jobs that have almost nothing to do with their 'major'. You won't be landing an engineer's job or other STEM job. But lots of young people end up in banking, finance and many other decent jobs with little more than you've already accomplished.

You have an entrepreneurial bent. Maybe get enough 'experience' working for someone and strike out on you own. That kind of work can pay the bills, maybe give you health coverage and allow you to save (which you are clearly good at - few people are).

 

[BlueAlpha1]

N

I answered your question with a question that completely says "Yes, there is nothing wrong with removing minimum wage", so don't play it up like I am obfuscating or dodging.

I completely disagree that people will work for wages that low without in turn trying to build a skill to earn more.

The problem is you are trying to fool market prices and you ignore human behavior. These are the fundamental issues which sink the liberal unicorn and rainbow dreams EVERY TIME.

I do find it ironic that you support taxing the productive to pay for those who choose not to be, but cite MY position as slavery.

It is YOUR position that promotes the giving of the earned to the unearned. My position is that people should only get what they earn. And everyone knows that slavery matches YOUR agenda and belief system, not mine.

Nobody is saying the janitor should make as much as the CEO. I'm not saying he shouldn't make 5x, 10x, or even 100x what his employees make. But how much more is enough for you? What level of exploitation is okay?

If you think it's okay for one person who makes $25,000,000 to pay someone $7.25 an hour, which amounts to $6.00 an hour after taxes, which amounts to $12,480 a year net pay, then we just have a fundamental disagreement about ethics. This is the master paying the slave, 0.0004992% of his own salary. Yes, that's a literal number.

And you're talking about who is punishing who - if you think that every CEO making a 10-digit salary got there honestly, and that taxing him 43.6% instead of 39% would be this grave injustice, I think you probably give them way too much credit. Many of them are implicated in disgusting overseas labor practices (like the one in China) that probably amount to crimes against humanity.

I'll end by saying that, in my travels to over 15 countries so far, I've spoken to fellow travelers from about 60 different countries, and the majority of them don't see it our way. This ungodly sense of greed, and getting there by any means necessary mind you, is fairly unique to America. But thanks for the debate.

 

[speed dawg]

I was able to land a sales job making about $50,000 a year straight out of college

Sounds like you are doing just fine. So what's your motivation here, to help others?

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Sounds like you are doing just fine. So what's your motivation here, to help others?

Motivation in this thread you mean? Or in general? This thread is a pretty good discussion, albeit fierce, about the minimum wage debate. There's a pretty big split in our country over this too, although I think a plurality agree with me & want it raised.

My overall message which I express in my writing is to warn young people about this life model. It's dangerous and not for everyone, yet it seems to be the one and only path drawn up for young people who are just about ready to leave the nest. They're never told to take their skills and ideas and take a chance starting a business or hell, to take a year to travel the world and learn to survive remotely. This is extremely common in other cultures because I've talked to these people. I'm calling for anything different from the 9-5 status quo for those who don't want it.

The 9-5 slave wage lifestyle is the stuff of a vicious cycle. Yes, low skilled workers get depressed about long hours for low pay. They get discouraged, addicted, and lose any basic skills they might have been able to capitalize on. They give up. I'm not encouraging people to stop working and live on welfare, but I'm telling them if they're going to be an employee, to narrow down the path and find something they love to do if they're going to do it 40 hours a week. And don't just get a bull**** degree because it's what everyone else is doing.

To be honest, even had I not been laid off I would have left that 50k job within another 6 months. I wasn't happy. I was selling gullible people garbage they didn't need, and allocating 11 hours a day to the company through unpaid lunches and commuting, despite only being paid for 8. I remember working a day shift after a night shift at least once a week. They were monopolizing 22+ hrs out of 36 in a 1.5 day period.

There has to be another way.

Anyway, truly sorry again if that "stuck in the middle class" bit came off the wrong way before. It came out uglier than it should have. There are 1 or 2 people who I seem to inevitably trade ad hominem attacks with, but you're not one of them.