wrote a speech, now im pretty sure im gonna try steroids.

[Colossus]

HRT is hormone replacement therapy.

Basically if your natural test levels are insufficient (i.e. you are symptomatic), an endo will prescribe therapeutic levels of test to get you back up to normal.

Juice affects everyone differently. I have a few cycles under my belt and I have rebounded fine, as far as how I feel, blood pressure, etc. You are young though so I urge you to wait and maybe revisit the idea in 5-6 years.

Another thing to consider is the social aspect. It can really change people's opinion of you, and you may not want that, for example your boss, professors, etc.

 

[maqnetik]

Long story short I messed up my hormones and my libido. Its been 4 years and im still having problems down there. It fu*king sucks. And yes I did everything correctly. I did a proper PCT, also did HCG, you name it. Im sure a lot of you dont know steroids slow down the production of your thyroid, which is also a bit low from the steroid use. FYI I used 500mg of Test Enanthate for 12 weeks. I agree with the guy who said you shouldnt use them unless your competing or in dire need, and I mean NEED. Good Luck with your decision.

ive got to give you props for coming from the heart with that and telling the truth-- that took GUTS. hope things work out for you-- how long did you take drugs?

 

[Crissco]

ive got to give you props for coming from the heart with that. hope things work out for you-- how long did you take drugs?

What do u mean how long did I take drugs? I dont do drugs bro. Smoked weed a couple of times, did steroids once, and thats was it. If your asking how long my cycle was, like I said it was 12 weeks.

 

[maqnetik]

What do u mean how long did I take drugs? I dont do drugs bro. Smoked weed a couple of times, did steroids once, and thats was it. If your asking how long my cycle was, like I said it was 12 weeks.

one time? youre still rebounding from a 3 month cycle? no offence but i meant steroids when i said drugs.

BTW: i can honestly say ive never done anything that could REMOTELY be considered "steroids" but i cant say i wasnt TEMPTED more than once, especially when so many guys with 1/4 of the work ive put in are walking around looking like a comic book character

 

[Crissco]

one time? youre still rebounding from a 3 month cycle? no offence but i meant steroids when i said drugs.

BTW: i can honestly say ive never done anything that could REMOTELY be considered "steroids" but i cant say i wasnt TEMPTED more than once, especially when so many guys with 1/4 of the work ive put in are walking around looking like a comic book character

Nah im not still rebounding, I ****ed things up peramintly, i guess my body wasnt ready at such a young age.

 

[j0n24]

Due to the nature of the subject matter there are lots of variables to why YOU had a bad cycle.

Most people have good results on 250mg which is what I would have done if it was my first cycle but thats just me.

This basically comes down to genetics on who will have a bad reaction but majority of the time gear is alot safer then that.

 

[Jack Wealthy]

If they can't deadlift more than 315 they're not strong.

What if they're in a wheel chair?
Seriously though, deadlift and parralel back squat (knees over crease of thigh) are really trained in powerlifting stle, no one does it seriously as the main training for a sport.
For most deadlift is an effect of their training and subsequent strength, not the cause of it.

 

[Julius_Seizeher]

Aside from the unfortunate effects described by Crissco, I'm pretty sure juicing often causes sudden heart failure too.

Not worth it.

 

[Fuglydude]

Aside from the unfortunate effects described by Crissco, I'm pretty sure juicing often causes sudden heart failure too.

Not worth it.

How do you define "sudden heart failure"? If you mean "fulminant" myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) deteriorating to acute heart failure... the answer is not really. Typically "sudden heart failure" and the preceding myocarditis can often occur due to an infectious agent, such as some kinda virus. A new study however, does seem to show that AAS use does affect LV EF (left ventricle ejection fraction) in long term AAS users:

http://www.theheart.org/article/1071741.do

Baggish AL, Weiner RB, Kanayama G, et al. Long term anabolic-androgenic steroid use is associated with left ventricular dysfunction. Circ Heart Fail 2010; DOI:10.1161/CIRCHEARTFAILURE.109.931063

A normal/health EF is typically around 65-70%. EF refers to the percentage/fraction of blood present in the left ventricle at the end of diastole that gets ejected into the systemic circulation by the action of the ventricle. Acceptable EF is pretty much anything > 55%. This article seems to suggest that EF is compromised w/ long term AAS use, probably due to morphological LV changes associated with these drugs. Having a lower EF means that AAS users will have a lower physiological reserve should they get into trouble with an MI (heart attack) or something like that.

If you mean sudden cardiac death (SCD), yes, anabolics can increase the risk of sudden cardiac death, but there are tons of other risk factors. Typically, sudden cardiac death is mitigated when one goes into a VF (ventricular fibrillation) and there is basically no blood getting ejected into the systemic circuit. A VF is a malignant heart rhythm that usually stems from an event where blood flow to a certain part of the heart's electrochemical conduction machinery is compromised. This results in messed up electrically signaling and thus the heart doesn't beat properly. There is also increased risk of VF in heart failure patients, as pathological changes to LV structure can make pt's more prone to VFs.

There are, however, multiple factors that affect risk of SCD, including family history, pervious MIs, CAD (coronary artery disease), having an EF < 45%, a "bad" lipid profile, global inflammation status as indicated by CRP (C-reactive protein), diabetes, drug use, etc. AAS use can increase risk of CAD, poor lipid profile, and EF as mentioned earlier. If you scan the literature, you'll find mostly case reports on SCD in AAS users... but no real definitive meta-analysis. Case reports, I think, are the "lowest form of life" when it comes to scientific studies, as they just basically tell a story and don't do a whole lot more.

My point with all this is, yes AAS use can definitely increase risk of adverse cardiovascular events. However, prudent/conservative use and appropriate surveillance of lipids, liver enzymes, eating a clean diet, and doing cardio can help to curb the risk and help to thwart any potential adverse events before the proverbial shiiite hits the fan. It all boils down to the cost-benefit analysis by the user/potential user.

 

[Colossus]

^^My man just dropped some science on the H&F forum.

Juicing itself does not cause SCD, unless you introduce some pathogen into your circulation via an injection of dirty gear and this developed into sepsis or myocarditis, pericarditis, etc.

AAS are well-known to transiently increase blood pressure and give your lipid profiule a negative balance (high LDL, low HDL), which over time can lead to cardiomyopathy and CAD. There is also some evidence it can contribute to left ventricular hypertrophy, which can lead to congestive heart failure among other problems.

Oral steroids are known to be hepatotoxic due to the chemical modification they undergo to successfully 'bypass' the liver and have some bioavailability. However, most of the data regarding morbidity and mortality with oral AAS use are in case study or case series form, which as Fugly said are really just anecdotes.

To reiterate, there is no safe drug. Any drug that ever existed has a risk and a potential benefit, and roids are no exception. The risks with these drugs are not as clearly defined as others. They arent the flat-out poison they are often made out to be, but they arent exactly protein powders either, and you cant just use them willy nilly without assuming some health risks. That would just be too good to be true.

 

[lugsy211]

Hey man, I come from a medical school background in the United Kingdom and I've been on the wards for the past 3 years. From a purely medical viewpoint I can tell you that steroids are something that we generally avoid at all costs.

A few of the main reasons are thus;

Reduced immune system: commonly noted side effect, if you ever get a sore throat or fevery symptoms, go see your doc.

Hypogonadism: the brains need for homeostasis initiates a negative feedback mechanism reducing the amount of testosterone produced by your testes, and they begin to shrink.

Mood disturbances

Gynaecomastia; breakdown of circulating steroid hormones in component parts, including oestrogen enhances breast tissue

Closure of the long bone growth plates; a friend of mine went on steroids for a kidney problem when he was a teen and he has lost a couple inches, still saved his life though.

This list is not exhaustive, but I can assure it is evidence based and I have seen evidence of this for the past 3 years, PM me if you need to talk about it in more detail.

 

[j0n24]

Most of what you said CAN be avoided with steps as well as PCT.

As for the growth....most people stop growing at a certain point which is AFTER they begin contemplating taking steroids. I would NOT expect someone at 14-16 to take steroids which is when they are still growing.

Most of what you said lugs can be avoided ...weird you've been the medical field for 3 years and can ONLY talk about the bad parts yet dont give him the solutions to the problem..

People that think like you are the reason why steroids has such a bad rap.

 

[lugsy211]

Okay I agree that what I noted was non-specific to body builders and more a brief list of steroid's adverse effects (fusing of growth plates usually occurs during adolescence, ending around 17) so please let me address the major issue,

'The solution to the problem'

Problem: perceived need to build more muscle and therefore lift more weight.

Solution; avoid steroid and PCT use completely as no drug has a perfect safety profile, you are always playing with the odds.
Push yourself to the limit without steroids, you will have less risk of long term complications but possibly increased risk of injury. Seek advice from people who have used steroids, recognise that your body may not respond exactly the same way depending on dosage schedule and other factors such as individual metabolism and hormone production.
Reflect/consider cognitive behavioural therapy, after speaking with a few doctors on a psychiatry placement today, they have indicated (anecdotally) that many young men come to them with false body image problems and could do with looking at the evidence for why they do not need need to use steroids (this has been resolved through cognitive behavioural therapy).

As a future doctor I always try to be systematic, and reasonable. When it comes down to it I always place my bet where there is the best chance of living a long, happy and healthy lifestyle.

 

[Colossus]

Most of what you said CAN be avoided with steps as well as PCT.

As for the growth....most people stop growing at a certain point which is AFTER they begin contemplating taking steroids. I would NOT expect someone at 14-16 to take steroids which is when they are still growing.

Most of what you said lugs can be avoided ...weird you've been the medical field for 3 years and can ONLY talk about the bad parts yet dont give him the solutions to the problem..

People that think like you are the reason why steroids has such a bad rap.

FWIW I am also in the medical field (training). 98% of the time when steroids are mentioned, discussed, or used in medicine they are CORTICOSTEROIDS. Corticosteroids, among many things, primarily treat inflammatory conditions. What our British counterpart didnt mention is that corticosteroids have a much worse side-effect profile than anabolic steroids, especially when we are talking about long-term use. Yet, their medical benefit usually supercedes the deleterious side effects, which is why they are given every single day across almost all specialties. Anabolic steroids (outside of HRT) are used very, very rarely in medicine; as their therapeutic use has been negated by better, safer drugs. As you might expect, very little is taught about them in medical school, and thus there are few clinicians who actually know what they are talking about when it comes to real-world use.

Almost no one in clinical medicine is going to advocate AAS use. It's not so much that their existing knowledge is wrong, but rather the perspective is different. You are taught about the adverse outcomes but you get very little if any teaching about athletic usage and prudent dosing and physique enhancement. From a medical perspective the risks simply outweigh the rewards.

 

[j0n24]

While in turn shows that most medical advice should be taken with a grain of salt. Most schools teach you a broad range of nothing to be exact....."Throw all this at the student and throw away what you dont need.''

Its VERY much a waste when you see it from a practical standpoint.

I wouldnt expect a doctor nor a nurse to know everything about anabolics but when they just spew the "Bad," Things yet have not even a vague glimmer of the positive things then it is asinine that they be allowed to speak on the subject matter.

lugs- Yes I agree steroids should be taken with the utmost care and THINGS can happen that are not forseen just due to genetics but labeling them all bad is farfetched to be honest.

Steroids are no worse then aspirin.

IF you take care and follow directions you limit the damage you can do to your body...IF NOT then suffer the consequences.

Aspirin is considered safe YET people still OD on the stuff oh but its "Safer," Then steroids it seems.

Also if the guy wants to take gear thats his choice....he wants to get gains faster then go for it its not my body. Hell I have been in the gym for 2 and 1/2 yrs straight and just barely contemplating gear to increase my gains and even then only looking at clenbutrol and t3 for fat loss.

 

[Fuglydude]

I would actually argue that aspirin is considerably worse than anabolics. Aspirin and other NSAIDs cause a surprising amount of death, typically from GI bleeds.

http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v100/n8/full/ajg2005305a.html

There is no such characterized number of deaths among AAS users as there are potentially a large variety of ways in which these users may succumb. Considering, however, that there are supposed to be some 1 million AAS users in the US, you'd think there would be definite analyzable patterns in deaths among AAS users.

Regarding use of AAS in traditional medicine, the uses are few and far between but they do exist. As Colossus said, corticosteroids are used FAR more extensively. I've actually made very assertive pushes in several cases for incorporation of anabolic therapy in cachectic/deconditioned critical care patients when we round w/ the physician team. We typically use 5 mg/day dermal testosterone patches in the ICU One cannot have a good quality of life if one is bedridden, cannot ambulate and cannot be weaned of ventilator support due to muscular weakness. Testosterone, physiotherapy and good diet can help formerly critically ill patients recover and rehabilitate. I think also anadrol has been used in the past for treating recovering burn victims.

As an aside, I think its crazy how you can be a full fledged general practitioner in the UK/Australia in just 5 years. Here in Canada you can't even be a fully certified CCRN (critical care registered nurse) in that time (4 year B.ScN followed by 2 years working where you get the required number of hours in). Our ICU attending physicians all have at least 14 years of post secondary (bachelors, MD, Residency, then ICU fellowship). This is probably why docs from the UK/Europe and Australia can't practice here as attending physicians unless they undergo rigorous retraining and examinations.

 

[Colossus]

It is a bit skewed considering the drugs we give out on a daily basis. NSAIDS are one of the leading causes of liver failure, renal failure, and GI bleeds. Acetominophen is (I think) the most commonly OD'ed drug next to alcohol. Perspective...