Would you consider her a "good" girl?

[MatureDJ]

As I'm fond of saying, the girl ƒucking the hot guy she met an hour earlier in the foam cannon party on spring break in Cancun is the same girl who'll tell you she's "just not comfortable enough to have sex with you yet" after you've spooned her for 3 hours with a hardon in your bed. She gets away with it because she uses the ASD contrivance to fillibuster your sexual desire.

Rollo, you presume that such a woman would have actually had a 1 hour stand, or at least would want to have one in the future (perhaps she is wiser than she was at that time.) I will agree that any woman who would give it up easily should be able to give it up to a man that she is beginning to get to know.

I think we all have forgotten about the nature of coitus - it is intimacy with all the consequences. This is the beauty of Clintonesque sex - it almost completely divorces the joy of sex (from the man's POV) from the possible repercussions (pregnancy, VD.) A woman who has gotten to the point of developing a certain level of relationship with her man should not have a problem with this type of service to her man (she can always ask the man to not ejaculate into her mouth, if she does not care for semen there.) I myself have not considered myself as having a truly steady type of relationship until she is making me ejaculate - and if it seems to be taking longer than it should, then I know I have a woman that either is not into me that much, or does not seem to be the type of woman that could completely satisfy me (i.e., ice queen.)

 

[aliasguy]

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I'll go along with the age thing, too.

33 is too old for these games, and GAMES is what they are.

In the movie Absence of Malice, Sally Field tells Paul Newman, "I'm over thirty: I don't need to be 'courted,' anymore." She just wanted him to make a REAL move, and nail her.



(Should I stop quoting stuff from films? I know they're not "real.")
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[ketostix]

Well I think ASD is real. It might have both a biological and social cause, but whatever the cause, is irrelevant to it existing or not. It might have various purposes for the woman, or as RT puts it serves as a tool, but it's purpose is irrelevent to whether or not it exists.

Just because ASD can be bypassed sometimes (and she might very well regret it later) like on springbreak after only knowing someone for a few minutes or whatever doesn't mean it doesn't exist either. The key word is bypassed sometimes. Just because a behavior doesn't exist sometimes, doesn't mean all the other times is exists is negated. That be like saying selfishness doesn't exist because sometimes a selfish person acts unselfish.

I think it is biological trait for women to have ASD. They have no real biological purpose or advantage for being with many guys and not being in a relationship. It's socially programmed too, but that doesn't mean it's always a bad thing for the male. if you're in a relationship, marriage or just plain don't want to share a girl you happen to be fvcking her ASD makes it harder for many other guys to fvck and inpregnate her.

To say ASD is just a tool she consciously or even unconsciously uses would be incomplete. Because if she uses the ASD tool what is the result? She doesn't sleep with guys and therefore she isn't a "slut".

Sure she could use "ASD" to hide her interest or desire in a man. But that doesn't mean everytime a guy encounters ASD on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd date or whatever, that is the reason for her ASD.

Some people think ASD is a woman getting isolated with a man, half naked, then she says, "It's too soon". No, that's LMR, a form of ASD. ASD is just a broad term for why women don't want to fvck or fvck as many different people as guys do. You can replace the "S" in a ASD with "Sex" if you don't like the term slut, or you could replace the whole acronym but the meanings still the same.

If one argues that a woman will have sex if she has enough desire and interest in the man, and won't have sex with a guy she doesn't have enough desire and interest in then as far as I'm concerned that's a form of ASD. So I just think it's a ridiculous argument to say ASD doesn't exist.

But my point is you cannot conclude without perfect information that a woman's ASD is because she doesn't have sufficent attraction, desire, or interest (basically likes you enough) in you when you been together on less than 4 occassions or so.

See my read on this, is this girl is making Str8up wait for sex, not making him wait and no sex. Big difference, and I don't see anything wrong with waiting a litle while for something that's pretty likely to happen. And I don't think the fact she fooled around a little so far is worse than if she didn't. I mean if she thinks she's going to have sex with him at a later date, I wouldn't expect her to just act like a prude then one day tear her clothes off and go wild. There's going to be a natural progression.

If all your wanting is sex sure cutting off every girl that doesn't give it up same day or with 3 meet ups is one way. But you'l probably end up with a lot of one-night stands. A girl giving up sex isn't the only reliable marker to her interest in you. If a girl gives up sex fast with me then I think it's a pretty good bet she gives up to a lot of other guys fast too. If she doesn't give it up fast then I look for other markers of her interest and if I see them, I think it's a safe bet she doesn't give it up fast to a lot of guys. You guys can try to slice it however you want, but a girl showing signs of interest with ASD is a marker that she's not a "slut".

 

[ketostix]

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I'll go along with the age thing, too.

33 is too old for these games, and GAMES is what they are.

In the movie Absence of Malice, Sally Field tells Paul Newman, "I'm over thirty: I don't need to be 'courted,' anymore." She just wanted him to make a REAL move, and nail her.



(Should I stop quoting stuff from films? I know they're not "real.")
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Well I think you might be confusing desperation for maturity and lack of games.

 

[aliasguy]

Well I think you might be confusing desperation for maturity and lack of games.

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Maybe you're right. I didn't think of that. I saw that movie way back in the early '80s, but for some reason, what she said stuck with me.
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[edger]

Me personally, I'll give it two "hangouts" before I ditch the b*tch for not going the full nine yards. Dragging it to the 3rd hangout doesn't feel right. If it doesn't happen by the second time, really, I'm out. There's no reason why it shouldn't happen by the second time...unless it goes against her beliefs.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I think maybe I should clarify my last post. I don't 'beleive' in ASD in the context that most PUAs/DJ seem to perceive it and certainly not in the way most AFCs do. I do not believe women are as worried about their "slut status" as most guys believe they are. Sexual reputation for women is no doubt important to a degree, but I think that the social contrivance of ASD in the way that men understand it is far more overblown than how women really experience it. Women are all too eager to reinforce this male perception because it serves their purpose as a whole. As I said before, the social mechanics of ASD make it unassailable and also bolster the "women-have-it-harder-than-men" victimhood that's served them well for centuries. However, in light of a majority of women's easily observable, contradictory behavior that occurs so often and under such obvious conditions it becomes predictable, I cannot think that ASD is considered anything more than the perfect tool to be used as fits a situation.

Let me also be clear in stating that I do not believe women have some grand scheme of manipulation in using ASD. It's become so ingrained in modern culture since well before the 20th century that it's part of both sexes upbringings and psychological gender understandings. My point is that ASD is now part of the "have it all" mentality women use to simultaneously play virtuous, chaste "good girl" but still have the prerogative to be independent, liberated and free "bad girl" as their conditions warrant. And again, I'm not raging against it or trying to say women ought not to do so - I'm certainly not going to change so concrete a conviction no matter how questionable. I'm saying be aware of it and plan accordingly as a man.

Now then, I'm glad KETOSTIX brought up LMR, because ASD-as-tool is a fillibuster for LMR. The real question hidden amongst the interpretations is WHY is a woman using ASD? Why does she have LMR? The easy answer to why a woman wont have sex is that she's concerned with reputation and/or self-image. I say this is the easy answer because it's the one most guys are willing to accept since it's the one most commonly reinforced. I believe it's a mistake to stop at just this basic easy answer. Why esle would she have ASD or LMR in a given situation? Because she's protecting her options. As, I said before, most women are master Plate Theorists, even within the confines of an LTR or marriage. Women know what comes with sexual intimacy, the emotional price tag that accompanies it. If she has a better prospect open to her that seems in any way feasible, you will be fillibustered - even if it's just to see if it pans out.

Comfortabilty is another rationale that women use as a fillibuster. "I'm just not comfortable enough to have sex with you yet" is a fillibuster, why? Because inspired, passionate sex is by definition uncomfortable. There is discomfort in sexual anxiety, sexual tension and desire that needs release and gratification. The most common reason couples experience sexual dissonance after years of marriage is that they become too comfortable with each other; so much so that they take one another for granted.

And to that point, what do you say to the wife who only wants conditional sex? What do you say to the woman who's had sex with a guy previously who now will only jerk him off? The quick answer is that the desire has changed for her, but if this is the case, why would we view this differently from the woman we're trying to convince to have sex with us for the first time?

The square root of ASD/LMR (even 'buyers remorse') is desire - real, genune, inspired desire. The argument had been presented earlier that desire can be controlled, that we're the gate keepers of our desire, and I'd agree with this to a point, but at some point desire will trump conviction, even against our best efforts. However the issue isn't control, but rather what is mitigating desire, and does this mitigation imply that the desire is less than genuine? And if it is less than genuine, what other agenda is motivating the behavior?

The only real validation of desire is exemplified in behavior. Uncoerrced behavior is the only real proof of motivation. This is exactly why I'm not a huge fan of PUA techniques that circumvent ASD or LMR. The woman's behavior proves a less than optimal desire so any salesmanship on the part of a PUA/DJ becomes coerrsion at worst and negotiation at best. Once negotiation is introduced, all genuine desire becomes suspect.

For example, the common ASD techniques of delaying sex for reasons of comfort or over concerns of sexual reputation automatically question desire because it establishes a frame where the man must qualify,"prove" himself meritous of her intimacy. Guys get put into the "friend-zone" for exactly the same reason, the only difference is that they are placed further away from that sexual goal than the guy who's stalled from ASD.

 

[STR8UP]

As I far I am concerned, up to a point, so long as a woman got me to ejaculate, I would be sexually satisfied (although I would want to ejaculate outside of my clothes.) I really prefer to only have full sex with a woman that I would not mind knocking up.

When I was bartending I met this group of nurses from up north. Ended up meeting them after my shift, and ended up "hooking up" with the alpha chick.

I ended up staying the night with her and her three friends in a hotel room, where she kindly allowed me to play with her huge t!tties and finger her pu$$y till my heart was content (with another chick in the bed, mind you), but for obvious reasons I didn't seal the deal. I wrote it off after she left.

She ended up coming back into town maybe six months later. Same deal. But this time I offered to take her back to my place. No dice. I should have cut it off right there, but desperate for any scrap I could get I hung in there. Ended up with her in the jacuzzi at the hotel, then...you guessed it....back in her room with sleeping in a bed with two chicks getting my finger wet and not much else.

Then she MOVES to my state, about 3 hours south of me, and comes to town to visit. A glutton for more punishment, I met up with her and her friends AGAIN. Had some drinks at Fridays, she's rubbing my leg under the table the whole time, and after were walking out to the parking lot and she is trying to make out with me and asking me to come back to THEIR hotel room. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned......I turned her down because I had a new g/f at the time. The look on her face as she stormed away was PRICELESS. I think I called out to her as she was walking away "Call me sometime" haha.

Point is, THIS is the kind of chick you have to avoid. It should have been obvious to me when she wouldn't allow me to isolate her that I had no chance, but I hung in there. Maybe if I could have gotten her to blow me in the bathroom it might have been a different story, but......

 

[Interceptor]

Huge chunks of information there, Rollo. Thanks, man.

Really well written and clear.
You are seriously raising consciousness on this forum, RT.
Thanks again.

 

[STR8UP]

The argument had been presented earlier that desire can be controlled, that we're the gate keepers of our desire, and I'd agree with this to a point, but at some point desire will trump conviction, even against our best efforts. However the issue isn't control, but rather what is mitigating desire, and does this mitigation imply that the desire is less than genuine? And if it is less than genuine, what other agenda is motivating the behavior?

Excellent excellent post Rollo. And this paragraph sums it up......we need to be aware of getting into situations that are no win on our end. It's very easy for a chick to come out with pretty much everything she wants from the interaction (attention and validation), leaving us high and dry in the process, all under the guise of what amount to a "socially acceptable ruse"

For example, the common ASD techniques of delaying sex for reasons of comfort or over concerns of sexual reputation automatically question desire because it establishes a frame where the man must qualify,"prove" himself meritous of her intimacy.

Very much in agreement with you, however with certain women, if not only in certain situations with a particular woman, the ASD is real and it's gonna be a roadblock that you have to overcome. If it's a speedbump....no big deal. If you gotta climb a mountain, that's a different story.

Another interesting subject would be how to reframe the situation after you actually have intercourse. I don't think it is necessary with a high interest chick, as her ASD was simply a formality and not so much a manipulation. But for someone who DOES get past the ASD where the desire wasn't necessarily through the roof, it would be very important to create desire and remove the power she thinks she has over you by putting conditions on the sex.

As much as I think I have it all figured out, I learn a ton from threads like this. Thanks for the input.

 

[jonwon]

Some great points in here.

STR8UP, when I suggested you change the frame this is what I was implying:

When she comes over or gets naked in your bed, you shift the frame, she is no longer the one with the ASD, infact you ARE.

What you do is send her mixed signals, much like she is doing with you.

When she goes to kiss you, kiss her back make it has passionate has possible, but DO NOT PUSH for sex, yeh you heard it right, most guys will suggest you keep pushing her for it.

Well i advise against it, infact keep going, make it has passionate has possible, but make it so she is doing the chasing, hard to do when your motive is to fuc* her brains out and it takes a strong man to do it right.

What you dont want to be doing is rolling over and ignoring her, what you need to do is balance between giving her just enough for her to BEG for more and lack of attention validation, trust me women want to be wanted.

This women seems to have more then enough out of getting 'off' or bringing herself 'off' on the little she offers back.

fuc8 THAT!

Next time, you need to shift the frame totally.

Don’t give her the satisfaction of flicking one off, give her a tit bit of what she COULD get, but it is UPTO her to push MORE FOR IT.

The way you have to make this work is to never PUSH her for sex, if she pushes you once YOU do NOT give in then take charge, what you do is offer her a little but with reluctance, like a game where by your teasing the BITC* and if she plays right you may give her what she wants, IF SHE PLAYS RIGHT.

Do not finger her, do not massage her breasts, when you kiss her, you play with her hair has you passionately kiss her, you do this till she pushes for more, if she does not, DONT GIVE in and try to force it to the next level, simple lay on your back and wait for her to act.

Let her come to you, but dont turn away, this shows your BOTHERED by the sex, when in truth the correct frame is 'i will give you sex if you do the right things, if not your loss bitc*' hence reversing the frame.

It seems you will be hard pushed to get it from this chick anyway.

What i suggest will do a few things.

1: she makes the moves, hence your not at fault, i.e she has no conceived ASD since she does not need one as she is the horney one (or your playing that way).

2: She may think your not interested in her for just sex, hence anti slut defence destroyed.

3: If she does not push for more, then i think you know she is probably not arsed.

The method above can be used rather effectively for ASD or women with an agenda, if it does not work, you can turn over 'after giving her a chance' then you can try it your way by pushing her the next time, or later in the night when you know the method is not working.

I do find 8/10 times though if switch the frame to women like this, they will normally be riding your coc* till the break of dawn, not all but then again the ones that don’t put out usually ARE AW and are more then happy to wake up 'happy' knowing your going to have blue balls over wanting to fuc* them all night.

the last thing I would be doing is rewarding this bitc*, no offence ment, with more attention and validation in terms of pushing for sex, the tables need to be turned and imo the sooner the better.

Women love sex too, don’t let them tell you otherwise, there normally full of shi* anyway.

Btw you can allow her to suc* on your coc* but this comes after she implies she would love to ‘enjoy herself (has one women put it to me recently)’.

 

[DavenJuan]

originally posted by JonWon
What you dont want to be doing is rolling over and ignoring her, what you need to do is balance between giving her just enough for her to BEG for more and lack of attention validation, trust me women want to be wanted

i cant believe that im agreeing with you on this one jonwon, but i agree 100 percent.

 

[STR8UP]

But my point is you cannot conclude without perfect information that a woman's ASD is because she doesn't have sufficent attraction, desire, or interest (basically likes you enough) in you when you been together on less than 4 occassions or so.

That's why it's so important to try to determine her motives. If you are only interested in sex, you might have a different game plan than if you see her as a possible relationship candidate.

See my read on this, is this girl is making Str8up wait for sex, not making him wait and no sex. Big difference, and I don't see anything wrong with waiting a litle while for something that's pretty likely to happen.

EXACTLY!

I would be honest with you if I thought there was a chance that she WOULDN'T give it up.

My observation and interpretation of things thus far has been that she is simply going through the motions of the formality that she has established. She has said numerous times that "it isn't that I won't have sex with you", basically saying "I know you think I'm immature for doing this, but if you just stick it out we WILL have sex once my little checklist has been completed". In other words, she just needs "documentation for the file".

And I don't think the fact she fooled around a little so far is worse than if she didn't. I mean if she thinks she's going to have sex with him at a later date, I wouldn't expect her to just act like a prude then one day tear her clothes off and go wild. There's going to be a natural progression.

Very good point.

Like I said, the impression that I get is that she IS a very sexual woman. Maybe even moreso in that she has been repressed her entire life by society and her religion. I honestly think that when she's "ready", I'm gonna tear that pu$$y up and she's gonna be screaming for more.

 

[STR8UP]

Right on, jonwon.

haha, that rhymes...

When I said "roll over" I wasn't implying that I do so in a pissed off manner. More like "Whoa lets slow things down then"

When I did it last time it was very effective. I figured out that I hit her "spot" with the nipples, gave one of them a good work over, then I rolled over and said we better go to sleep before it goes too far. She was literally begging me to service the twin, hehe.

At that point I had the ball. Of course I caved after awhile and she got the ball back. I just have to time it all correctly cause you're right, you gotta play their game.

 

[cordoncordon]

Honestly? I know we all like good discussion, but I think you are all over analyzing.

I mean she was down with some oral after what...2 dates? That's about par for the course these days.

Let it go, have fun.

 

[edger]

As, I said before, most women are master Plate Theorists, even within the confines of an LTR or marriage.

They're Master Plate Theorists because men don't play games or put them through bullsh*t. Their interaction with us is easy and simple. Women have it made in life(especially in their mate selection, as they can get any guy the want as long as they're attractive). And anyone who disagrees isn't looking at the real picture.

 

[##17]

Started seeing a new girl recently. 33 yrs old, born in the middle east, grew up in rural NC, traditional type girl who still lives with her parents. She is friends with the AW, and miraculously I didn't get c0ckblocked. Known her for about a year. Got her # awhile back but never really pursued anything with her, although there was mutual attraction.

Anyway.....

This is the girl who spent the night at my place last weekend after we went out on the town. The AW wanted to go home and her friend didn't, so I was kind of put in charge of her well being. Went back to my place after and did some kissing and petting, but that's about it (not for lack of effort on my part). She kept apologizing and justifying her ASD, but I have some interest beyond sex so I was willing to go along with it. It was my birthday and we were pretty tipsy, so somehow we ended up talking about our sexual pasts, and she told me she has been with a total of 5 guys in her life. True or not....who knows, but it would be consistent with her behavior.

So this chick came over last night for a "date" and stays at my place for the second time. Once again, half of the time we are together she spends justifying her ASD. "I gotta make sure we're after the same thing, you know. I don't want to just be another "flavor" to add to your list of what you've tried". and "In my country do you know what they do to girls who do this kind of stuff?"

So I'm like "yea yea" and go right back to kissing her.

It's late and we get into bed. She goes in to brush her teeth and I'm already laying in bed. Before she closes the door she says "Don't you dare fall asleep on me!"

She gets back a few minutes later and we start making out and stuff. I already knew that there was a 99% chance that she wasn't gonna give it all the way up, so I would just kiss her and rub her a bit and roll over like I was going to go to sleep. Each time I did she would come back over for more.

So I finally start playing with her t!ts and she starts to get all worked up but she still keeps pushing my hand away from her pu$$y.

She's getting very turned on by me sucking on her t!ts and after a few minutes she tells me she's gonna cvm. She starts rubbing her pu$$y and in a minute she's done.

Then she tells me that she wants to get me off, but the clothes are staying on and "there won't be anything oral". She asks me how I want her to do that, and I'm like "According to your rules? I don't know. What do you suggest" To which she replies "well there are other ways, you know". So I'm trying to figure out what she's talking about, and I see she's still playing with her t!ts, squeezing them together. She then asks if i have any lotion, and tells me that she wants me to cvm on her t!ts.

Alright....whatever....she's got a nice set of "C's"....lets give it a shot.

Didn't work very well, even with me giving myself some "assistance". Too bad cause I would have loved to have taken aim and shot a little high, hehe

So this chick wouldn't let me stick my d!ck in her, and she wouldn't give me head, but she WOULD let me t!tty fukk her and spray my love juice her on her face.

She isn't having sex with me.....she's making me wait. Does that make her a good girl, even though I did *sexual* things with her? If I didn't see her again would she consider what we had to be "sex"? Would she count me in her "number"?

Is this what you consider to be a "good" girl? I'm very curious what you guys think.

Hey man, first of all, serious props. I love reading your adventures.

I don't see what is the point of your question. How is any of this going to find out if she is a good girl (e.g., faithful girlfriend material) or not?

That said, I have a rule of my own: No girl is going to touch my **** until she is naked and we are on top of each other.

 

[ketostix]

think maybe I should clarify my last post. I don't 'beleive' in ASD in the context that most PUAs/DJ seem to perceive it and certainly not in the way most AFCs do. I do not believe women are as worried about their "slut status" as most guys believe they are. Sexual reputation for women is no doubt important to a degree, but I think that the social contrivance of ASD in the way that men understand it is far more overblown than how women really experience it. Women are all too eager to reinforce this male perception because it serves their purpose as a whole. As I said before, the social mechanics of ASD make it unassailable and also bolster the "women-have-it-harder-than-men" victimhood that's served them well for centuries. However, in light of a majority of women's easily observable, contradictory behavior that occurs so often and under such obvious conditions it becomes predictable, I cannot think that ASD is considered anything more than the perfect tool to be used as fits a situation.

I agree ASD isn't so much how a woman actually feels herself being a "slut" as it is an image, not a "slut", she wants others to believe. Women are master illusionists. And I believe any image women want others to believe is a tool to her benefit for the most part. And she can feign ASD as pretext for low interest in a guy, no question. But all I was saying is sometimes a woman will have desire in you but won't go too far too soon beause she doesn't want the guy to think of her as easy, or in some case she might feel like she was easy because of her beliefs.

Let me also be clear in stating that I do not believe women have some grand scheme of manipulation in using ASD. It's become so ingrained in modern culture since well before the 20th century that it's part of both sexes upbringings and psychological gender understandings. My point is that ASD is now part of the "have it all" mentality women use to simultaneously play virtuous, chaste "good girl" but still have the prerogative to be independent, liberated and free "bad girl" as their conditions warrant. And again, I'm not raging against it or trying to say women ought not to do so - I'm certainly not going to change so concrete a conviction no matter how questionable. I'm saying be aware of it and plan accordingly as a man.

I agree and I think we're saying the same thing basically. Women do try to have things both ways. They are very subjective in how they interpret things.

Now then, I'm glad KETOSTIX brought up LMR, because ASD-as-tool is a fillibuster for LMR. The real question hidden amongst the interpretations is WHY is a woman using ASD? Why does she have LMR? The easy answer to why a woman wont have sex is that she's concerned with reputation and/or self-image. I say this is the easy answer because it's the one most guys are willing to accept since it's the one most commonly reinforced. I believe it's a mistake to stop at just this basic easy answer. Why esle would she have ASD or LMR in a given situation? Because she's protecting her options. As, I said before, most women are master Plate Theorists, even within the confines of an LTR or marriage. Women know what comes with sexual intimacy, the emotional price tag that accompanies it. If she has a better prospect open to her that seems in any way feasible, you will be fillibustered - even if it's just to see if it pans out.

I think when a woman has LMR she's trying to assert her value to the guy. So in a way it is about her reputation/ image to that specific guy. If she wasn't interested and thought she had other options she wouldn't likely put herself in a situation of isolation and being in a situation of impending sex.

Comfortabilty is another rationale that women use as a fillibuster. "I'm just not comfortable enough to have sex with you yet" is a fillibuster, why? Because inspired, passionate sex is by definition uncomfortable. There is discomfort in sexual anxiety, sexual tension and desire that needs release and gratification. The most common reason couples experience sexual dissonance after years of marriage is that they become too comfortable with each other; so much so that they take one another for granted.

And to that point, what do you say to the wife who only wants conditional sex? What do you say to the woman who's had sex with a guy previously who now will only jerk him off? The quick answer is that the desire has changed for her, but if this is the case, why would we view this differently from the woman we're trying to convince to have sex with us for the first time?

I would just simply say that it's two different things. Even if a woman has desire for a new guy she needs a certain amount of time before intercourse. Once she's given this time and decided she was "comfortable" she can't revert back before that point for the same cause. It would be for a different cause.

The square root of ASD/LMR (even 'buyers remorse') is desire - real, genune, inspired desire. The argument had been presented earlier that desire can be controlled, that we're the gate keepers of our desire, and I'd agree with this to a point, but at some point desire will trump conviction, even against our best efforts. However the issue isn't control, but rather what is mitigating desire, and does this mitigation imply that the desire is less than genuine? And if it is less than genuine, what other agenda is motivating the behavior?

The only real validation of desire is exemplified in behavior. Uncoerrced behavior is the only real proof of motivation. This is exactly why I'm not a huge fan of PUA techniques that circumvent ASD or LMR. The woman's behavior proves a less than optimal desire so any salesmanship on the part of a PUA/DJ becomes coerrsion at worst and negotiation at best. Once negotiation is introduced, all genuine desire becomes suspect.

Well I would say your model is more of how male desire works, an almost animalistic desire. I think women's desire is built upon the value of a male too. PUA/DJ tactics aren't so much coercion as much as convincing her of your value. Things like takeaways, freezeouts etc. aren't so much manipulation/coercion as they are conveying your value. You can't expect a guy to have value without him being proactive in conveying his value to the woman.

For example, the common ASD techniques of delaying sex for reasons of comfort or over concerns of sexual reputation automatically question desire because it establishes a frame where the man must qualify,"prove" himself meritous of her intimacy. Guys get put into the "friend-zone" for exactly the same reason, the only difference is that they are placed further away from that sexual goal than the guy who's stalled from ASD.

Well even if this is true that if at a given point of time a woman who shows ASD doesn't have enough desire, then not trying to increase her desire seems inefficient. If you're only going to pursue women who act on desire and never show any ASD then I think you're going to eliminate a lot of your options. I thought Spinning Plates was dealing with several women at a time not just having sex with whatever ones that have the most desire?

 

[STR8UP]

I don't see what is the point of your question. How is any of this going to find out if she is a good girl (e.g., faithful girlfriend material) or not?

There was no question.

This thread went way off track.

I wasn't looking for a dissection of ASD (although it turned this into a great thread) I was looking for everyone to chime in to illustrate that this good girl vs. slvt thing as some guys see it is only an illusion.

 

[STR8UP]

Well even if this is true that if at a given point of time a woman who shows ASD doesn't have enough desire, then not trying to increase her desire seems inefficient. If you're only going to pursue women who act on desire and never show any ASD then I think you're going to eliminate a lot of your options. I thought Spinning Plates was dealing with several women at a time not just having sex with whatever ones that have the most desire?

So how does everyone feel about an ALLOWANCE for culture or religion?

Like I said, I usually don't get this kind of resistance. But when I found out where she was born and her religious beliefs, I think I was a little more understanding of where she was coming from.

Incidentally, any doubt I had as to her interest level is pretty much gone. Talked to her on the phone tonight and she kept asking about getting together this weekend, and even asked me on a date for Thanksgiving weekend. Gotta love it when they make it easy