Would you consider her a "good" girl?

[STR8UP]

Yeah, she wants to f*ck but has moral hang-ups about it. Just like high school kids who promise to be "celibate" before God and resort to anal as a result.

Oh....damn...you should've tried for anal!

It's just a dumb hang-up she has. I'd say if you don't have another date for the ngiht, let her jack you off and f*ck her t!ts until she either gives it up properly or she gets on your nerves and you have to cut her loose. Even a girl jacking you off is better than you jacking yourself off.

I wish I had angled for the t!tty-f*ck with the last girl I was with...she had some nice big fakies.

Wasn't really trying to take this thread in this direction (scrutinizing her actions) but that seems to be the way it's going, so I'll go with the flow....

I see the same thing you do.

Wants to fukk but has to go through her rituals to make it justifiable so she can sleep at night.

 

[STR8UP]

It seems in this situation, could it be possible your IL is high so you cant see a possible AW in your midst?

Not at all. I know an AW when I see one and this is definitely NOT an AW....at least not with me.

This girl seem like validation, too much validation to me, she even has the nerve to call the shots of what goes and what does not whilst being semi naked in your bed, too much like blue balls for me man.

You guys haven't encountered ASD before? This one seems to have a more extreme case, but I don't see it worth writing a woman off just because she has to sort some issues out before she acts on her desires....

I prefer a girl to say no before she jumps into my bed, gets aroused with me stroking her tits 'then' the 'biggie' brings herself 'off'. I would be a tiny bit insulted right there, then to me she simply drags it on further and says 'she wants to get you off', by you wanking over her tits, this girl is definatly sure of herself. Me i would have probably said 'naa dont worry i'll put some porn on instead and kick you the fuc* out'!

You have a great point.

Perhaps my game isn't up to par enough to be that guy who has the ability to push the right buttons to get past the ASD?

Incidentally, and i know this is kind of a slap in the face as well, but after she couldn't get me off she offered to sleep on the couch. I really think she felt bad about it.

I would keep her on, but i would definatly start to shift the frame, after all sex is a reward for you both, lets not get into a situation where by you feel your almost begging for sex and getting blue ball syndrome and all she offers is a breast to console you, yep i have been here with a similier girl before, each time i thought i could get past first and second base, it never actually got there, until eventually i had enough and refused to give her to attention. (this thread reminds me of a girl i once dated for about 6days, dam did she **** tease to the max).

See that's what I like about this board. It helps you get a third person perspective on things.

I agree....the frame needs to be shifted.

I started to do so the other night, and was fully prepared to roll over and go to sleep, but I got sucked in and before you know it I was playing the game by her rules.

I don't want this to turn into a "you're not giving me pu$$y so I'm not gving you attention" kind of thing. And I'm certainly not gonna beg anyone for sex. There will be a turning point for this, and it won't be after she's satisfied her own urges half a dozen times.

Now a-days if i think there playing me like a fiddle, maybe if i have high IL, i may wait it out and see if it is a product of ***** shield, but if i find on the next time around she is clearly pushing for validation, you may as well flick one over the wrist over porn then keep feeding there Attention and Validation.

I agree with you, but I get zero indication that she is using me for attention. Her friend....yes. Her....not at all.

Anyway, things of this nature, one always wonders if what your initial ideas are spot on and she is infact concurent with her words, she really does think penetration = sex and all others simply is not.

If you really think about it, who DOES consider this to be sex? I do on a conscious level, but if I were to tell someone my "number" I wouldn't include any women I didn't stick my d!ck into, regardless of how far we went.

Part of the point of this thread was to illustrate that a lot of guys judge a woman based upon her sexual past, which is not a good overall indicator. If you do make the mistake of discussing it with her, even if she does tell you the truth about how many men she has had "penetration" with, what about the numerous encounters most of us have that don't result in all out sex?

Point is there are no good girls and bad girls, it's all shades of grey. And even the ones who lean toward the good end of the spectrum might have a lot more quasi sexual experience than you might think.

She has serious sexual hang-ups and feels penetrative sex is taboo but has no problems doing all other things.

I'm 99% sure this is it.

And although it isn't a good thing if taken to the extreme, I can respect a woman's POV when it comes to this stuff cause I know the kind of sh!t they get from all angles. Guys judge them, parents judge them, even other women judge them. As guys we take that for granted cause nobody gives a fukk what we do.....actually it's the opposite. We are praised for doing what men do.

All I can say is that it takes two to tango. For every guy who gets a pat on the back there is a girl who either conceals the truth or risks being chastised.

But one thing that bothers me, is her AW mate, i usually find when mates come in; like attracts like and if there best mates, i would suspect they have alot in commen. The one your with just hides it better, not found an AW yet who does not have a mate who is similier, unless the mate is fat or ugly, AW usually have a ugly/fat mate so they get all the male attention, if she is hot, it is more often then not a partner in crime.

They have similar personalities, but what I know of the two the AW is way more insecure deep down, hence the need for attention. She's like a deflated balloon when she doesn't get it, whereas her friend I don't take to be that way at all. Like I said, from the third party info that I gathered she seems to require a lot less outside stimuli to keep her happy.

 

[squirrels]

You know what else you could get her to do...just let her get on top and slide the lips of her cooter up and down your wang. No penetration, but it still feels good. Maybe she'll get excited enough at being "that close" that she'll let you put it in.

Get her so turned on that she "makes a mistake".

 

[KontrollerX]

LMAO squirrels has the best idea.

I think it just might work.

Give that idea a shot Str8up.

 

[STR8UP]

Im gonna give her one more chance next weekend. If I hit a roadblock this time, next time we go out she will have the choice of either

A) Not staying over

B) Staying over but staying on her side of the bed (or the couch)

C) Giving it up

Actually I would love to go with B, cause i know she wants it every bit as bad as I do if not more. I know I can restrain myself, no problem. She'll be the one begging for crumbs.

 

[DavenJuan]

Originally posted by STR8UP
If she has truly only been with 5 guys in 33 years, that's not many. But how many guys have t!tty fukked her? I know better than to even contemplate that, but some guys would choose not to even acknowledge the fact that she might not have had SEX with many men, but likely she has been SEXUAL with more than just the five.

To keep it simple...shes a good girl. Pending on what type of relationship you are looking to drag out of this.

1. she a sexual beast. She is comfortable with her sexual nature.
2. sometimes no matter how attracted i am to a girl, i tend to lose interest quicker the faster they put out.

it could be a million reasons why she didnt want to go through all the way...my personal opinion.. i like a girl who knows what she wants and isnt afraid to speak up and tell you

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

When a girl says "why don't you just give me a massage?" when you think you're going to get laid, it's a fillibuster.

When a girl says "I'm hungry, lets get some late night pizza" after she's been boozing with you at 3am, it's a fillibuster.

When a girl says "can't we just cuddle on the couch instead?", it's a fillibuster.

When a girl tells you "there wont be any oral" it's a fillibuster.

This 33 y.o. girl is blatantly making you wait. A Prince doesn't wait because he knows he has plenty of other options. Any woman a Prince grants some of his valuable attention to should already know this and if she plays games like this the Prince moves on to one who does. You've already blown a load on her boobs; any sex you do have after this will always come with the pretense of negotiation and this previous "fillibuster" will call into doubt any genuine desire she might have. She didn't have sex with you STR8, you basically dry-humped like I used to do when I was 17. Why didn't she have sex with you right then and there? She's 33. She cannot be so naive as to think that you wouldn't want sex after getting into bed with a guy at his house. Why didn't she have sex with you? Because she didn't want to. The desire wasn't there. She felt obligated to get you off, but she didn't want to have sex with you. Any sex you do have after this incident will be the result of a negotiated desire, after a pleading of your case, and not bourne from real, spontaneous, chemical passion. You could've beat off to porn and had the same experience you did with her.

 

[edger]

33 yrs old, born in the middle east, grew up in rural NC, traditional type girl who still lives with her parents.

Ugh, still lives with her parents. You shouldn't give this girl the time of the day, what a loser.

I'm joking/being sarcastic of course, but it's funny, because most guys(if not all) would never diss a woman because she still lives with her parents(or a parent). Once again, this is a common thing in Europe and elsewhere around the globe. Only in Amorica, will these lame, stupid social stigmas exist, cause once again, women are conditioned to think certain ways about men. And who teaches them to think these ways? Men, a man's worst enemy.

 

[ketostix]

When a girl says "why don't you just give me a massage?" when you think you're going to get laid, it's a fillibuster.

When a girl says "I'm hungry, lets get some late night pizza" after she's been boozing with you at 3am, it's a fillibuster.

When a girl says "can't we just cuddle on the couch instead?", it's a fillibuster.

When a girl tells you "there wont be any oral" it's a fillibuster.

This 33 y.o. girl is blatantly making you wait. A Prince doesn't wait because he knows he has plenty of other options. Any woman a Prince grants some of his valuable attention to should already know this and if she plays games like this the Prince moves on to one who does. You've already blown a load on her boobs; any sex you do have after this will always come with the pretense of negotiation and this previous "fillibuster" will call into doubt any genuine desire she might have. She didn't have sex with you STR8, you basically dry-humped like I used to do when I was 17. Why didn't she have sex with you right then and there? She's 33. She cannot be so naive as to think that you wouldn't want sex after getting into bed with a guy at his house. Why didn't she have sex with you? Because she didn't want to. The desire wasn't there. She felt obligated to get you off, but she didn't want to have sex with you. Any sex you do have after this incident will be the result of a negotiated desire, after a pleading of your case, and not bourne from real, spontaneous, chemical passion. You could've beat off to porn and had the same experience you did with her.

I don't think you can always conclude that because a woman didn't have sex with you on a first or second "date", she didn't want to. You can want to do something but for any number of valid or invald reasons not do it at that time. More specifically, you can't conclude necessarily that this girl didn't want to have sex with Str8up because there was insufficient desire. People do have control over their wants or desires. I think it's totally pluasible that this girl has never had sex that soon with any other guy, or if she had it didn't workout and she's resolved to never do it again no matter what.

Conversely just because a girl has sex with you on the first encounter you can't always conclude she really had strong desire for you. ONS are proof of that.

I'm usually the last one to ever defend women but I'm kind of sensing a double standard or moreso a contradiction, not from so much you RT but in general..It's like some are saying if she doesn't have intercourse she's not giving up the sex, but if she does other things, she is having sex.

Also, just because a girl gives sex up on the first night is no guarantee she won't try to play power games later on. Actually it might even encourage her to if she felt it was rushed after the fact. Think of it as retroactive ASD. I've seen it many times.

 

[STR8UP]

This 33 y.o. girl is blatantly making you wait. A Prince doesn't wait because he knows he has plenty of other options. Any woman a Prince grants some of his valuable attention to should already know this and if she plays games like this the Prince moves on to one who does.

Just so I'm getting this clear.....what you are saying is that you should never wait for sex? It either happens on the first "date" or you move on? Only if she has displayed her willingness to submit to you on the first date should you consider a second or third?

I agree with the basic premise of what you are trying to say. But does it have a practical application in all cases? I think not.

I also agree with the idea that if a woman is going to turn you down for sex, it should be BEFORE she's in your bed in a g-string and a t-shirt. That borders on cruelty

But if there is a progression I don't see the sense in dropping a woman just because for whatever reason she doesn't give it up the first or second time you are with her. If it stalls after a few dates....yea, there's a problem. I won't put up with an ASD whether it is conditioning, religious, or whatever if it becomes excessive. At THAT point your rule becomes "iron".

You and I are both more on the open minded side when it comes to judging women, but most of the rest of the world thinks in terms of "good girls" vs. "hors" and "$luts". Women care about their image. They worry about what other people think of them. And they sometimes have mental hangups about sex. That's a fact that you can't dispute.

Now that I think about it the other lebanese chick I know is the same way from what I heard. Sure, she WANTS to party. But at the end of the day she has barriers that have to come down before she gives it up. They grew up being brainwashed 10x more than we do as Americans.

So are all women who have ANY sort of hangups about sex automatically disqualified? Or is it that as a DJ one should be able to break through all resistance?

You always speak against binary thinking, yet it seems that some of the rules you would have us take as the gospel are just that....they are fixed and non negotiable. They don't account for variables.

In this equation the variable is her conditioning, or whatever it is that is causing her to hold back. This "x" in the equation will vary from woman to woman. And it CAN vary by circumstance (which guy she is with), but not to the point where you should automatically disqualify her should you not be able to circumvent.

I know you have read The 48 Laws of Power. One of the things I like about that book is that it outlines the "laws" of power, but always accounts for a "reversal", which is necessary for most any rule to be most effective, or at least for you to be able to apply that particular rule most effectively.

You've already blown a load on her boobs; any sex you do have after this will always come with the pretense of negotiation and this previous "fillibuster" will call into doubt any genuine desire she might have.She didn't have sex with you STR8, you basically dry-humped like I used to do when I was 17.

Is it juvenile of her to withhold sex? Absolutely. I think it's ridiculous. You wanna fukk, you fukk. That's MY attitude. But I don't live in STR8UP's world.....I live in a world that thinks differently than i do.

Her (in)action is due to cultural and religious reasons. If you corner me and ask my opinion about either one, I see plenty of ridiculous social conventions and honestly i think most organized religion is a crock of sh!t, but like I said, I'm not living in MY world, I'm making the best of the world we ALL live in.

Why didn't she have sex with you right then and there? She's 33. She cannot be so naive as to think that you wouldn't want sex after getting into bed with a guy at his house. Why didn't she have sex with you? Because she didn't want to. The desire wasn't there.

There is no way that you can say with certainty that a woman who will sleep next to you but will not have sex with you immediately doesn't have the DESIRE to have sex. In a strictly animalistic sense (take away social and religious conditioning), you would be correct. But when you factor in the human element (constraints placed by society and religion) it changes the game.

Her "desire" is negated by her conditioning. If i were a different guy or if I had played it differently is it possible that her desire would have overcome her conditioning? Absolutely. But to next her just because I wasn't able to counteract her ASD? That's ridiculous! The only way it would be a reasonable response is if we are talking about a chick who WILL NOT give it up within a "reasonable" amount of time, and we aren't there yet. Two dates isn't unreasonable in my book, but i suppose time will tell.......

Any sex you do have after this incident will be the result of a negotiated desire, after a pleading of your case, and not bourne from real, spontaneous, chemical passion.

Once again, I respectfully disagree.

As I said, this hasn't yet fully played out so it is possible to say that it won't turn out this way, but the indications I am getting are that the desire is there, it is simply being stifled by conditioning. In other words, i think I can hit it in due time.

And once that happens the power dynamic shifts. What she has "withheld" she has now relinquished. Ball is in my court. Today she is saying "I need to make sure that you're not just using me for sex". Once she gives it up she has lost her leverage.

 

[ketostix]

Her "desire" is negated by her conditioning. If i were a different guy or if I had played it differently is it possible that her desire would have overcome her conditioning? Absolutely. But to next her just because I wasn't able to counteract her ASD? That's ridiculous! The only way it would be a reasonable response is if we are talking about a chick who WILL NOT give it up within a "reasonable" amount of time, and we aren't there yet. Two dates isn't unreasonable in my book, but i suppose time will tell.......

I think herein lies the crux of the issue. While it's possible a different guy could of caused her desires to override her conditioning, it doesn't mean it's for certain. What I'm saying is she probably showed ASD to every other guy too, and getting past her ASD quicker than she's ready for could result in buyer's remorse. ASD doesn't always mean insufficient desire, is caused because of the conditioning. Desire can never make this conditioning totally disappear. That's to say, if she bypasses her conditioning even from desire, she may still have buyer's remorse. The only thing that can bypass her conditioning without consequence, isn't desire alone, but desire plus a different set of conditions, such as, a third or fourth date.

So the question becomes do you want to deal with this conditioning or not. I'd say I would for a short time. I also think ASD isn't always a bad thing. It's what separates the "bad" girls from the "good" girls, i.e. how many sex partners she's had.

 

[STR8UP]

People do have control over their wants or desires. I think it's totally pluasible that this girl has never had sex that soon with any other guy, or if she had it didn't workout and she's resolved to never do it again no matter what.

Here's an interesting example of how fukked up religious conditioning is.

One of my employees comes from a VERY religious Dominican family. Great kid. He would do anything for anyone. Don't know what i would do without him.

But I honestly feel sorry for him. He has been SOOO brainwashed by his religious family that I don't think he has even taken 5 minutes to question what he has been told all of his life; he simply follows blindly.

Actually, he doesn't follow blindly, because he picks and chooses which of the commandments he follows. But the underlying thought is always there. the thought that half the stuff he does is wrong or immoral or whatever.

Six months ago he SWORE up and down that he would never step foot into a t!tty bar. All it took was to get him in one on the pretense of business, and now you can't keep him away from them.

So obviously his convictions are always subject to outside influence. But get this....he's 24 yrs old and doesn't drink. He has tried it on a couple of occasions but he has never been even buzzed. He says it isn't that he doesn't LIKE it, but he feels like it's a huge sin to drink booze.

So here he is sitting at the bar staring up at ass and t!tties jiggling in his face drinking cranberry juice.

Conversely just because a girl has sex with you on the first encounter you can't always conclude she really had strong desire for you. ONS are proof of that.

Exactly.

Yes, we always have to watch a woman's actions, not listen to her words, but you can't follow that to a "t" or it will sometimes lead you in the wrong direction.

If you conclude that a woman who won't have sex with you on the first date doesn't have the desire to do so, you have to also conclude that a woman who DOES sleep with you on the first date has genuine desire and/or interest.

This chick I was fukking a couple of months ago was living proof.

I didn't have to lift a finger to get her butt ass naked. We ended hanging out one night with a group of friends, nothing even close to being a date, and by the end of the night everyone left but the two of us. She was like "What do you wanna do now?" I said "I dunno, you have any ideas?" She says "Well........we can go back to my place if you want....."

So an hour later I'm sitting on her couch and she's jumping on top of me. I fukked her that night and the next morning, and I have never felt more like a human dildo. Should have been an indicator of what would happen in the future, cause she kept saying how much she was into me and then would cancel plans and sh!t.

Point is, she fukked ME even BEFORE we had gone out one on one, but she wasn't even into it. Her desire was lukewarm at best. you just can't say because she fukks you she really wants it, or because she DOESN'T fukk you that she doesn't WANT to.

 

[STR8UP]

But a 33 yearold women... just the fact that you are on this forum makes you more qualified than that. If you need some help, join me down here in mexico

Trust me.....your posts are an inspiration, and I just might end up doing that one day in the not too distant future.

And I know, 33 yr old women generally aren't my thing, but the same way I never say never with VERY young women (under 20-21) I never rule out anything with older ones either. This chick is no 9 or 10, but she is sexy and exotic. And did I mention she has a great set of knockers?

Oh yea, and despite the withholding issue, I feel strong sexual chemistry and I really think she's gonna be adventurous in the sack, if it ever happens. Knock on wood....hehe

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I realize what I'm about to type here is going to ruffle a lot of feathers, but I do not believe in ASD. I know that's going to go against everything any PUA has ever established about overcoming ASD, but let me clarify a few things about this first. I'm not saying that women aren't the filters of their own sexuality. I'm not proposing that women don't feel some sense of personal accountability for their own sexual decision. Obviously it is in their own biological interest to be cautious with whom they'd mate with. What I am saying is that ASD is a feminine social contrivance.

Anti-Slut Defense is exactly that, a "defense." It is an automatic moral high ground that any and every woman has the ability to claim. It is the feminine prerogative in it's rawest form, but it is a social contrivance and possibly the single most useful tool a woman has next to her sexuality. It is one thing for a woman to be sexual, arousing, erotic and enticing, but it is quite another thing for her to be sexually available. This is the secret of feminine seduction; the prospect of sexual pleasure without the promise of sexual availability. And the tool - the social mechanism, used to effect this is contrivance of feminine virtue. There had to be a sociological schema creeated - a set of common rules backed by an unassailable moral stance - that would allow a woman to operate, and practice her methods of sexual selection without the worry of the social accountability that her otherwise fickle and seemingly indecisive behaviors would draw attention to. Thus the importance of feminine virtue comes into the popular consciousness.

Now a woman can operate unhindered in her sexual selection. As much as people want to take issue with me about Plate Theory, women have been employing it for centruies and the tool that is ASD has only made them better at it. In today's western culture (and a lot of others as well) she's got the best of the new rules and the old. A woman can be as flirtatious as she wants, be as arousing and flighty as she pleases and still enjoys the female prerogative to "change her mind", to be concerned with her virtue. And we, as properly conditioned chumps, nod our heads in agreeance with the girl who just won the wet t-shirt contest when she says she wont sleep with us because she's "not THAT kind of girl."

Do the girls in Panama City on spring break flashing their t!ts, making out with random guys (and other girls) on camera and hooking up seem worried about being perceived as a slut? Do the women at a club on a GNO really seem concerned with what their other girlfirends think of their sexual exploits? If anything they're encouraged to be more sexually adventurous by their peers. Does the bride-to-be at her bachelorette party worry about coming off as a slut in Las Vegas? Women will do what they want to do and work out the rationalizations for it later, because they know they'll be excused for their indescretions by no other means than feminine virtue.

As I'm fond of saying, the girl ƒucking the hot guy she met an hour earlier in the foam cannon party on spring break in Cancun is the same girl who'll tell you she's "just not comfortable enough to have sex with you yet" after you've spooned her for 3 hours with a hardon in your bed. She gets away with it because she uses the ASD contrivance to fillibuster your sexual desire.

So, I'm not going to suggest that you NEXT a woman out of hand for a lack of IL or even desire. What I will advise is an awareness of how a woman applies Plate Theory and the tools with which she employs it. ASD is one of many tools in her toolbox, know when it's being used against you and weigh the costs of dealing with it against the rewards of actually banging her. When I was dating Mrs. Tomassi it took 3 dates to bed her, but never did she tell me, "not yet, I'm just not comfortable with you", never did she say "I want to get you off, but no oral" and never did I play cuddle b!tch and go home with blue balls. She never said "I'm making you wait for it." She had more respect for ME than that, not the other way around. When we had sex, we HAD sex. We didn't play games, I didn't put it half-way-in, we didn't dry-hump we had sex. I'm not trying to gloss my relationship with my wife here, but rather provide an example of how a mature, adult couple go about having sex.

Women are concerned with reputation, of course. Women do have sexual hang ups as a result of this or upringing too, but again, is the cost of dealing with this worth the reward of having sex with a woman with hang ups? Would your efforts be better spent with a new prospect in contrast to that perceived reward? People always think my blanket response is to NEXT a girl like the one you've described (and the AW before this too I should add), but I've been down the ASD-game playing path often enough in my past, and know so many others who've done so as well, to see that a zero-tolerance policy is simply more pragmatic. The problem isn't so much that she wasn't instantaneously sexual with you from the word go, but more that she's used the ASD contrivance to fillibuster you. Look carefully at what's working in her life now. What's her backgorund? Up to this point the only thing any of us here know is you snapped one off on her t!ts because she wouldn't go all the way. Is she a single mommie? Does she have other irons in the fire? She's only been with 5 guys (that she'll admit to) why? Because she's virtuously cautious or because she has the same sexual hang ups you described?

 

[Interceptor]

Fvcking great post as always, Rollo.
A lot of valueable info in that one.


My feeling is that ASD is about keeping an impression ofher in your head, so to speak.
The old notion of "You won't respect me in the morning." is firmly entrenched in many, many women's minds.


There are a lot of uses for the Tool known as ASD.
A lot of applications for one tool.

But, when it comes to Love, or the true deep, Femenine nature and nurturing quality of a woman, I believe a woman truly starts to turn on the "Protect that Heart" safety mechanism.
When we're talkng about receiving that deepest"Warmth" of a woman, you're asking a lot of her. And she knows it.
And she is not going to give THAT up, if she doesn't trust in you.

She will have sex with you ( Seduction is about "being there" in the first place, but the rest is navigating "resistance". Knowing how to "play" with her.) .
But , that "warmth"? Buddy, make sure you're sincere, and don't be another one of the many "*******s" she's been with.
(fguratively speaking. Not adderssing anyone in particular)
I believe the old rule of Prostitutes having a policy of "No Kissing", is a sign of that part of women's psyche make up.

Intimacy, as in Sexual intimacy is a form of exchange, a currency.


But emotional intimacy?

That's very deep, dangerous territory , my friends.

Hint: Learn from Women.
Choose Wisely.

"Protect That Heart."

 

[ThunderMaverick]

I think Rollo is correct as well. I honestly don't believe in ASD as well. Out of all the girls I've been with I've had ONE who gave me an ASD. When I told her this wasn't working she threw a fit and got overly emotional. She gave and pulled away to the point where I felt like a little dog getting small treats thrown at him whenever he did what the master said.

On the other hand I've had a couple of church girls who were horny as hell. One would always talk about Jesus and how important chastity was, but the next day she would be grinding on my **** whispering in my ear "I know you have a girlfriend but I don't feel bad". I made out with another girl I met at church within an hour of talking to her. The electricity was there.


Just because they're afraid the world will see them as "sluts", doesn't mean it stops them from acting like "sluts". If there is a carnal attraction there's no debating it. I honestly don't think she was that attracted to you.

Rollo, also from what I read in the post he didn't nut on her tits. She didn't get him off.

 

[Tazman]

I have to say Rollo seems to be on the money. The thing that sticks out the most to me is the fact that she's 33. I would give a little more leeway if she was a young inexperienced girl but at 33 she knows exactly what she's doing and has already taken the frame. Have you ever come across a woman around this age that said she wasn't ready for sex, but was comfortable enough to jerk you off? I don't see "good" girl I see "manipulative" girl. Meaning your interests are not near the top of her list of priorities.

 

[STR8UP]

I realize what I'm about to type here is going to ruffle a lot of feathers, but I do not believe in ASD.......What I am saying is that ASD is a feminine social contrivance.

You don't believe in it as in you don't agree with it then, correct?

It is the feminine prerogative in it's rawest form, but it is a social contrivance and possibly the single most useful tool a woman has next to her sexuality.

Exactly. She can use her sexuality to attract a man, then shut it off with her ASD. That's what a woman who is USING you for attention does.

But it's a different story when she has genuine interest. This one DOES have genuine interest. It is evident in her actions such as wanting to spend a lot of time with me. Last weekend when she stayed over on Saturday night she was already asking my plans for the next day cause she wanted to get together again after she finished work.

It's also evident in her words, the kind of words that you can actually believe when they come out of a woman's mouth, such as talking about "us" in a future context. "So next Sunday were gonna go to xxxxx?"

She also asks a bazillion questions about my life, my family, whether or not I have kids, a g/f, al kinds of stuff.

Only chicks that are interested do and say that kind of stuff.

As I'm fond of saying, the girl ƒucking the hot guy she met an hour earlier in the foam cannon party on spring break in Cancun is the same girl who'll tell you she's "just not comfortable enough to have sex with you yet" after you've spooned her for 3 hours with a hardon in your bed. She gets away with it because she uses the ASD contrivance to fillibuster your sexual desire.

True. ALL women have the capability of being a "slvt".

But let me share a little story.

Awhile back I was out with some lady friends. One of them was a virgin until she was 25, she is now 30. Not a "10" but definitely not ugly....not sure why she didn't lose it until she was 25, but anyway, this girl ended up meeting a guy that night and he took her across the street and got a hotel room and fukked her.

That night, she was the "slvt".

But the interesting thing is that I guess this guy tried to exchange numbers with her in the morning, and she basically said "It is what it is, I don't want to see you any more".

This guy was simply in the right place at the right time and he got a free piece of ass. The night before or the night after that I would be willing to bet that there isn't a man on earth that could have gotten in her pants. Sometimes it's just luck.

She didn't fukk this guy because she liked him, she most likely did it on a whim to see what it was like.

So lets say I met this girl the night after her ONS. She might REALLY like me, but the day before she had gotten that ONS thing out of her system. There's no way she's fukking me, no matter how much she likes me.

What I am getting at is that it isn't always your pickup skills or her level of attraction that determines when she will fukk. There are other factors involved. And to disqualify a woman simply because she exercises her ASD isn't the solution to the problem in many cases.

So, I'm not going to suggest that you NEXT a woman out of hand for a lack of IL or even desire. What I will advise is an awareness of how a woman applies Plate Theory and the tools with which she employs it.

But that isn't what I gathered from your first post.....

ASD is one of many tools in her toolbox, know when it's being used against you and weigh the costs of dealing with it against the rewards of actually banging her.

Very very sound advice. But that's the grey area that isn't addressed in your rules.

When I was dating Mrs. Tomassi it took 3 dates to bed her, but never did she tell me, "not yet, I'm just not comfortable with you", never did she say "I want to get you off, but no oral" and never did I play cuddle b!tch and go home with blue balls. She never said "I'm making you wait for it." She had more respect for ME than that, not the other way around. When we had sex, we HAD sex. We didn't play games, I didn't put it half-way-in, we didn't dry-hump we had sex. I'm not trying to gloss my relationship with my wife here, but rather provide an example of how a mature, adult couple go about having sex.

So I am curious, just how did this go down? Did you attempt to have sex with her on the first or second date?

I'm not gonna justify this chick going 3/4 of the way. There's no excuse for that, other than her either being a selfish tease, or genuinely WANTING to have sex but adhering to her ASD. Either way it is a bit disrespectful, although i doubt she meant it to be.

Let me ask you this. If she would have given me head instead of a hand job would that have made her actions justifiable?

Women are concerned with reputation, of course. Women do have sexual hang ups as a result of this or upringing too, but again, is the cost of dealing with this worth the reward of having sex with a woman with hang ups?

It sounds as if you are assuming that her hangups go beyond the initial act of intercourse.

Would it not be a GOOD thing to have a woman who doesn't give it up easily, but when she DID give it up she turned out to be sexually uninhibited?

I could be completely wrong, but the vibe I got from this chick is that once the gates are open there won't be much holding her back.

Would your efforts be better spent with a new prospect in contrast to that perceived reward?

Although I'm used to getting sex a little bit easier than this, I don't look at it as wasting my time as long as it happens within a reasonable amount of time (3-4 dates) and as long as there is a progression, which there has been.

Look carefully at what's working in her life now. What's her backgorund? Up to this point the only thing any of us here know is you snapped one off on her t!ts because she wouldn't go all the way. Is she a single mommie? Does she have other irons in the fire? She's only been with 5 guys (that she'll admit to) why? Because she's virtuously cautious or because she has the same sexual hang ups you described?

33yr old real estate agent, no kids, divorced after a 9 year marriage, comes from a traditional middle eastern family, close to her parents, grew up in a rural area here in the US, doesn't seem to be dating other people....that's about all I know at this point.

 

[STR8UP]

Str8up have you told this chick that you intend to **** her yet? Like actually said it to her "Im gonna fvck you next time I see you!".

I haven't said it to her, but she has basically said it to me. Not "I'm gonna fukk you next time I see you" but something more to the effect of what I interpreted as "I'm not saving myself for marriage, so don't worry. I just need to go through my pre-sex ritual so I can look at myself in the mirror the next day".

 

[MatureDJ]

I don't have a problem with this behavior. Even with birth control, it is possible for a woman to get pregnant, and single mommyhood is a very bad thing - as well as being the part of the wrong woman's life for 18-3/4 years.

As I far I am concerned, up to a point, so long as a woman got me to ejaculate, I would be sexually satisfied (although I would want to ejaculate outside of my clothes.) I really prefer to only have full sex with a woman that I would not mind knocking up.