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Why do you think dudes puss out on the pre-nup agreement?

RickTheToad

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Why do you think dudes puss out on the pre-nup agreement? Apparently, most dudes cave. If she says no, why not just say fine, then we're not getting married. She has more to lose then him.
 

The Duke

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Because he is afraid to lose her. Because he doesn't want to deal with the anger and backlash that comes with it.

I haven't fought the prenup battle but I've had a few other issues involving personal assets and the female trying to gain legal access.

One ended our long term relationship because I wouldn't put her name on my house. She claimed she wanted "security". So I told her I would will it to her, that wasn't good enough either.

The other got very angry when I wouldn't put her name on the deed to a large piece of property and instead made her a percentage based business partner instead. It caused some disconnect but she didn't leave. I was willing to take that risk.

An exwife hired a lawyer to come after me for the cash I collected after cashing in a very large amount of savings bonds. That cash is treated as a gift and no one other than the names on the bonds has any right to it even tho it was rolled into cash.

Takes more work to make money and have financial security than to find another woman. Also more likely to lose financially with a woman when she gets mad and leaves.

How it's done in the business world isnt what they consider fair. I'd prefer to play fair, it's just that they don't.

Treat it like you would a business or keep them out of it as much as possible. I definitely don't recommend marriage. I'd never make a 50-50 business deal with someone that didn't bring 50% to the table, but that's how the law works with women and marriage.

If they don't like it and leave, well they showed you their cards and you saved yourself a lot of trouble down the road.

You can avoid prenups by rolling assets into a trust in someone else's name. She won't be able to get to you.
 

threeforfree

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The vows are “til death do you part.” A prenup to a woman who is serious about that is little more than a silly waste of $800 or so. If they balk at that, it’s simply because they want the option to end it before that and profit from it. Stay with the guy for his whole life, and you get ALL of it, not half.
 

Stoic

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The reality is every marriage has a prenup. If you do not create one on your own terms, your state government has a prenup on their terms.
 

SW15

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he is afraid to lose her....he doesn't want to deal with the anger and backlash that comes with it.
This is exactly it. Let's consider the typical guy between ages 25-35 getting married for the first time.

This typical 25-35 year old male has lived in scarcity mode his entire dating life. Yes, he got a long term girlfriend. He might have had a few others before his current fiancé. Getting a girlfriend was an effort for him. If she leaves, he'll have multiple sexless months.

The typical 25-35 year old male marrying a similarly aged woman is more likely than not to get divorced from that woman during the next 20-25 years. There's under a 50% chance that marriage lasts until the 25th anniversary.

He needs a prenup if he has any assets or expects to get any assets during the next 10, 20, or 25 years.

The vows are “til death do you part.”
Most people don't take those vows literally or seriously.
 
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Stoic

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He needs a prenup if he has any assets or expects to get any assets during the next 10, 20, or 25 years.
Agree with what you said. But, is that true that you can address future assets in a prenup. I thought it was just premarriage assets.
 

SW15

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But, is that true that you can address future assets in a prenup.

.

He needs a prenup

 

RangerMIke

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If you are American and what State you live in a pre-nup agreement can be mostly useless. In most states the agreement has to have limits and VERY detailed. A pre-nup agreement will not keep you out of family court... your previous spouse can still challenge the agreement... and often times judges rule in favor of the woman.

If you want an iron clad agreement you are going to have to pay a GOOD lawyer that knows what they are doing at least 10K (likely double that), since at a minimum a week's worth of work to pull it together and that assumes you declare ALL your assets you want to protect and you go in knowing EXACTLY what you are doing. Any ambiguity will take more time and be more costly.

If your pre-nup says something like "What is mine is mine: yours is yours... and if the marriage ends we take our stuff and go separate ways." Well that isn't worth the paper it is written on. Problems with that is that you have not SPECIFICALLY identified what is yours... you can not have an open-ended agreement with no time limits. You have to define if any assets you have is growing in value you keep the growth. In most cases... say you have a mutual fund worth $300K, if you put any more money into that fund while you are married, or move that mutual fund to another account, it then becomes a joint asset.

I had a friend that had a pre-nup. When he married he had his own house, and all his investments were with a financial advisor. His spouse, after they were married, sold his home (which he owned outright), and bought a new one. Moved his assets to another FA firm (from Edward Jones to Northwestern Mutual). He had a pre-nup... but because he sold his house and bought a new one after he was married, the equity in his own house became community property. When he moved his investments to a new company, those became community property. After 18 months of marriage he ended up losing $500k to his former love goddess. On top of that he had to pay her legal bills, basically paying the lawyer that ripped his pre-nup to pieces. Not a bad payday for a former waitress for a year and a half of 'work'.
 

AureliusMaximus

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If you are American and what State you live in a pre-nup agreement can be mostly useless. In most states the agreement has to have limits and VERY detailed. A pre-nup agreement will not keep you out of family court... your previous spouse can still challenge the agreement... and often times judges rule in favor of the woman.

If you want an iron clad agreement you are going to have to pay a GOOD lawyer that knows what they are doing at least 10K (likely double that), since at a minimum a week's worth of work to pull it together and that assumes you declare ALL your assets you want to protect and you go in knowing EXACTLY what you are doing. Any ambiguity will take more time and be more costly.

If your pre-nup says something like "What is mine is mine: yours is yours... and if the marriage ends we take our stuff and go separate ways." Well that isn't worth the paper it is written on. Problems with that is that you have not SPECIFICALLY identified what is yours... you can not have an open-ended agreement with no time limits. You have to define if any assets you have is growing in value you keep the growth. In most cases... say you have a mutual fund worth $300K, if you put any more money into that fund while you are married, or move that mutual fund to another account, it then becomes a joint asset.

I had a friend that had a pre-nup. When he married he had his own house, and all his investments were with a financial advisor. His spouse, after they were married, sold his home (which he owned outright), and bought a new one. Moved his assets to another FA firm (from Edward Jones to Northwestern Mutual). He had a pre-nup... but because he sold his house and bought a new one after he was married, the equity in his own house became community property. When he moved his investments to a new company, those became community property. After 18 months of marriage he ended up losing $500k to his former love goddess. On top of that he had to pay her legal bills, basically paying the lawyer that ripped his pre-nup to pieces. Not a bad payday for a former waitress for a year and a half of 'work'.
Very IMPORTANT to do a postnuptial agreement AFTER the marriage has been done. Pre-nups are not enough...
 

Barrister

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Most women in today's age won't agree to a pre-nup unless there is a huge discrepancy in SMV in the man's favor. A HB 7+ will always have a better financial option to a man (unless he is a multi-millionare) who is demanding a pre-nup. So naturally, most men are not going to want to lose his bride-to-be by insisting on the prenup.
 

Divorced w 3

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If you are American and what State you live in a pre-nup agreement can be mostly useless. In most states the agreement has to have limits and VERY detailed. A pre-nup agreement will not keep you out of family court... your previous spouse can still challenge the agreement... and often times judges rule in favor of the woman.

If you want an iron clad agreement you are going to have to pay a GOOD lawyer that knows what they are doing at least 10K (likely double that), since at a minimum a week's worth of work to pull it together and that assumes you declare ALL your assets you want to protect and you go in knowing EXACTLY what you are doing. Any ambiguity will take more time and be more costly.

If your pre-nup says something like "What is mine is mine: yours is yours... and if the marriage ends we take our stuff and go separate ways." Well that isn't worth the paper it is written on. Problems with that is that you have not SPECIFICALLY identified what is yours... you can not have an open-ended agreement with no time limits. You have to define if any assets you have is growing in value you keep the growth. In most cases... say you have a mutual fund worth $300K, if you put any more money into that fund while you are married, or move that mutual fund to another account, it then becomes a joint asset.

I had a friend that had a pre-nup. When he married he had his own house, and all his investments were with a financial advisor. His spouse, after they were married, sold his home (which he owned outright), and bought a new one. Moved his assets to another FA firm (from Edward Jones to Northwestern Mutual). He had a pre-nup... but because he sold his house and bought a new one after he was married, the equity in his own house became community property. When he moved his investments to a new company, those became community property. After 18 months of marriage he ended up losing $500k to his former love goddess. On top of that he had to pay her legal bills, basically paying the lawyer that ripped his pre-nup to pieces. Not a bad payday for a former waitress for a year and a half of 'work'.
This isn’t accurate dude. Each state has their own laws on division of assets, as well as what constitutes marital property, support obligations and the like.

i don’t know what state you are in but as far as mine is concerned, as long as your friend had kept the pre-marital assets in his own name, and made sure that his wife had not updated his premarital property, what he did would not have commingled his funds.

it sounds to me, more so, that your friend didn’t follow the rules of the prenup. It also sounds to me like he had bad financial advice which is not surprising given the two shops you mentioned, which aren’t known for dealing with people with complicated wealth issues.
 
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Barrister

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This isn’t accurate dude. Each state has their own laws on division of assets, as well as what constitutes marital property, support obligations and the like.

i don’t know what state you are in but as far as New Jersey is concerned, as long as your friend had kept the pre-marital assets in his own name, and made sure that his wife had not updated his premarital property, what he did would not have commingled his funds.

it sounds to me, more so, that your friend didn’t follow the rules of the prenup. It also sounds to me like he had bad financial advice which is not surprising given the two shops you mentioned, which aren’t known for dealing with people with complicated wealth issues.
Prenups if done right can be ironclad -- agree 100%. But most husbands will inevitably fvck up over the course of years with his assets. Lawyers are great with comminglement arguments. There is probably an endless list of hypothetical arguments you can make for why something got commingled and no longer is covered under the prenup. A lot of times it will come down to who your judge is (old conservative man or new-age, woke woman for instance).
 
M

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Since we’re on the topic, can we discuss a rough guideline on creating a bulletproof prenup?
 

Divorced w 3

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Prenups if done right can be ironclad -- agree 100%. But most husbands will inevitably fvck up over the course of years with his assets. Lawyers are great with comminglement arguments. There is probably an endless list of hypothetical arguments you can make for why something got commingled and no longer is covered under the prenup. A lot of times it will come down to who your judge is (old conservative man or new-age, woke woman for instance).
I think you’re correct. It’s what is happening in mine now except I’m on the other side, and I convinced my ex wife to move out of our house that we owned with her parents and wire the proceeds into a place in joint name. Then I had her father get on the mortgage with me so that if he wanted to fvck me later on, that I had his credit by the balls which is helping a lot right now. I knew I was married to a nut with a father with deep pockets and I needed to put some financial balance back in because I knew when I filed that this was going to be long and ugly and I was right. In other words I played the 5 year game to protect my kids. I should have done more to pressure her but I couldn’t let our kids see their mother get taken out of the house by the police so I never hit her with the death blow. (Advice to everyone, always go 100%, id have done it in retrospect)

If I get remarried, which I may do because I think my kids deserve a nuclear family, I will have a prenup but I will also have assets secure both in trust and in LLC, both for my new wife but also to protect against my litigious ex. If you own property in a business you can have your lawyer sign and the title search won’t come back you personally. She will never know I am renting from myself.
 

SW15

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A lot of times it will come down to who your judge is (old conservative man or new-age, woke woman for instance).
And how your judge got there and your jurisdiction. Some areas have elected judges, others have appointed judges.

Most women in today's age won't agree to a pre-nup unless there is a huge discrepancy in SMV in the man's favor. A HB 7+ will always have a better financial option to a man (unless he is a multi-millionare) who is demanding a pre-nup. So naturally, most men are not going to want to lose his bride-to-be by insisting on the prenup.
It would be better for the man to lose the woman on account of demanding that she sign a prenup vs. getting 5-10 years out of a facade of married life and having her leave 5-10 years later with tangible asset prizes.

Most men's scarcity mentalities do not allow them to see it that way.

Men who are going to marry need a prenup.
 

MatureDJ

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Lack of options - although for the case of a man with kids from a different woman, there is bonafide reason for the pre-nup.
 

MatureDJ

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Since we’re on the topic, can we discuss a rough guideline on creating a bulletproof prenup?
Put your non-IRA assets in a trust. As for IRA assets, leave that account alone, and set up a new IRA at a completely different brokerage for any contributions after getting married. NOTE: In a community-property state that new IRA will be half hers no matter what.
 

MatureDJ

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This isn’t accurate dude. Each state has their own laws on division of assets, as well as what constitutes marital property, support obligations and the like.

i don’t know what state you are in but as far as mine is concerned, as long as your friend had kept the pre-marital assets in his own name, and made sure that his wife had not updated his premarital property, what he did would not have commingled his funds.

it sounds to me, more so, that your friend didn’t follow the rules of the prenup. It also sounds to me like he had bad financial advice which is not surprising given the two shops you mentioned, which aren’t known for dealing with people with complicated wealth issues.
Yes, this is basically the idea. The key is to not commingle.
 
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