Why Beta Bux can have the best of both worlds

[BeExcellent]

The experience is not the same @SW15 looking in from the outside as regards marriage. It will look one way but in actuality be very different when you are in the situation.

Kids are similar. I just roll my eyes and laugh at childless people who want to spout parenting advice because such people have zero frame of reference. They've never had to be responsible for a helpless human who relies on its parents for everything 24/7/365 for years. Childless individuals cannot relate. Observation ain't the same thing as 24/7/365 obligation. My husband means well on that front, but he has no frame of reference and hasn't known my kids all their lives. So yeah. He can stay in his lane on that subject. I have pointed that out to him, and I and the children's father make the parenting decisions (and fund the children where appropriate.)

Just like I don't tell him how to do his profession or do his sport. I have no business telling him how to do those things, the difference is that I KNOW I have no business telling him what to do or how to do it.

@NewJourney sounds like the kind of guy who would tell a female doctor how to practice medicine because he's visited a doctor and read an article or two on Google. Nevermind that the doctor has been to medical school, trained for years and passed licensure boards. But he's man so he must know better. Riiiiiiiggt.

Kind of like the 30K millionaires trying to tell an actual net worth millionnaire how to do things. It just makes that person look ridiculous to anyone with much sense. But you've seen millionnaires, so you must know, right?

Take your pot shots all you like. I find it funny. My life is doing just fine despite the silly insults (Grins).

By the way, the correct order is God, country, family (spouse, followed by kids) job, friends.

I do believe that a man needs to be solid within himself to lead well and be worthy of deference by a solid woman. He also needs to understand where his lane is. @New_Journey is not there yet.

That's fine, but perhaps focus on your own self awareness and growth rather than focusing on lapooning me.

Remember: Winners focus on winning. Losers focus on winners.

If you are focused on me you are not a winner by definition.

Read that again. Perhaps NJ would do well to shift focus from lapooning me, to winning in his own life.....

Food for thought

 

[Solomon]

Being Alpha has nothing to do ambition, or innovation or legacy.

He‘s changing the world by destroying millions of lives through his Doge program, without any care or regard for the working class people. What an Aloha man, I wish I was just like him, destroy lives and be proud of it.

The textbook definition of alpha male, according to Merriam-Webster is a dominant male. Let's not argue in bad faith, in regards to the context that I used. Who is more alpha in the tech industry than Elon Musk currently? According to the Cambridge dictionary, another definition for alpha male is a strong and successful man who likes to be in charge of others. I think it's safe to say that Elon running multiple successful billion-dollar companies that are innovative to society fits that definition to a tee.

I'm not here to argue about whether you like the guy or not, In regards to wasteful government spending, I'm not a fan of my tax dollars being used on orgies, drugs and going to corrupt greedy politicians, however that's another topic.

Emotional intelligence doesn’t hold up in Court.

Strawman argument

May not be Beta, but it’s dumb as hell. This is 2025, not the 1950s..

Guess what, in 2025, men still pay for women on first dates, would you call them Beta? or dumb as hell? even if you go for a cheap coffee date you're still paying. Most women are not going to come to your house on the first date. Men still pay for their girlfriends or their wives when it comes to housing, food, date nights etc. Your making arguments in bad faith here and continue to double down on it, which is very disingenuous.

They are. Beta men are working class men. Beta men make the world go around. They are ones who Simp and supplicate to women. They are the reason an Alpha man is not allowed to have many wives. They are called Beta for a reason.

​

If you go by the social hierarchy that Rudolphy Schenkel the creator, came up with Alpha, Sigma, Beta etc then you're absolutely wrong. I highly recommend you read his works.

You are contradicting yourself. Betas are not dominant but functional in society, THAT is the point of the Beta, To be functional in society for the Alpha.

At least the black pill knows this.

Once again, I’m using 'Alpha' and 'Beta' the way Rudolf Schenkel, the actual originator of the terms, defined them, not the dumbed-down, internet-bro versions red pill grifters recycle. If you want to twist the meaning to fit some recycled manosphere script, that’s on you but don’t pretend it’s a real argument. And as for the black pill? It's not the truth, it’s just a pity party for dudes too scared to take accountability. Victimhood isn’t masculinity, it’s just weakness dressed in edgy quotes.

 

[New_Journey]

@NewJourney sounds like the kind of guy who would tell a female doctor how to practice medicine because he's visited a doctor and read an article or two on Google.

Not only a female doctor, male doctors as well. Many doctors were rooting for the poison vaccine, and I didn't take it because you know what, the difference between you and I is that I don't make nobody an authoritarian figure to make decisions for me. I just don't take what people say as law, I have a brain, do my own research and decide for myself.

solid woman.

Silly rabid, women are a reflection of her man. Women are as good or as bad as men allow them to be.

lapooning me.

Idk what this means, honey bunny

If you are focused on me you are not a winner by definition.

Maybe I just wanna have a piece of that a$$, I mean, given your age you should be able to teach me a thing or two.

to winning in his own life.....

What's your definition of winning? Cause I'm at the top right now.

 

[The Duke]

@New_Journey there are several folks on this forum that are tired of your cheap shots and insults(lampooning) and you do it to anyone and everyone. You have a know it all attitude and think everyone else is beneath you. You show little respect to others, but think you deserve respect. You have little experience with life and its grossly obvious. People at the top don't behave like you.

Keep telling yourself lies. Keep acting like an arrogant azzhole. Keep taking those testosterone pills, its not going to fix whats broken inside of you. Your "Me Against the World" mantra you live by is just a cover up for whats not right inside.

You can do a lot better.

 

[SW15]

I have typically used Alpha/Sigma, Beta, and Omega as describers of males.

When I use the term beta male, it is a catch all for males in the Beta, Delta, Gamma tiers from this visual.

I think the way that I use the term beta male is more indicative of how it is commonly used.

Omega males are the worst of the worst males. This is one of the more common images on the internet used for an omega male.

in 2025, men still pay for women on first dates, would you call them Beta? or dumb as hell? even if you go for a cheap coffee date you're still paying. Most women are not going to come to your house on the first date. Men still pay for their girlfriends or their wives when it comes to housing, food, date nights etc. Your making arguments in bad faith here and continue to double down on it, which is very disingenuous.

It's quite difficult to pull off not paying for early stage dates. Men are still paying for most early stage dates regardless of whether they are alpha, sigma, or beta males.

The "whoever asks, pays" rule that is supposed to be more gender equal rarely ever works out that way. Men do most of the initiation and asking in early stages, so men are still absorbing that cost even if that idea is believed.

You're correct that men even pay for a lot of stuff in longer term relationships.

Men are also often indirectly paying for sex in buying a lot of stuff that helps get them laid, as Roosh points in his 2009 "True Cost Per Notch" article.

True Cost Per Notch

Men buy things like Rolexes, motorcycles, luxury brand clothes, and absorb higher rents/housing costs all to impress women and get laid.

 

[New_Journey]

You came to save the Damsel in Distress? I don't how the fvck I knew you were gonna comment, every time I said something about @BeExcellent you were there to defend her, its funny.

Did you like how I engaged her emotions that you had to come up and save her? Sorry Mario, your princess is in another castle.

your cheap shots and insults(lampooning)

I don't care what people think. Back it up with examples.

You have a know it all attitude and think everyone else is beneath you.

Again when did I say that? This is you projecting how you feel when interacting with me, its not my problem, its your own to figure out.

You show little respect to others, but think you deserve respect.

Respect is earned, and I give 0 fvck what any of the members whom I don't have a clue who the fvck they are give me " respect", I know what I am, I don't need that, its ingrained in me. However, in this post, you don't deserve any respect from me. When you accuse people of $hit, you back it up, otherwise, you are just another emotional woman.

People at the top don't behave like you.

People at the top don't go White Knighting others, do I make you feel unease by the way I talk?.. ohhh poor baby, and I thought in the beginning you were a guy who don't give a fvck what others think, but I was mistaken, you are just another guy Larping.

Keep telling yourself lies.

Like what?

Keep taking those testosterone pills

Injections

Your "Me Against the World" mantra you live by is just a cover up for whats not right inside.

Actually, it did. I had to realize everyone is fake, living in their own egos. So yes, Its me against the world.

I thought you rooted for men to be independent, to take on the world, to be okay by themselves, but now all the sudden you don't because I offend people with insults that you have not provided? You are just another Faker Duke.

 

[BeExcellent]

Respect is indeed earned @New_Journey. You deserve zero.

You are unworthy of respect from me because your writings reek of a petchulant child.

Duke is simply pointing out how your rantings and vitriol come across not only to me, but to him, and to any intelligent reader at large.

I have been here many years. I have been insulted many times, I am capable of engaging in respectful debate and I do not resort to hurling insults. I don't need to. That gracefulness has engendered a level of respect here. Not because I am female, not because I need rescuing, but rather because I set forth well reasoned view points. Some may agree, some may disagree. From that stance an enlightening discussion is enabled, and we all learn things.

That is not what you are doing.

You see the reason people insult others is because they cannot engage in debate, either because the argument is logically weak (as your is) and/or because they are emotionally enmeshed in a belief system that cannot with stand a difference in perspective (as evidenced by your content in this and other threads.)

The reason that I have remained here for so long is that I deeply respect the mission of this forum as a place to encourage male self awareness, self development, and the reality of the mating environment men deal with and how to thrive.

I have given you advice and encouragement in these areas, especially as regards financial things because I have already accomplished what you aspire to in that arena. The principles of success do not discriminate my friend. If you learn and apply them, they reward you, regardless of race, gender or creed.

That starts by not acting like a punk, something you have not yet mastered.

 

[SW15]

Respect is indeed earned

Yes, it is. I perceive we've earned respect from each other based on our interactions. While we have had differences of opinion, we have kept our interactions civil and respectful. You have tried to see the basis of my perspectives and I have tried to see the basis for yours.

I have been insulted many times, I am capable of engaging in respectful debate and I do not resort to hurling insults. I don't need to. That gracefulness has engendered a level of respect here. Not because I am female, not because I need rescuing, but rather because I set forth well reasoned view points. Some may agree, some may disagree. From that stance an enlightening discussion is enabled, and we all learn things.

It is a statement of fact that you've been insulted here.

I can only recall one time where you and I had a significant disagreement, but it was civil. You didn't hurl insults at me that time and I didn't do that to you. As you say, it was an enlightening discussion with no permanent bad feelings. That's the way to have a disagreement.

Duke is simply pointing out how your rantings and vitriol come across not only to me, but to him, and to any intelligent reader at large.

He wasn't white knighting and I'm not either. This is an accurate statement.

 

[BeExcellent]

Yes, it is. I perceive we've earned respect from each other based on our interactions. While we have had differences of opinion, we have kept our interactions civil and respectful. You have tried to see the basis of my perspectives and I have tried to see the basis for yours.



It is a statement of fact that you've been insulted here.

I can only recall one time where you and I had a significant disagreement, but it was civil. You didn't hurl insults at me that time and I didn't do that to you. As you say, it was an enlightening discussion with no permanent bad feelings. That's the way to have a disagreement.



He wasn't white knighting and I'm not either. This is an accurate statement.

Agreed and Thank you. I have come to respect you and many/most of the contributors here over time. I learn things here too and those things have given me insight that helps me in my own interactions with men and there are things I have shared over the years with my son, my ex husband and other men that I know. I try also to offer opinions based on my (very alpha/sigma) late father who understood interpersonal politics & dynamics but at the end of the day didn't care what others thought of him. But he treated others with respect and he was revered by people who knew him well.

Actually you came to mind when I wrote my response @SW15 because we have had differences of opinion at times but we have always had a mutually respectful tone & demeanor.

Differences of opinion can actually help people understand one another, provided of course that each perspective can accept that there are differing viewpoints that may not line up with our own. We can disagree and yet do so in a manner that seeks understanding rather than seeking to silence.....

 

[SW15]

We can disagree and yet do so in a manner that seeks understanding rather than seeking to silence.....

In the United States' culture (and likely the cultures of other Western nations), there are too many echo chambers and not enough productive discussions with differences of opinions. I've seen this increase over the last 30 years.

we have had differences of opinion at times but we have always had a mutually respectful tone & demeanor.

The culture at large needs more conversations with a respectful tone & demeanor.

Differences of opinion can actually help people understand one another, provided of course that each perspective can accept that there are differing viewpoints that may not line up with our own. We can disagree and yet do so in a manner that seeks understanding rather than seeking to silence.....

True

I try also to offer opinions based on my (very alpha/sigma) late father who understood interpersonal politics & dynamics but at the end of the day didn't care what others thought of him.

That's great that you had a father that would have been classified as alpha/sigma. There's no way that my father would be classified as alpha/sigma. He was a beta male. He said some very damaging things. He talked about the whole "happy wife, happy life" type mantra and talked about the importance of making my mom happy. Those were blue pill ideology statements. It's good he didn't spend more time with me given the things he said. My mom was spending the majority of time with me and raising me as a nice guy and far too beta to be successful with women.

In addition to the poor job that my parents did in preparing me for the mating environment in my teenage years and beyond, my parents also had a very unhealthy relational dynamic between them. Things ultimately ended in divorce for them. They should never have married and should have broken up long before they actually did. It was a terrible relationship to serve as example of a romantic relationship for me. Regardless of that experience, I don't believe that it impacts the idea that I am most known for promoting on this forum, which is the idea that romantic relationships have a shelf life.

I had a rough time initially adapting to the mating environment. I lost the first 2 years of high school on height issues (did not notice I was taller than the majority of my high school classmate females until late in sophomore year). The last 2 years of high school were rough due to my blue pill ideology not being well received by girls. In addition, this was topped off by multiple relocations during the K-12 years weakening my social circle.

When I went to college, I had been hoping that a change of scenery would improve my outcomes with women. It did not do so immediately. Part of the reason I selected the college that I selected was for its party atmosphere and the attractiveness of the female student body. It wasn't long before I started to consume seduction content online in the early 2000s. Doc Love and David DeAngelo were helpful as I started to learn more about women and what they actually respond to in mating scenarios. During that era, I did not discover Ross Jeffries or Mystery. I would have liked to have discovered Mystery sooner.

I am naturally introverted and my peak is sigma male. That's why I chose the lone wolf avatar for the sigma male. The progression from beta male to sigma male was a long and gradual process.

There's no way that I believe that Beta Bucks is a good model.

 

[BeExcellent]

In the United States' culture (and likely the cultures of other Western nations), there are too many echo chambers and not enough productive discussions with differences of opinions. I've seen this increase over the last 30 years.



The culture at large needs more conversations with a respectful tone & demeanor.



True



That's great that you had a father that would have been classified as alpha/sigma. There's no way that my father would be classified as alpha/sigma. He was a beta male. He said some very damaging things. He talked about the whole "happy wife, happy life" type mantra and talked about the importance of making my mom happy. Those were blue pill ideology statements. It's good he didn't spend more time with me given the things he said. My mom was spending the majority of time with me and raising me as a nice guy and far too beta to be successful with women.

In addition to the poor job that my parents did in preparing me for the mating environment in my teenage years and beyond, my parents also had a very unhealthy relational dynamic between them. Things ultimately ended in divorce for them. They should never have married and should have broken up long before they actually did. It was a terrible relationship to serve as example of a romantic relationship for me. Regardless of that experience, I don't believe that it impacts the idea that I am most known for promoting on this forum, which is the idea that romantic relationships have a shelf life.

I had a rough time initially adapting to the mating environment. I lost the first 2 years of high school on height issues (did not notice I was taller than the majority of my high school classmate females until late in sophomore year). The last 2 years of high school were rough due to my blue pill ideology not being well received by girls. In addition, this was topped off by multiple relocations during the K-12 years weakening my social circle.

When I went to college, I had been hoping that a change of scenery would improve my outcomes with women. It did not do so immediately. Part of the reason I selected the college that I selected was for its party atmosphere and the attractiveness of the female student body. It wasn't long before I started to consume seduction content online in the early 2000s. Doc Love and David DeAngelo were helpful as I started to learn more about women and what they actually respond to in mating scenarios. During that era, I did not discover Ross Jeffries or Mystery. I would have liked to have discovered Mystery sooner.

I am naturally introverted and my peak is sigma male. That's why I chose the lone wolf avatar for the sigma male. The progression from beta male to sigma male was a long and gradual process.

There's no way that I believe that Beta Bucks is a good model.

I agree with you. "Beta" in the RP parlance is transactional at its core. You do A to obtain B. The classic example is a man's resources for a woman's sex and companionship but often such an exchange is bereft of real sexual desire and therefore such interactions are inherently phony and stale after a while.

And thus we find them repugnant. I believe what OP is trying to arrive at, in his way, is that an "Alpha" male is wise to adopt some "Beta" qualities to retain women over time, and that "Beta" is not that bad if the Beta can embody some Alpha.

And that all sounds fine in theory but is almost impossible as a practical matter because when Billy Beta takes the red pill? Billy is really angry and disillusioned....and we get red pill rage.

Rage at the Machine rage (and just as unproductive.)

After that comes typically AWALT nihilistic views and that's a tough caldera to climb out of. So its tough out there for Billy Beta once the bandaid gets ripped off.

Contrast that with Antonio Alpha. He's an ass hole and going about his IDGAF business but he's having plates break because of shelf life. Andrew Alpha simply has to learn to dial back the ass hole and exhibit warmth & depth & caring to adjust to a long term interaction.

My grandfather was a wildcatter. That is an independent oil man who runs a crew, drills a well independent of a big oil company and sells the lease to big oil when it comes in. Very tough gritty profession. High risk, high reward. He made his fortune doing that. My grandmother married him young at age 19, (he was 21 or 22) loved him dearly and understood he was The. Man. (These were my father's parents.)

My grandfather prided himself on his success, his loving marriage, his ability to provide an affluent life for my grandmother, and the respect of the community. He led. She appreciated his leadership. Nothing "Billy Beta" about him. He, and really all the men in my father's family, had an intimidating air about them. They were solid men, gentlemen and they expected and respected their women to be ladies, not just women.

My son (as I've mentioned) is in a marriage with a similar dynamic. Throwback a couple of generations.

The problem with feminism is this concept of equality. Not from a equal pay for equal work perspective....but in a relationship lens its not like that. Men and women are not equal, but rather are complimentary.

If a female & male lawyer earn the same wage for the same work? Equality.

If a male & female are in relationship? Complimentary. And unions are best based in desire.

Lovers
Partners/Friends
Parents

Its much easier for an Alpha to exhibit caring, humanity and devotion.....Character.....

Than it is for a Beta to become Alpha. There is so much anger & disillusionment to get past (as I think you'd agree).

I imagine there would remain a residue of distrust toward women is also a possibility.

And that is in great measure due to the cultural landscape we are are all swimming around in.

I'd say my current husband is a Sigma dude. He's unplugged, has been the player & the bad boy, doesn't really care what most people think, is introverted and doesn't worry a lot about social convention. But he exhibits caring and love toward me. He is protective and likes providing/investing in me and us. But he will never be a "Happy wife, happy life" kind of man....and neither was my father, FWIW.

 

[justaroundthecorner]

Many doctors were rooting for the poison vaccine, and I didn't take it because you know what, the difference between you and I is that I don't make nobody an authoritarian figure to make decisions for me.

Being anti-vaxxer and spreading this uninformed nonsense is definitely nothing to be proud of.

 

[SW15]

But he will never be a "Happy wife, happy life" kind of man....and neither was my father, FWIW.

My dad worked many hours. He was a competent worker. He wasn't around long enough to say a lot of silly things about romantic relationships. However, there were numerous occasions where he did say things that could best be summarized as "happy wife, happy life" kind of things. That was not positive for me to hear. The way that my parents modeled a romantic relationship was not healthy. While the unit was competent in making money and I think my mom tried to model some complimentary behaviors, the whole relationship dynamic was not healthy. I have no positive takeaways from my parents' relationship and I try to forget everything I saw from them.

My father was a beta male in his approach to romantic relationships. As a Boomer, being a beta male wasn't as damaging as it would have been had he been born as a Millennial or a Gen Z.

In a romantic relationship, my father had a weak and/or disorganized frame.

As said earlier, there was little that I could model from my parents' relationship in trying to date as a teenager and later as an adult. When I consider my childhood, my parents' dysfunctional relationship wasn't what I would consider the biggest problem with my childhood. I was more bogged down in practical issues. The childhood relocations impacted my ability to form social circles and I had a later than average growth spurt. I was on the shorter side of my grade in later elementary, junior high, and the early part of high school. Dealing with those issues + dysfunctional parents was not that good.

Its much easier for an Alpha to exhibit caring, humanity and devotion.....Character.....

Than it is for a Beta to become Alpha. There is so much anger & disillusionment to get past (as I think you'd agree).

I imagine there would remain a residue of distrust toward women is also a possibility.

I can see some different angles on this. Rollo has often said that "alpha with a side of beta" doesn't really exist. He's also said that women spend too much time trying to look for that combination.

I think it is possible for an alpha/sigma to exhibit small doses of beta characteristics in the confines of an LTR but not reach the "alpha with a side of beta" level. Alpha/sigma males are capable of committing but it would have to be a high value woman on looks and possibly on character. Since alphas and sigmas are going to have more options, they are going to be less incentivized to be fully monogamous when they make a commitment. If an alpha/sigma has enough character and devotion, they won't have sex with other women when they commit (either non-marital LTR or marriage). Another scenario that can happen is that the primarily partner of an alpha/sigma looks the other way if their alpha/sigma boyfriend or husband has sex with other women.

The process of moving from beta to alpha or beta to sigma is a difficult one. There can be significant anger and disillusionment. It depends on when in life the beta realizes that they don't have a path forward as a beta and starts to explore seduction content and/or the red pill. It's an easier transition earlier in life before marriage and children as I did it during my late teens and 20s. I did it earlier due to major dissatisfaction with outcomes in high school and at "Hot Girl U". I put a lot into my college selection decision and wanted to be sexually successful during college and in the years after college. On my first day of college, if I had been thinking about my future, I would not have expected to stay long term with a girlfriend from college.

Betas who realize that the beta male model and blue pill ideology isn't working for them will often have to work past the distrust issue. It's difficult to say how significant this will be when they take the red pill. It depends on how successful they were as a blue pill male. Taking the red pill after some failed LTRs is more difficult than taking the red pill after numerous rejections, numerous "one date, no sex, no second date" instances, or even after failed shorter relationships.

I agree with you. "Beta" in the RP parlance is transactional at its core. You do A to obtain B. The classic example is a man's resources for a woman's sex and companionship but often such an exchange is bereft of real sexual desire and therefore such interactions are inherently phony and stale after a while.

And thus we find them repugnant.

If a beta male has enough money, he can pay for sex indirectly in the conventional mating market by using his money to seduce women. There are multiple ways this is done.

There are even alphas/sigmas that use money to attract sex indirectly so that behavior isn't inherently misaligned.

A well known example of this is Bill Gates using his Microsoft CEO money and status to get an LTR with a careerist MBA with mediocre looks from Microsoft's Marketing Department during the late 1980s. That exchange was bereft of sexual desire. Bill Gates also used his money and status to have sex with other women. Bill Gates has been a beta male with money his whole life.

I believe what OP is trying to arrive at, in his way, is that an "Alpha" male is wise to adopt some "Beta" qualities to retain women over time, and that "Beta" is not that bad if the Beta can embody some Alpha.

And that all sounds fine in theory but is almost impossible as a practical matter because when Billy Beta takes the red pill? Billy is really angry and disillusioned....and we get red pill rage.

I think it's worth discussing in practical terms. The anger and disillusionment depends on Billy Beta's own individual circumstances. We don't know the level of hurt each beta experienced in the times prior to taking the red pill.

 

[New_Journey]

You are unworthy of respect from me

That's quite alright mate. Nothing of value was lost anyways.

Being anti-vaxxer and spreading this uninformed nonsense is definitely nothing to be proud of.

We'll see.

 

[MatureDJ]

Often muscled, six pack chad is named "alpha" - his "alpha" status may be evident on the dance floor ...

This was the epitome of Alpha during the Disco Era.

 

[Pandora]

men can too! View attachment 14211

lol

wow. So its true. You are not ugly. You are just poor. Incredible.

 

[Gamisch]

The seduction and Red Pill community's dichotomy of Alpha and Beta has never fully resonated with me. It often paints both archetypes in overly simplistic, black-and-white terms, failing to account for the nuance and complexity of real human behavior. For instance, I've seen people say it’s "Beta" to cuddle with your girl or tell her you love her—basic acts of affection that, in reality, are part of a healthy relationship. The labeling gets so extreme that even women have started using the terms superficially on dating apps: “I’m looking for an Alpha,” or ironically, “I want a guy to simp for me.” Of course, in the manosphere, simping is typically associated with Beta males—or worse.

I’m not saying there’s no truth at all to the Alpha vs. Beta framework. What I am saying is that it’s not as black and white as it's often made out to be. Take Elon Musk as an example. Some would label him a Beta male because he’s had multiple children with different women, or for having a child with someone like Grimes Or Ashley St Claire. Yet, Elon is clearly an Alpha in terms of ambition, innovation, and legacy—he’s changing the world through technology and will likely be remembered for centuries. But socially or romantically, some of his choices could come off as more "Beta," possibly influenced by his neurodivergence (he's openly stated he is on the autism spectrum). Both things can be true at once.

In my view, a balanced man embodies both Alpha and Beta traits. You should be Alpha in the sense of having boundaries, self-respect, standards, and creating strong desire in your woman. But there’s nothing wrong with expressing what’s considered "Beta" qualities—like being affectionate, attentive, and emotionally present when needed. Be Alpha when you're setting the tone, taking charge, or putting her in her place if she crosses the line. Be Beta when she’s crying and needs empathy. That’s not weakness; that’s emotional intelligence.
I don’t think it’s Beta at all to provide for a woman. If anything, providing is one of the most Alpha things a man can do—after all, traditional Alphas provided for entire tribes, not just themselves.

What the seduction community gets wrong is their treatment of Beta men as the bottom of the barrel. In reality, the worst types are often Gamma and Omega males—the bitter, nihilistic, or socially disconnected types often seen in incel or blackpill circles. A Beta male, while not dominant, is still functional and capable in society. In terms of social rank and value, Betas—and even Deltas—stand higher than Gammas or Omegas any day.

Great thread @New_Journey

@Solomon qoute "
The labeling gets so extreme that even women have started using the terms superficially on dating apps: “I’m looking for an Alpha,” or ironically, “I want a guy to simp for me.”

Isn't that The key? Imo we kinda forget that THIS is the most important part of the equation: how does the woman perceive it.

E.g. there's this viral interview with this woman saying while giggling she likes her man a little toxic, even though she has a 15 y.o son(.....) and thus now could/ would/ should prefer a Micheal B Jordan over a Y.G ( the rapper).

I can spend a day with a man and at the end of the day determine he's an alpha:
- we worked a trade where we had to : sweat, think , get hurt and he kept going and kept his eyes in the price while motivating others who complained.
- I might've witnessed how he went out of his way to help a family member/ friend in need
- when someone acted funny and broke a traffic rule I witnessed how he stood his ground and wasn't afraid to both call out and (de)escalate the situation ,unafraid and unapologetic.
- and finally I might see how he rizzed up a woman at the register or the waitress wich proves he knows his way with words and women.
( basically I would feel save around this man, and simultaneously respect his character)

Yet any particular woman might look at him as beta!! She might feel like the man who
- recklessly does crime without thinking it through and gets caught and does time over and over again
- isn't loyal to women and lives a lie
- doesn't card about his offspring / family and thus is able to " save money " and put that money in shyte like dating HER ,wearing designer ect
( basically I would look down on this man, and distrust him going forward)
She might say this dude is more alpha/ exiting/ triggering feelz than the first dude!!!

I would fatherly advice her to go for the first man. But again, if SHE is convinced he isn't alpha because he lacks ..toxicity..then who am I to tell her otherwise?

Again, what WE as men perceive as alpha might (and oftentimes will be) completely different from what the woman/ women will say. So it's extremely difficult to define this terminology.

 

[Gamisch]

That's quite alright mate. Nothing of value was lost anyways.


We'll see.

Lets keep the conversation civilised and on topic . Lets limit the personal vendetta to the dms and stay on topic. It's a food thread and this silly back and forth shyte stains the thread unnecessarily.

 

[plumber]

Again, what WE as men perceive as alpha might (and oftentimes will be) completely different from what the woman/ women will say. So it's extremely difficult to define this terminology.

I see many women that define alpha as winner. For my personal definition and many men it means something different. something like leader and enforcer. for women, it is just winner, winner of ANY conflict. women often don't really care about our alpha ideas, only who wins in a conflict. they like the winner, and usually don't care about the methods used to win. honor is way less important than the win.

 

[justaroundthecorner]

I see many women that define alpha as winner. For my personal definition and many men it means something different. something like leader and enforcer. for women, it is just winner, winner of ANY conflict. women often don't really care about our alpha ideas, only who wins in a conflict. they like the winner, and usually don't care about the methods used to win. honor is way less important than the win.

I think that's more complicated than that.

Some females are better upbringed and respect traditional/conservative values and they are a mix that I could describe as "HQ Beta" or "Domesticated Alpha" - guy that can deal with a lot of issues, has his matters under control, excels at job, can be a good provider, father, husband etc. the list goes on - these are definitely not the females that are heavily addicted to male attention and - usually - not top in the "looks" tier (but every mature guy should know that looks is not the most important aspect about female - even if subjective passing of "looks requirements"is a precondition for first several dates and eventually a relationship.

Now, there is nothing wrong in being beta - I am for sure not alpha - I am either beta or mix of beta and omega - when I was younger I was wannabe sigma but if was self-delusion as I was never that attractive, that independent and that self-sufficient.

I am also against statement that "omega males" are incels - incels are their own category (due to strong social skills deficiency due to internal or external factors) while every type of male (alpha, beta, delta, gamma, omega, sigma etc.) can bring a lot of valuable input into the society.

Now, there are sexy and smart (or relatively sexy and relatively smart - if you care too much of others opinions) females that will be interested in you irrespective of your personality type - I think there was research that stated that every person will have approx 4 to 7 persons in all his social circles during lifetime that will give him or her a clean shot for serious relationship or green lights for possibly LTR-related dating - which is a gift from Mother Nature tbh.

The issue that a lot of men & women have now is fixation on self-improvement and pursuing endless opportunities for meeting new persons (and not to be tied with the worse option too much) - the effect of this are "situationships" (relationships w/o commitment among young people) as well as various dating strategies or relationship strategies that allow at least one person in relationship to have a possibility to date (and effectively have sex) with other people.

That's also Mother Nature in work - but at some point you need to know when to stop going after unknown unicorn or prince charming and evaluate your true possibilities to attract another person - when I was 34 I finally understood already that I need to look for a person that I like and can trust (not only a person that I find hot) and I have amended my criteria and take correction and exclude my attention for the most attractive physical types as they screamed entitled and high maintenance but also heavy previous relationships baggage - the result was spectacular - not only I found great 27y old female that was much more attractive IRL than on of poor quality and resolution photos she had I have also met someone that finds me very attractive and matches me well especially with her character.

Both men and females are currently tied to this idea that they should get "the best" of the best and will not accept mediocrity - my view is that they do not understand themselves and others, they forgot what are the qualities of perfect partner and do not really understand what is the best for them - they also cannot objectively assess mediocrity.

Poor character is prevalent with physically attractive people. Same goes for entitlement, narcissistic behaviour, lack of empathy towards others, hedonistic approach to life etc.

If one says that female is 10/10 because of her looks I can only smirk and go my own way. There are very attractive people out there that are in every possible situation not a material for partners for anybody yet as a society that is swimming deep in pool of consumptionism all we are interested in are looks and money.

Sometimes I wonder how I need to raise my daughter in such a superficial and - to this extent - evil world.

I think that current culture (in particular movies) promote narcissistic and egoistic behaviours and society brought the crisis of "working man" value / "decent beta" on itself - both normal men and women were bombarded so long both by society and their parents that they need to be exceptional and something else than ordinary that it took incredibly heavy toll on whole social structure and issues people have nowadays with personal lives are just the part of larger problem.

I personally know at least two guys that have dating issues (one - connected with too high expectations Vs his objective attractiveness - other is dysfunctional but wants to perceive himself as lone wolf and tries to date with females that are totally not naturally synchronised with his type of character) I also know females that could have great guys (and at some point were objectively cool females, definitely attractive wifey materials) that choose c**k-carousel hoping to have fun and wait for a decent guy in the mean time - they now got too old and their dating pool and negative effects of c**ck carousel have taken the toll on their character - therefore now they would not even be able to date the guys they kept at "waiting line" 15 years ago.

The art of life is also about appreciating normal, standard relationships, personalities, trying to look past what's superficial, knowing when to stop chasing unrealistic expectations, knowing your limits, knowing what's objectively good and what is wrong - a lot of persons nowadays prefer illusion (in particular created with help of social medias) than reality.