Who came up with this notion?

[SpartanWarrior77]

I was inspired to start this thread after reading one earlier that shared similar thoughts:

To give some context, I remember being a guy who was very idealistic/idealogical. I loved creating theories of how things should be and I would often share this with my friends/bros as well as women in my life. I had a GF for a couple of years and for the most part, I kept a pretty tight frame. One thing I did notice is that at first she was very patient with me in some ways seeming to wholeheartedly agree with everything I would say (men should be more dominant, etc). Later on, she would twist my logic against me and then resort to emotion when my logic overpowered hers. In other words, it was increasingly tougher to win arguments.

So this insight is multifaceted and I'd like to hear about it from other DJs...

Maybe the whole problem was that I was trying to have too much of a mental connection with her. Don't get me wrong, the sex was great and all but I have found a tendency in my mind of trying to get other people to agree to my theories. It seems like getting her on board with your theories only works superficially and can be used against you later. Maybe a man should seek to control the dynamic way beyond the verbal. I guess this is what Rollo says when he talks about the difference be covert and overt.

Maybe men should reduce the display of their internal mechanics to a woman except during select moments. This may be the case for other men as well. When you show your thought processes, emotional hangups and theories on life to people, you need to be careful. It's like a mechanic showing his engine to competitors. They could copy it and/or manipulate it. I just don't know how realistic this way of being is. I mean how do you do this long term? Eventually, you're going to want to be more vulnerable (especially around an LTR).

Is anyone here doing a version of this in an LTR? Any thoughts in general? Curious...

 

[Black Widow Void]

Great question and I've often thought about similar things.

So far, I've come up with two theories.

The first is the old saying "familiarity breeds contempt."
Quite often, when we are more secure around someone (knowing that they aren't going to walk away) we are more apt to express things that previously, we may have not.

Secondly, sometimes, it's a matter of wanting things to be like before and such behavior is an attempt at pushing things back to the previous 'status-quo.'

In my youth, I worked for a husband and wife owned business. There were certain days when the wife would really ride her husband in the work place. I often wondered if she knew that this would rile him. and consequently, he would rile her up in the bedroom?

 

[oldmanofthesea]

My view is that women are far better than men at playing the long game. It’s in a woman’s nature to test her man by continuously challenging him and without consciously realizing it, hopes he wins so that she can experience his masculine power. Women remember everything you say and use it against you in order to try to manipulate or win arguments.

Over the years I have learned a simple formula for dealing with this.
1. Never argue with a woman. This means you should avoid philosophical “debates.” You can listen to her opinions and you can state yours but you should never try to changer her mind or try to “win.” If she is upset about something, listen to her genuinely and try to understand her points and feelings and if possible, try to help her uncover the deeper cause of her emotions. If what she is saying is in conflict with what you believe, you should tell her that you completely understand her feelings but then explain that this is how YOU feel about it, and then whatever she says in response to challenge your feelings, you do not argue or debate. You just say yes I understand you feel that way, but it doesn’t change my feelings or position on it.
2. You decide what your boundaries are and you stick to them always. If you need to communicate them to her, you do so as explained in #1 above. And you should be willing to walk away from the relationship if she crosses them after being warned. You do not let her tell you which of your boundaries are “acceptable” and which are not. If the problem isn’t quite a boundary breaking situation, so it doesn’t call for a breakup, but you still really don’t like it, you withdraw some of your time and attention from her based on her behavior. She will hate that but it’s the only tool you have when you have tried communication and it didn’t work. Another way to put this is if you feel strongly about something (strong enough that you consider it a boundary), you must be UNMOVABLE. A woman will nearly always try to move you but you must not move away from your truth. She will fuss, she will scream, she will go nuts in her attempts, but you do not move. Despite her displays and efforts, what she really wants is to experience your strength as you stand firm for your truth - and it doesn't really even matter that she wants this - you are doing it for yourself first and foremost. I only mention it is what she wants too, because she will make it seem the opposite.
3. You remain calm, and not impacted by her emotions. You be the rock she can cling to.

I have employed this in my recent relationships and it has been extremely effective. The best part for me is that it takes all the guesswork out of things, and prevents manipulation. It also helps me move on from relationships that won’t work because I know I did everything I could that was healthy. There is no wondering or questioning myself.

For me, it was a real struggle to change my communication method when having a "debate" or discussion with someone about something. I am still trying to perfect it. I am very convinced in my beliefs, because I believe I do a really good job of researching my opinions, but I am always open to new opinions and ideas from others and I have changed a lot about what I believe over the years - I have evolved. Obviously red pill is just one example of that. But if I see someone's argument or opinion as obviously unhealthy, untrue, or not grounded in reality or fact after I have listened to them, I become a bit arrogant about my position/view and this manifests itself as arguing and shooting down the other person's argument. While that might be good in politics or debate competition, it is not good for relationships (romantic or platonic). Often times, and ESPECIALLY with women, people just want to feel heard and understood - they don't necessarily need you to agree with them. And that is the adjustment I have had to make. To listen and try to convey that I understand what they are saying, while not trying to invalidate or dismantle it with logic, facts, and reason.

Instead of....
Me: This is how this thing is and these are all the reasons why
Her: But this is what I think and these are the reasons why
Me: Well your reason #1 is wrong because of this and this and this fact, and your reason #2 is wrong because of this and this fact

I now do.....
Me: This is how I feel and these are all the reasons why
Her: Well this is how I feel and these are the reasons why
Me: I see - that's interesting. I hear what you are saying.

You don't even have to tell them they are wrong. Just hear each other's view and understand. There doesn't need to be a "win" because you can very rarely win an argument. Usually no matter how great a job you do of making your case, the other person leaves the argument feeling more convinced in their belief than before the argument begun. Instead of challenging the other person by trying to prove their facts wrong, if you want to keep that conversation going you can ask them questions instead.

In a more real-world example that you are likely to find yourself with a woman:
Her: I want you to block your ex on social media
Me: Why do you want that?
Her: Because there is no reason for you to be connected any more. You're in a new relationship now with me and there's no reason you need to be connected to her
Me: What about my being connected to her on social media is bothering you (I continue to try to get to the ROOT cause - not argue with her - I continue asking questions)
Her: I don't want you talking to her
Me: What makes you think that my being connected to her on social media means I'm talking to her?
Her: I just don't think exes should be connected on social media. I'm not connected with any of mine
Me: Ok, I understand if you don't stay connected, but I'm not talking to her and just because we are connected on social media doesn't mean I am. I understand how you feel about this, but when you tell me you want me to block a person I'm connected with, it makes me feel like you believe you can control me and I will never let another person tell me who I can and can't be connected with, so I won't be blocking her.
Her: <insert literally any push back here>
Me: I hear you. I understand how you feel. But I've told you how I feel and I'm not going to change my mind.

If she continues pushing, you just walk away and withdraw from her a bit until she lets it go. It's that easy. And if she keeps hassling you, then you know you aren't compatible. At no point did I argue there. I just tried to understand her, then communicated how I felt about it and where I stood and that's it. Never argue or debate. Just understand, and communicate.

 

[Barrister]

Trying to use "logic" with women is generally a losing scenario in the relationship setting (no matter what he relationship is). Emotions will always override clinical ways of looking at things for them. Similarly, philosophy is not something that is going to resonate with most women. Think of the great philosophers (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, etc.). They are all men. The underlying issue is that logic and philosophy have everything to do with a man's words. This resonates with other men -- not so much women.

For women, it is about our actions. We tell them what we are going to do and they get on for the ride. If they don't like it, they stay behind. Most women, in my experience, respond positively to this. Most women, on the other hand, respond negatively to a man who is indecisive or who asks her what she wants to do. It's about action and leading - not our words.

 

[bat soup]

I was inspired to start this thread after reading one earlier that shared similar thoughts:

To give some context, I remember being a guy who was very idealistic/idealogical. I loved creating theories of how things should be and I would often share this with my friends/bros as well as women in my life. I had a GF for a couple of years and for the most part, I kept a pretty tight frame. One thing I did notice is that at first she was very patient with me in some ways seeming to wholeheartedly agree with everything I would say (men should be more dominant, etc). Later on, she would twist my logic against me and then resort to emotion when my logic overpowered hers. In other words, it was increasingly tougher to win arguments.

So this insight is multifaceted and I'd like to hear about it from other DJs...

Maybe the whole problem was that I was trying to have too much of a mental connection with her. Don't get me wrong, the sex was great and all but I have found a tendency in my mind of trying to get other people to agree to my theories. It seems like getting her on board with your theories only works superficially and can be used against you later. Maybe a man should seek to control the dynamic way beyond the verbal. I guess this is what Rollo says when he talks about the difference be covert and overt.

Maybe men should reduce the display of their internal mechanics to a woman except during select moments. This may be the case for other men as well. When you show your thought processes, emotional hangups and theories on life to people, you need to be careful. It's like a mechanic showing his engine to competitors. They could copy it and/or manipulate it. I just don't know how realistic this way of being is. I mean how do you do this long term? Eventually, you're going to want to be more vulnerable (especially around an LTR).

Is anyone here doing a version of this in an LTR? Any thoughts in general? Curious...

Sometimes you have to be careful about things you say because smart people can guess at what prompted you to say or think about that subject.

Over time people can get to know each other very well and know each others thoughts just from their expression or voice.

 

[Kotaix]

Maybe the whole problem was that I was trying to have too much of a mental connection with her. Don't get me wrong, the sex was great and all but I have found a tendency in my mind of trying to get other people to agree to my theories. It seems like getting her on board with your theories only works superficially and can be used against you later. Maybe a man should seek to control the dynamic way beyond the verbal. I guess this is what Rollo says when he talks about the difference be covert and overt.

This isn't exclusive to women. Most people have no real interest at all in whatever theories you come up with unless they also have a philosophical approach to life, they also do not like having their world view challenged. Almost everyone reacts to this by becoming stubborn instead of trying to understand what you're saying. It's also psychological fact that you cannot change people's perspectives with logic or facts alone, you have to use emotion to appeal to someone to listen to the facts, and you have to do it properly or it backfires.

Also, most women do not care about how things work, they just want them to work. They care about how things make them feel. You're trying to match up puzzle pieces that don't fit together.

Maybe men should reduce the display of their internal mechanics to a woman except during select moments. This may be the case for other men as well. When you show your thought processes, emotional hangups and theories on life to people, you need to be careful. It's like a mechanic showing his engine to competitors. They could copy it and/or manipulate it. I just don't know how realistic this way of being is. I mean how do you do this long term? Eventually, you're going to want to be more vulnerable (especially around an LTR).

Is anyone here doing a version of this in an LTR? Any thoughts in general? Curious...

Do not give away your internal mechanics to women or men. Because, to be brutally honest, no one other than you cares. What you should never do however is betray your principles. A man is only as strong as his faith in himself and his own principles. There is nothing wrong with being vulnerable, I'm not sure you can have an LTR without it, but there is a huge difference between being vulnerable and being a sbumissive mangina.

I'm in a relationship with a progressive feminist. I'm a red pilled libertarian. She hates the fact that I voted for trump, she has tried repeatedly to get me to change my mind and think like her by becoming agitated and crying and using dread on me. I don't like the fact that she's upset, but I will absolutely not back down on my position to appease her. I have always marched to the beat of my own drum and she continues to respect me because I won't compromise.

 

[samspade]

First rule of Fight Club.

It's fine to say what you think to a woman. It's pointless to get into deep reasons why you think so.

I usually just brush it off with something like "hey, I don't make the rules," or "that's just my two cents" or "everyone's different." All of which is accurate. She has her truths and you have yours. If you think it's a universal truth because you read it on a seduction forum, think again.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

My view is that women are far better than men at playing the long game. It’s in a woman’s nature to test her man by continuously challenging him and without consciously realizing it, hopes he wins so that she can experience his masculine power. Women remember everything you say and use it against you in order to try to manipulate or win arguments.

Over the years I have learned a simple formula for dealing with this.
1. Never argue with a woman. This means you should avoid philosophical “debates.” You can listen to her opinions and you can state yours but you should never try to changer her mind or try to “win.” If she is upset about something, listen to her genuinely and try to understand her points and feelings and if possible, try to help her uncover the deeper cause of her emotions. If what she is saying is in conflict with what you believe, you should tell her that you completely understand her feelings but then explain that this is how YOU feel about it, and then whatever she says in response to challenge your feelings, you do not argue or debate. You just say yes I understand you feel that way, but it doesn’t change my feelings or position on it.
2. You decide what your boundaries are and you stick to them always. If you need to communicate them to her, you do so as explained in #1 above. And you should be willing to walk away from the relationship if she crosses them after being warned. You do not let her tell you which of your boundaries are “acceptable” and which are not. If the problem isn’t quite a boundary breaking situation, so it doesn’t call for a breakup, but you still really don’t like it, you withdraw some of your time and attention from her based on her behavior. She will hate that but it’s the only tool you have when you have tried communication and it didn’t work. Another way to put this is if you feel strongly about something (strong enough that you consider it a boundary), you must be UNMOVABLE. A woman will nearly always try to move you but you must not move away from your truth. She will fuss, she will scream, she will go nuts in her attempts, but you do not move. Despite her displays and efforts, what she really wants is to experience your strength as you stand firm for your truth - and it doesn't really even matter that she wants this - you are doing it for yourself first and foremost. I only mention it is what she wants too, because she will make it seem the opposite.
3. You remain calm, and not impacted by her emotions. You be the rock she can cling to.

I have employed this in my recent relationships and it has been extremely effective. The best part for me is that it takes all the guesswork out of things, and prevents manipulation. It also helps me move on from relationships that won’t work because I know I did everything I could that was healthy. There is no wondering or questioning myself.

For me, it was a real struggle to change my communication method when having a "debate" or discussion with someone about something. I am still trying to perfect it. I am very convinced in my beliefs, because I believe I do a really good job of researching my opinions, but I am always open to new opinions and ideas from others and I have changed a lot about what I believe over the years - I have evolved. Obviously red pill is just one example of that. But if I see someone's argument or opinion as obviously unhealthy, untrue, or not grounded in reality or fact after I have listened to them, I become a bit arrogant about my position/view and this manifests itself as arguing and shooting down the other person's argument. While that might be good in politics or debate competition, it is not good for relationships (romantic or platonic). Often times, and ESPECIALLY with women, people just want to feel heard and understood - they don't necessarily need you to agree with them. And that is the adjustment I have had to make. To listen and try to convey that I understand what they are saying, while not trying to invalidate or dismantle it with logic, facts, and reason.

Instead of....
Me: This is how this thing is and these are all the reasons why
Her: But this is what I think and these are the reasons why
Me: Well your reason #1 is wrong because of this and this and this fact, and your reason #2 is wrong because of this and this fact

I now do.....
Me: This is how I feel and these are all the reasons why
Her: Well this is how I feel and these are the reasons why
Me: I see - that's interesting. I hear what you are saying.

You don't even have to tell them they are wrong. Just hear each other's view and understand. There doesn't need to be a "win" because you can very rarely win an argument. Usually no matter how great a job you do of making your case, the other person leaves the argument feeling more convinced in their belief than before the argument begun. Instead of challenging the other person by trying to prove their facts wrong, if you want to keep that conversation going you can ask them questions instead.

In a more real-world example that you are likely to find yourself with a woman:
Her: I want you to block your ex on social media
Me: Why do you want that?
Her: Because there is no reason for you to be connected any more. You're in a new relationship now with me and there's no reason you need to be connected to her
Me: What about my being connected to her on social media is bothering you (I continue to try to get to the ROOT cause - not argue with her - I continue asking questions)
Her: I don't want you talking to her
Me: What makes you think that my being connected to her on social media means I'm talking to her?
Her: I just don't think exes should be connected on social media. I'm not connected with any of mine
Me: Ok, I understand if you don't stay connected, but I'm not talking to her and just because we are connected on social media doesn't mean I am. I understand how you feel about this, but when you tell me you want me to block a person I'm connected with, it makes me feel like you believe you can control me and I will never let another person tell me who I can and can't be connected with, so I won't be blocking her.
Her: <insert literally any push back here>
Me: I hear you. I understand how you feel. But I've told you how I feel and I'm not going to change my mind.

If she continues pushing, you just walk away and withdraw from her a bit until she lets it go. It's that easy. And if she keeps hassling you, then you know you aren't compatible. At no point did I argue there. I just tried to understand her, then communicated how I felt about it and where I stood and that's it. Never argue or debate. Just understand, and communicate.

I’d like to add something.

At some point you’re gonna have to put your foot down. Communication can only take you so far. Sometimes she’s just being a belligerent ***** for no reason. And on the surface level, you don’t know why and neither does she even. But as you dig deeper, there are two possible reasons for it:

1) She has eyes somewhere else
2) She needs to be made to feel like a woman again, i.e. she needs to be seriously ****ed down, hard. If a woman doesn’t have that release, she gets kinda ancy and become somewhat cunty. So become like that rough bad boy doing risqué things to let her know that she’s your sex toy (you don’t go all out and dial this up to 11 right away, you start off by being more rough in the bedroom and then become more and more sexual over time to the point where you’re doing **** that high school kids would do lol).

This actually happens to me all the time on sosuave, believe it or not. Probably because of my popularity. Some passive aggressive members would try twist my logic against me and then resort to emotional responses when I overpower them with logic and actual real life experience. And then they throw one last ad hominem and disappear.

This is a form of frame grabbing. They purposely pretend to misunderstand you when they know damn well what you are talking about. It's a power game to gain control and dominance. What I do is I call out their questions as stupid and an obvious attempt to purposely misunderstand me.

99% of the time, this works. But 1% of the time, the person would actually ride out their stupid logic because they don't want to be caught attempting to manipulate. This is when I use logic and experience to overpower them. Then comes the emotional/sarcastic/snarky responses, and then they leave.

Either way, you always look good in the end. Because you stuck to logic. You didn't get passive aggressive like a female.

Even though this has happened to me hundreds of times throughout the years, I still stick to my mode of communication. Because I understand something about dominance.

The most dominant person in the room is not the one trying to dominate. This is actually the most over-compensating person in the room.

The most dominant person in the room is the one everyone is reacting to.

I make it a rule to never step outside my lane and react to anyone. They always come to me. All arguments and debates start because the overcompensating person is reacting to me. So no matter what happens, I will always look less reactive.

To the over-compensating person, they do not see this. They can't see beyond their own frames, like a fish stuck in a fishbowl. He can't see beyond his little fish bowl. But to everyone else, it is obvious who is reacting to whom. It is obvious who is acting like they've got something to prove and who is secure.

...

Stormrider, a lot of your posts are insightful and all, but your hubris is making you think this is all about yourself. It’s great that your on cloud 9, but your head is so far up in the clouds like that, you aren’t really grounded in reality anymore.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

And what is reality but the strongest frame?

Fair enough, but it also needs to have something concrete to go along with it, lest it become delusions of grandeur. For example, talking about how people on SS hate on you because you’re just so popular is not grounded in the reality of a thread asking about why a man cannot have deeper and more meaningful conversations with his girlfriend/wife about life under the risk of having her attack who he is as a person. Pointing this out is not hubris. It is guidance.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

You probably didn't read my entire post then. Or perhaps it skipped over your head, which is understandable. My entire history with you is I would usually say something that would skip over your head and then you would admit I'm right a year later. Such is the case of a guy who lacks life experience but has the hubris of a professor.

I started off saying that it is feminine behavior. So whether or not I use men or women as an example, it's still the same. And then in the second half I told why women use the same tactics and how to deal with it.

Whatever I wrote is completely within topic.

The OP wrote: "This may be the case for other men as well. When you show your thought processes, emotional hangups and theories on life to people, you need to be careful. It's like a mechanic showing his engine to competitors. They could copy it and/or manipulate it. I just don't know how realistic this way of being is. I mean how do you do this long term? Eventually, you're going to want to be more vulnerable (especially around an LTR)."

In this paragraph, the OP was clearly talking about other men using the same tactics. He no longer was talking within the paradigm of romance, but people in general.

Did you pass english 101 in university yet? lol.

This response, especially to someone half your age on the Internet who you’ve never met before (as you mentioned) is indicative that you’re too reactive to these words on a screen. You are overcompensating, even by your own judgement. That makes me the dominant one here. But you already knew that.

Did you pass english 101 in university yet? lol.

I shall leave you with this quote, from you:

Then comes the emotional/sarcastic/snarky responses

I am you, stormrider.

 

[nicksaiz65]

This response, especially to someone half your age on the Internet who you’ve never met before (as you mentioned) is indicative that you’re too reactive to these words on a screen. You are overcompensating, even by your own judgement. That makes me the dominant one here. But you already knew that.

I shall leave you with this quote, from you:

I am you, stormrider.

Not to derail the thread but welcome back bro!

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

Not to derail the thread but welcome back bro!

Thanks man. Only was banned for a month so the thing ended like 2 and a half months ago, I kinda forgot about this place lol but only logged back on cuz I got a PM from someone and SS sent me an email to notify me so I was like “alright I guess I’ll check it out again”

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

Okay you are the dominant one. You are the stormrider now. I pass it on to you my son.

You always knew I wasn’t like the rest here.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

Make yourself your own mental point of origin.
Learn this dude

No your in the mass heap of the REST of the frustrated chumps... assured

We’re all the same in the end, aren’t we?

 

[SpartanWarrior77]

My view is that women are far better than men at playing the long game. It’s in a woman’s nature to test her man by continuously challenging him and without consciously realizing it, hopes he wins so that she can experience his masculine power. Women remember everything you say and use it against you in order to try to manipulate or win arguments.

Over the years I have learned a simple formula for dealing with this.
1. Never argue with a woman. This means you should avoid philosophical “debates.” You can listen to her opinions and you can state yours but you should never try to changer her mind or try to “win.” If she is upset about something, listen to her genuinely and try to understand her points and feelings and if possible, try to help her uncover the deeper cause of her emotions. If what she is saying is in conflict with what you believe, you should tell her that you completely understand her feelings but then explain that this is how YOU feel about it, and then whatever she says in response to challenge your feelings, you do not argue or debate. You just say yes I understand you feel that way, but it doesn’t change my feelings or position on it.
2. You decide what your boundaries are and you stick to them always. If you need to communicate them to her, you do so as explained in #1 above. And you should be willing to walk away from the relationship if she crosses them after being warned. You do not let her tell you which of your boundaries are “acceptable” and which are not. If the problem isn’t quite a boundary breaking situation, so it doesn’t call for a breakup, but you still really don’t like it, you withdraw some of your time and attention from her based on her behavior. She will hate that but it’s the only tool you have when you have tried communication and it didn’t work. Another way to put this is if you feel strongly about something (strong enough that you consider it a boundary), you must be UNMOVABLE. A woman will nearly always try to move you but you must not move away from your truth. She will fuss, she will scream, she will go nuts in her attempts, but you do not move. Despite her displays and efforts, what she really wants is to experience your strength as you stand firm for your truth - and it doesn't really even matter that she wants this - you are doing it for yourself first and foremost. I only mention it is what she wants too, because she will make it seem the opposite.
3. You remain calm, and not impacted by her emotions. You be the rock she can cling to.

I have employed this in my recent relationships and it has been extremely effective. The best part for me is that it takes all the guesswork out of things, and prevents manipulation. It also helps me move on from relationships that won’t work because I know I did everything I could that was healthy. There is no wondering or questioning myself.

For me, it was a real struggle to change my communication method when having a "debate" or discussion with someone about something. I am still trying to perfect it. I am very convinced in my beliefs, because I believe I do a really good job of researching my opinions, but I am always open to new opinions and ideas from others and I have changed a lot about what I believe over the years - I have evolved. Obviously red pill is just one example of that. But if I see someone's argument or opinion as obviously unhealthy, untrue, or not grounded in reality or fact after I have listened to them, I become a bit arrogant about my position/view and this manifests itself as arguing and shooting down the other person's argument. While that might be good in politics or debate competition, it is not good for relationships (romantic or platonic). Often times, and ESPECIALLY with women, people just want to feel heard and understood - they don't necessarily need you to agree with them. And that is the adjustment I have had to make. To listen and try to convey that I understand what they are saying, while not trying to invalidate or dismantle it with logic, facts, and reason.

Instead of....
Me: This is how this thing is and these are all the reasons why
Her: But this is what I think and these are the reasons why
Me: Well your reason #1 is wrong because of this and this and this fact, and your reason #2 is wrong because of this and this fact

I now do.....
Me: This is how I feel and these are all the reasons why
Her: Well this is how I feel and these are the reasons why
Me: I see - that's interesting. I hear what you are saying.

You don't even have to tell them they are wrong. Just hear each other's view and understand. There doesn't need to be a "win" because you can very rarely win an argument. Usually no matter how great a job you do of making your case, the other person leaves the argument feeling more convinced in their belief than before the argument begun. Instead of challenging the other person by trying to prove their facts wrong, if you want to keep that conversation going you can ask them questions instead.

In a more real-world example that you are likely to find yourself with a woman:
Her: I want you to block your ex on social media
Me: Why do you want that?
Her: Because there is no reason for you to be connected any more. You're in a new relationship now with me and there's no reason you need to be connected to her
Me: What about my being connected to her on social media is bothering you (I continue to try to get to the ROOT cause - not argue with her - I continue asking questions)
Her: I don't want you talking to her
Me: What makes you think that my being connected to her on social media means I'm talking to her?
Her: I just don't think exes should be connected on social media. I'm not connected with any of mine
Me: Ok, I understand if you don't stay connected, but I'm not talking to her and just because we are connected on social media doesn't mean I am. I understand how you feel about this, but when you tell me you want me to block a person I'm connected with, it makes me feel like you believe you can control me and I will never let another person tell me who I can and can't be connected with, so I won't be blocking her.
Her: <insert literally any push back here>
Me: I hear you. I understand how you feel. But I've told you how I feel and I'm not going to change my mind.

If she continues pushing, you just walk away and withdraw from her a bit until she lets it go. It's that easy. And if she keeps hassling you, then you know you aren't compatible. At no point did I argue there. I just tried to understand her, then communicated how I felt about it and where I stood and that's it. Never argue or debate. Just understand, and communicate.

Thanks for the time you put into this message. Overall, the takeaway for me was that you don't have to do a debate-style conversation with a woman. The dynamics are too asymmetrical bw men and women for there to be any "fair" debate. Instead, use a less head-on approach. One thing that seems to be a byproduct of this modified approach is that it seems that arguments/conflicts with her will not necessarily end in clear resolutions. This could be a problem in some ways especially if you like instant gratification and want a clear conclusion to each friction point. You basically have to be okay with leaving things open-ended and you need to somehow train her to be the same way. This is what it seems to be leading to.

 

[SpartanWarrior77]

Trying to use "logic" with women is generally a losing scenario in the relationship setting (no matter what he relationship is). Emotions will always override clinical ways of looking at things for them. Similarly, philosophy is not something that is going to resonate with most women. Think of the great philosophers (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, etc.). They are all men. The underlying issue is that logic and philosophy have everything to do with a man's words. This resonates with other men -- not so much women.

For women, it is about our actions. We tell them what we are going to do and they get on for the ride. If they don't like it, they stay behind. Most women, in my experience, respond positively to this. Most women, on the other hand, respond negatively to a man who is indecisive or who asks her what she wants to do. It's about action and leading - not our words.

Yeah good points especially regarding the notion of speaking in actions. I think these points apply beyond the sexes to some degree. I think men have a propensity to talk too much. Most of us would probably be better off taking words and knowledge less seriously and instead mastering the covert dynamics underlying social interactions. In the past, the way that I would sometimes manipulate social interactions with women was by getting them to agree to certain world views and theories. I'm actually quite good at this so I could pull it off to some extent but this tactic came at a price because later on, as I said, it could be used against me.

 

[SpartanWarrior77]

Dont be vulnerable. Be balanced but always treat them like you just met them. Sexually and personally in a fun way.
Always remind her how annoying she is. Tastefully that is.
My wife is vietnamese so i just tell her i dont understand. Lol

Luck you haha

 

[SpartanWarrior77]

This isn't exclusive to women. Most people have no real interest at all in whatever theories you come up with unless they also have a philosophical approach to life, they also do not like having their world view challenged. Almost everyone reacts to this by becoming stubborn instead of trying to understand what you're saying. It's also psychological fact that you cannot change people's perspectives with logic or facts alone, you have to use emotion to appeal to someone to listen to the facts, and you have to do it properly or it backfires.

Also, most women do not care about how things work, they just want them to work. They care about how things make them feel. You're trying to match up puzzle pieces that don't fit together.


Do not give away your internal mechanics to women or men. Because, to be brutally honest, no one other than you cares. What you should never do however is betray your principles. A man is only as strong as his faith in himself and his own principles. There is nothing wrong with being vulnerable, I'm not sure you can have an LTR without it, but there is a huge difference between being vulnerable and being a sbumissive mangina.

I'm in a relationship with a progressive feminist. I'm a red pilled libertarian. She hates the fact that I voted for trump, she has tried repeatedly to get me to change my mind and think like her by becoming agitated and crying and using dread on me. I don't like the fact that she's upset, but I will absolutely not back down on my position to appease her. I have always marched to the beat of my own drum and she continues to respect me because I won't compromise.

Thanks for the comment! Yeah, the more I mature, the more I see the truth in appealing to people's emotion first. If you're going to serve "logic" to someone, better serve it on a beautiful hot plate when they're starving (covered in emotion). Also would be curious to know more about why you are with a "progressive feminist"? I personally would probably not be in an LTR with one but I know some alphas that are in similar boats and I always wondered what their mindset was to pull this kind of thing off?

 

[SpartanWarrior77]

You are only supposed to show your internal mechanics to those that are interested. And women have no interest in it. She might tolerate it at the beginning just to seduce you. But eventually she will wonder why you are trying to convince her so much. Are you unsure of yourself?

When it comes to dealing with women, everything is about value and strength, not genius. Only men trying to reach your level care about your genius. And the men threatened by your dominance will seek to out-alpha you.

Gold.

 

[SpartanWarrior77]

First rule of Fight Club.

It's fine to say what you think to a woman. It's pointless to get into deep reasons why you think so.

I usually just brush it off with something like "hey, I don't make the rules," or "that's just my two cents" or "everyone's different." All of which is accurate. She has her truths and you have yours. If you think it's a universal truth because you read it on a seduction forum, think again.

Short and sweet. Yeah, it's tough to get into the habit of talking to your woman in "deflective/humorous ways". But it may be the better counterpart to a habit of overly logical modes.