When you start to look aged

[Tenacity]

Be Excellent,

Either you are a fraud/liar/bullshyter, or you are the typical "female" that lacks any type of logic and ration. I'm going to go through some of the things you said, which shows how you contradict the fvck out of yourself and why men should NEVER listen to a woman for dating, relationship or advice period on women.

1.) Your Bullshyt Advice

For women with lots of choices "gorgeous" really can't hold interest if the rest of the package is hollow or shallow. You'll either get shallow women or you'll get used and dropped....

To me a boyish face screams inexperience, which I am not interested in and do not have time to waste on.

First thing, the vast majority of women in this market are shallow as hell and that includes YOU, as by your own admission you stated that if a guy has a "boyish face" then that's a sign of INEXPERIENCE? WTF? So Marco Rubio (who looks like a little boy in the face) has no experience in life?

The definition of "shallow" is having LITTLE DEPTH. When you look at a guy and say, "Welp, he has a boyish face, I won't talk to him..." you are just as SHALLOW as the girl who says, "Damn, he has a nice 6 pack, I want to sleep with him!"

Furthermore, as I stated prior, Looks is what starts the engagement and if you are very high up on the Looks scale (over an 8) you can be a damn 3 in Personality and a 3 in Finances, and STILL manage a healthy plate portfolio. You can still spin plates of chicks that are at least a 6 or 7. I see this shyt everyday, where the guy is broke as hell, personality is dull as hell, but because he's physically fit or "handsome" in some type of way, chicks will still dig him.

You want a girl who thinks YOU are attractive just the way you are today (to date, to fool around with, whatever).

Just the way you are huh? Sounds like something Bambi said.

 

[Tenacity]

2.) Your Contradictions

For me attraction is about experience and leadership.

Really? Okay, keep going......

But how is someone who has accomplished less than me going to lead me in a relationship? They can't.

Fact is I supported my husband for 15 years after he lost his business and was saddled with enormous costs and he had no income. I already out earned him when we married. My Dad actually expressed concern about that beforehand, which I ignored.

Lol, whoa now? So you are attracted to men who are leaders and have experience, and you believe that a woman can't submit to a guy that she out earns, but then why in the hell did you marry your husband then if you were already out earning him?

After a time my ex's business partner (a boyhood friend since age 10) in the nightclub royally messed him over financially. A long story.

Furthermore, if your husband was so "experienced" how did he lose his money? How in the hell would an "experienced" entrepreneur end up royalled screwed over in such a fashion? Did he not know how to protect himself and his investment? If he was so "experienced", I would think he would have correct?

Then on TOP of this, not only does he lose his business, but this "experienced" guy doesn't have the knowledge to start another one? Or at least get a well-paying JOB using his networks, thus, he has to live off of you for 15 years?

Why would you allow a man to live off of you for 15 years if you are ONLY attracted to leaders with experience?

Guys, this is why you do NOT take advice from women on the topic of dating and relationships seriously. This woman is completely and utterly hypocritical and contradicts the fvck out of herself.

 

[BeExcellent]

Tenacity nothing is out of round with what I said. A 17 year relationship can't be boiled down in a forum, which has become patently obvious.

We divorced due to issues between us and did so amicably. We are great friends and parents. We have no issues so what anyone else thinks doesn't matter. We are cool with how things are and yes he still wants me back. Again all the reasons and the history can't be boiled down here and it was a mistake to go into details about it. Point taken as far as that is concerned.

And now back to the thread...

What I am saying about a man's looks is totally congruent with what Zekko, Samspade and others have repeated ad nauseum. My ex is great with the ladies. Always was, always will be. He reminds me of the "Most Interesting Man in the World" guy. He is a blast to be around. He can get the attention of pretty women and outcompete guys who are better looking and much younger. He has great game in SS terms. He has always had that ability since I've known him. So that alone blows up the whole argument that looks are the most important thing. They aren't.

And no way will I date someone I out earn ever again. It has been my experience that if I out earn a guy then I know more than he does in many areas of life and I know how to make better decisions than he does in many areas of life (or I wouldn't be more successful than him.)

In relationship I prefer to be led and I will defer to someone capable of leading in the relationship and in life. That way he is happy and I am happy. It's silly to ridicule me for understanding that is the way things work. There are plenty of threads about that on here. Do you want a woman who thinks (or worse KNOWS) she is more capable than you are? I doubt it. I happen to be extremely capable. I need someone more so if I am going to go to the trouble of dating when I have kids, business travel, aging parents and so forth to deal with already.

The men I am currently conversant with or dating all meet the criteria I prefer. One is a financial planner for those with high net worth, one a physician, one a TV producer and one a businessman in the film industry. They are all good solid successful men. They are each attractive and handsome in their own way but none of them is going to be on the cover of GQ. All are highly ambitious, all are knowledgeable in business and life. Each is an experienced leader in his chosen field. They each find me "in their league" if you will. And nope. No sleeping together at this point. Getting to know someone for me (and them) at this point in life is about connection and compatibility. The physical will only evolve once the field has narrowed to one that I am serious about (and he about me). They may date others aside from me. None of my business. That doesn't concern me because it will all evolve organically. If I like someone better and wish to be more exclusive I'll distance myself or cut contact with the others. They will do the same. No big deal.

We are all entitled to our personal preferences. You have yours; don't get all offended that I am plainspoken about mine.

Lampoon me all you like. It doesn't change the truth or alter who I am or who anyone else is. I am the type of quality woman quality guys would love to have. I know that.

How silly to say women have no place advising men in relationship. Women are 50% of the people in heterosexual relationships. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how to be a man. I'm not one. But I can certainly tell you what women look for in a man, because I am a woman.

Looks are not the end all be all. Many men have said that already but if a man has nothing more than looks to offer then I can see that being problematic for him. If a man has only looks to offer then yes, as others have said, its back to the drawing board. Women want more than just looks. Let me qualify that statement.

Quality women want more than looks. My best girlfriend of 30 years valued education most highly in a man. She has her MBA. She refused to date anyone without an advanced degree for the same reasons I refuse to date someone I out earn. She married a PhD in physics who also holds a masters in psychology and is a Lt. Col. in the reserves. She adores him for his brains and finds him physically appealing...but she didn't care how good looking a guy was if they didn't have the education level she wanted, Next.

 

[Stagger Lee]

This is a great debate, do you guys mind if I join in ?



This here I agree with my boy Stagger Lee 100%. It's Looks, Personality and Finances, you want to be efficient in ALL of them (at least a 7 out of 10 give or take) but Looks comes first unless you have some sort of ENORMOUS advantage such as being an A or B list celebrity, or you have significant amounts of money, or you have some type of over the top personality.

None of these are things that can be taught by a seduction guru or PUA, which I think most are scumbags anyway and prey on men with low confidence as well as other insecurities to sell their bullshyt material.



If you are UGLY it doesn't matter what you say or how funny you think you are, you aren't getting anywhere. If she looks at you and says, "He's cute," now the Personality and the remaining things can come in to close the deal, but in order to START the "conversation" you are going to have to come to the table with some sort of decency in the Looks Department which I say needs to be at least a 6 out of 10.

Unless a guy is deformed or disabled in some type of way, he can fix up his looks even if he's OLDER. Having wrinkles won't make you ugly, if you remain fit in the gym, dress nice, keep yourself groomed, etc.

Tenacity you get what I'm saying. I knew at least one guy on here would see it. You hit of most my points and there's no need for me to really add more to it. Some guys here make it sound like being aged past your mid 30's is advantage itself when it virtually never is. Aging past your prime in mid to late 20's is a huge obstacle. Then they claim personality can compensate for insufficient looks...besides personality being intertwined with looks/appearance anyway, personality generally doesn't compensate for looks. Personality can make you likable and can increase attractiveness or kill attraction/interest, but it doesn't create attraction that isn't already there created by looks/appearance.

BeExcellent, your ex has an attractive face to women. That's why he was always able to attract women and why they even care about his personality.

Of course you are a hypergamous woman and you don't want just looks. You want looks first then money, a certain level of personality and xyz. But that doesn't negate the fact that you women want a high level of looks You think because you have money, or a certain education the man must have equal or more. Well there's no reason that should be, since men don't care about your money much and they sure aren't going to freeload off you even if they want to like women do.

 

[Tenacity]

Tenacity nothing is out of round with what I said.

Lol, I clearly broke down how you were hypocritical and contradicted yourself.

....My ex is great with the ladies. Always was, always will be. He reminds me of the "Most Interesting Man in the World" guy.....So that alone blows up the whole argument that looks are the most important thing. They aren't.

The guy either has great looks or a very good personality, because YOU said he was broke and living off of you for 15 years, so it can't be his "leadership" and "great business/financial skills" that are attracting women.

You could be a 3 in Finances and maybe a 5 in Looks, but if you are a 9 in Personality you would STILL be able to build a quality plate portfolio. BTW, you never read me say anything about "looks" being the most important thing, I said they are the door opener. A guy can slide through with being NO LESS than a 4 in Looks (even though I prefer guys try to be a 6). If the guy is a 2 in Looks he better be a fvcking A-List Celebrity or RICH, or he's done.

The men I am currently conversant with or dating all meet the criteria I prefer. One is a financial planner for those with high net worth, one a physician, one a TV producer and one a businessman in the film industry. They are all good solid successful men. They are each attractive and handsome in their own way but none of them is going to be on the cover of GQ. All are highly ambitious, all are knowledgeable in business and life. Each is an experienced leader in his chosen field. They each find me "in their league" if you will. And nope. No sleeping together at this point.

You are full of shyt lol. If these guys fit the criteria you claim you want, then why aren't you with ANY of those guys then? Based on your description, those are the Top 1% of guys in the damn country, and you aren't sleeping with any of them nor committed to any of them? You are instead on a damn Manosphere board for Men, trying to give gynocentric like advice to Men for dating and relationships? You are full of shyt lol.

How silly to say women have no place advising men in relationship. Women are 50% of the people in heterosexual relationships. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how to be a man. I'm not one. But I can certainly tell you what women look for in a man, because I am a woman.

And 90% of what a woman TELLS a man that she wants, is complete bullshyt. From the "just be yourself" crap, to the "treat her how a woman wants to be treated" crap, to the "be a nice guy" crap, 90% of what a woman TELLS a man in relation to dating, relationship or advice on women in general, is bullshyt.

If a man wants to understand dating, women and relationships, he should look to a source that's not founded and grounded in Feminism and Gynocentrism. Unfortunately today, the only place you can find that is the Manosphere as most MALE "dating counselors", dating shows, church Pastors, dating books, family members, your Father (if he's even around), your Mother, etc., are all mainly founded and grounded in Feminism and Gynocentrism.

Quality women want more than looks.

I knew it wouldn't be long before the mythical super, duper, high-quality woman was mentioned. You aren't her, your friend isn't her...no chick is her. She doesn't exist sweet heart lol. ALL chicks are fvcked up, as a Man, you just have to choose the one that's not as fvcked up as others to try and make something "work".

 

[Tenacity]

Some guys here make it sound like being aged past your mid 30's is advantage itself when it virtually never is. Aging past your prime in mid to late 20's is a huge obstacle. Then they claim personality can compensate for insufficient looks...besides personality being intertwined with looks/appearance anyway, personality generally doesn't compensate for looks. Personality can make you likable and can increase attractiveness or kill attraction/interest, but it doesn't create attraction that isn't already there created by looks/appearance.

I totally agree. You see there's some sections of the Manosphere that are programmed by the PUA community. The mantra of the PUA community is that you can be BROKE as shyt, UGLY as shyt, but if you just say the right thing in the right way, you can lead her into sexual state and obtain a one night stand.

Complete and utter hogwash that's sold to guys because, most guys are LAZY and refuse to do the real WORK to make/keep themselves attractive, such as working out, eating right, making the career/business/investment moves to keep your money right, etc., etc. Most guys are LAZY and would rather hear someone tell them that they can be fat, broke, and ugly, and still attract that HB8.

It's just like the fitness industry, most people are Lazy, so that's why "fat burner pills" are promoted as much as they are to these idiots who think they can POP a pill and that will "burn the fat off". They don't want to eat right, eat less, workout more, do high intensity/hard a.ss cardio, etc., because they are Lazy.

 

[ChrisFloyd]

They don't want to eat right, eat less, workout more, do high intensity/hard a.ss cardio, etc., because they are Lazy.

Maybe because they don't want to feel bloated.

 

[Tenacity]

Maybe because they don't want to feel bloated.

Ha! What can I say...if you want the GAIN you must endure the PAIN lol.

 

[Poonani Maker]

I don't deny that this has been your reality, but many of us have experienced the opposite effect as we have grown older. Some of us have grown value as we've gotten older, which helps. If you don't progress, women may overlook you as not being successful - if you're in the same place status wise at 40 as you were at 24, say. Or maybe if you haven't stayed in shape and let yourself go. Or maybe if you were a complete superstud when you were younger and had no place to go but down. Those are all possible cases where aging might result in less success with women.

As I said, many of us have experienced increased attraction from women as we've aged. Maybe we've grown confidence, we're more fit, we're more smooth, are in positions of authority, maybe we just have a bigger wallet. If you are experiencing less attraction, you would be in the best position to theorize as to why.

I am "more smooth," because of all the sex I've gotten. I can speak sex with clothes on, and women FEEL "as if" we are already naked in bed, even though we are plainly clothed at work, grocery store, wherever. I'm always slutty Man, and some will be turned off, but if you are subtle about it and she speaks about a "bush" or whatever, you make a play on words, she smiles, she make more innuendos, more is allowed, then more is allowed, and you're fvcking her, even though she may be MY AGE...it's usually easier if she's closer to my age these days, but young ones are fishable yet still, and a friend of mine who's damn near 60 is still on with the early 20 po0n.

 

[BeExcellent]

Everything I stated about who I am and the social circles in which I exist are true. I'm from an affluent family full of lawyers, doctors, business people and success. I'm also physically in great shape and blessed with a pretty face & great figure. I've recently decided to explore some dating options from my social network. I'm not going to argue about that stuff anymore. It's silly & pointless and doesn't change any of the facts I stated. I've acknowledged that the 17 year LTR cannot be described in a forum with all its complexities.

Stagger let's assume your premise is correct about aging & looks being the biggest thing. I agree with Tenacity that is an "in" or a starting point, but as far as it being the most important thing I disagree with that strongly as do many men who have posted.

You are going to behave in a way that assumes your assertion to be true anyhow so best to try and help you where you are. Below are some things that put you way up in the competition for ladies: I am going to assume you get the importance of good style and great grooming.

1. Learn to dance very well, preferably latin or ballroom. Women love a great dancer no matter what he looks like. Bonus is that this is a natural means for kino, charm, sexuality and leadership (since you should lead in the dance) to be demonstrated. I used to be the wing-woman for a lanky guy who had a dynamite personality and decent looks (but nothing exceptional) at the club. He could dance!! We would hit the floor after the band warmed up and dance several songs...then I would go hang out with my ex or my friends (my ex is also a brilliant dancer) and my buddy literally could pick ANY woman in the place. He got lots of women into bed this way. They all wanted him because a.) he was a great dancer, and b.) he was seen dancing with a gorgeous woman. If you have a pretty/sexy woman friend you can learn with or who can wing woman for you this will raise your value to other girls.

2. Get involved in charity work. This is one of the best places to meet top notch women who you are not going to run into in a club because they will be in such an environment infrequently if at all. Many celebrities and successful people participate in and attend these type of events and so do lots of movers, shakers and beautiful people. Be seen as their peer (and do some good, however small or large the amount for a worthy cause.) If you don't meet women, meet some other guys in such a setting. Perhaps the guys can introduce you. George Clooney met his wife at such an event. She turned him down at least twice by the way but he was persistent.

3. Find some activities you can do that are social that women can also do. I play golf, shoot skeet, and play tennis. I also coach my teenage son & daughter in soccer when my travel schedule allows. Perhaps little league or weight training are areas you can help others learn. You can meet good people in any of these pursuits. Conversational topic built right in.

4. If you are a gamer you can meet some women through gaming in the interactive platforms like Destiny or so on. Again in this environment you can establish what a cool person you are first by getting to know someone independent of what you look like.

5. If you have a dog, go somewhere like a dog park or somewhere cool to walk your dog. This is a great way to interact with other dog lovers.

So there are five concrete things you can do to increase your appeal under your assumption that your looks are not enough. They all take some effort and time on your part but you can find good girls doing any or all of the above.

Smile and be warm. Like yourself. If you struggle with that then work on yourself. Inner game (as described on this forum) becomes very important after all the initial phases of getting to know someone have passed.

 

[BeExcellent]

As to Tenacity's attacks I stated above that my ex's abilities (or lack thereof) came to light AFTER we were married. So after the whole attraction process was complete. As to what happened, I could have bailed right away. I didn't. My ex benefitted tremendously from being married to me both financially, socially and legally (my Dad didn't charge him for any of the legal fees such work normally entails.) He and my Dad get along well. It find it interesting that the posts seem to make you angry. You can believe whatever you like. Success involves certain ways of thinking. Without proper thinking success is very unlikely. Think of it like gravity. You can believe in gravity or not...but if you step off a 10 story building you are just as dead no matter what you believe. Belief doesn't alter truth.

It's easy to sail along in life without adversity. My ex unfortunately did not handle adversity well and he readily admits he didn't know as much as HE thought he did as his younger self and this was to his detriment. Attacking me doesn't change any facts or alter what happened. But it does say a great deal about some of the attitudes about women lurking here. They aren't positive.

If you are going to have an "us" versus "them" adversarial attitude toward women you will not succeed. That attitude broadcasts itself and is a huge turn off. So is insecurity. Avoid those two things.

 

[Stagger Lee]

(

Stagger let's assume your premise is correct about aging & looks being the biggest thing. I agree with Tenacity that is an "in" or a starting point, but as far as it being the most important thing I disagree with that strongly as do many men who have posted.

You're not getting it. Having an 'in' or 'starting point' is almost everything. It is the attraction and unless the woman is gold digging, you have to have attraction for there to be sexual interests.. Without an in or starting point females just aren't going to be receptive to most anything else about you nor perceive anything else about you in a positive light.

You are going to behave in a way that assumes your assertion to be true anyhow so best to try and help you where you are. Below are some things that put you way up in the competition for ladies: I am going to assume you get the importance of good style and great grooming.

That's just you assuming . How would I know whether a woman is attracted to me visually (and otherwise) until I've gotten feedback? I always go in thinking she is or should be attracted. Your list of places and activities doesn't make much difference. A guy is either considered attractive or unattractive where ever he is. Your list is more applicable to a woman looking for a relationship.

So there are five concrete things you can do to increase your appeal under your assumption that your looks are not enough. They all take some effort and time on your part but you can find good girls doing any or all of the above.

You are just assuming the conclusion that those things will overcome a female deeming a guy's looks aren't attractive enough. I've already rejected that conclusion.

Like yourself. If you struggle with that then work on yourself. Inner game (as described on this forum) becomes very important after all the initial phases of getting to know someone have passed.

Inner game is a meaningless term for initial attraction. Again you are assuming your conclusion.

You are very condescending, not to mention have an inflate opinion of yourself and talk as if I'm some 13 year old boy that doesn't know anything and has no experience.

 

[Charmaine]

Stagger Lee, if you have already made up your mind that attractive looks are the first and foremost the most important piece of the puzzle to open the door for any potential with a female, what do you expect to get from this thread? Advice on how to make yourself better looking despite your age?

 

[hithard]

This is a great debate, do you guys mind if I join in ?

Unless a guy is deformed or disabled in some type of way, he can fix up his looks even if he's OLDER. Having wrinkles won't make you ugly, if you remain fit in the gym, dress nice, keep yourself groomed, etc.

This isn't agreeing with Stagger at all. His premise is that you can't date or get younger women as you age. Now the thread has flipped to attraction. I agree with the above but I know plenty of attractive men who flop and lose the girl because they can't talk to women. Looks is a part of the complete package.
In my opinion Stagger is in a rut.

 

[Stagger Lee]

This isn't agreeing with Stagger at all. His premise is that you can't date or get younger women as you age. Now the thread has flipped to attraction. I agree with the above but I know plenty of attractive men who flop and lose the girl because they can't talk to women. Looks is a part of the complete package.
In my opinion Stagger is in a rut.

Well Tenacity and I may not be in total agreement but partial agreement. My premise is it becomes much more difficult and sometimes even impossible for many older men to date younger and attractive women as they age past a certain point. My premise is really that looks is attraction so as you age and lose looks so do you lose attraction. Of course an attractive man can lose a woman, but the unattractive man won't even have her to lose as he lost her at first sight.

 

[Tenacity]

I just think at the end of the day, arguing over if Looks or Personality is more "important", is like arguing if your arm or leg is more important.

I honestly don't know if you can measure which is more important, what I can tell you though is that if you look like Quasimodo no matter WHAT your personality is, you are going to have extreme difficulty STARTING attraction. And if your personality is as dead as a doorknob, you are going to have difficulty KEEPING attraction. Which one holds more weight is up for debate, but it shouldn't matter as you should be striving to be the best you can be in both.

Looks, Personality and Finances, seek to be a "7" in all of them and you shouldn't have an issue starting attraction, keeping attraction and building plates as long as you put in the time into meeting women.

 

[hithard]

It's not arguing for one or another. It's being well rounded and working on your hook. Stagger is missing a few elements to his current game. Of course you won't bang every 20 yo. But you will get a damn lot of them.

 

[Stagger Lee]

The reason I think it matters whether personality/game affects attraction much, is because there's no sense endlessly trying to change your personality (often to one less effective and less psychological healthy), chasing your tail, and worrying and beating yourself up about how you approached a woman and 'failed' to get attraction like PUA advocates if personality/game had little to nothing to do with it. Better to accept reality than fight it.

How you can tell if it is personality or looks is in being able to read women when they are attracted or not attracted and situations. If a woman looks disappointed when she first sees you, or is just a cold fish and doesn't seem accepting of anything you say, then it's obvious it's a visual looks thing. If you've been gaming the same way for years and what was working before isn't working at all anymore, it's likely aging has lowered your physical attractiveness.

 

[ubercat]

Another variable could be the market. I ve just tip toed back on to the scene after 10+ years. Certainly OLD has deteriorated during that time. If u really think u need to improve yr looks check out guru1000 s HB 7-9 challenge thread.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Another variable could be the market. I ve just tip toed back on to the scene after 10+ years. Certainly OLD has deteriorated during that time. If u really think u need to improve yr looks check out guru1000 s HB 7-9 challenge thread.

Yes it is a variable as it seems women have gotten more hypergamous seemingly nonstop the past several years. The way I see it though, women can only be as hypergamous as the market allows them to be. Women even old hags can demand more looks, more youthfulness and even more personality, and I'm just not cutting the muster anymore. And as much as it sucks, I just don't think it's worth the extraordinary effort required for mostly worthless women. I just realized I'm starting to sound like one of the MGTOW guys. I never thought it'd come to that lol.