when she accuses you of making her feel guilty

[much2learn]

Hey guys, had an experience the other night. I caught this chick trying to back out of a committment, and I called her on it (pointedly but not rudely). She accused me of trying to make her feel guilty. How would you typically handle something like this? What would your response be to this kind of accusation?

 

[BobbDobbs]

Her assessment is 100% accurate, and also irrelevant. Girls with high interest levels wouldn't try to back out of a date. Any arguing with them is unlikely to raise IL. I'm too much a novice at this to suggest methods to repair IL. But I think that's more what you should focus on, rather than bothering with a comeback to a statement rooted in declining IL.

 

[chicago#one]

It Depends

Was it plans for a first date? NEXT.

A third date? Merits some, but not too much discussion. If she can't stick to a commitment and be up front, big red flag.

In a STR/LTR? Man, you got a problem on your hands.

 

[trajhenkhet]

The golden principle: Actions speak louder than words.

If she really felt that you did her wrong, the plug would have been pulled. Be wary here my friend. Something isn't reading right...

 

[much2learn]

Actually I was in the process of ending the relationship. I had sent her an email explaining to her that her behavior really wasn't acceptable. It was not an ugly email, I just felt compelled to call her on her inconsistencies between her words and her actions. It was never a LTR or even a STR, just we had known each other for a few weeks and twice I had tried to get up with her, and twice she had circumstances which prevented her from doing so (maybe legitimate maybe not, but never did she counter-offer, and we all know what that means.)

It's interesting that she never denied or tried to argue any of the reasons I gave her as to why she won't be hearing from me again. All she seemed able to come up with was "what right do you have trying to make me feel guilty".... again, an amusing response when all I really did was explain the inconsistencies between her words and her actions.

Since the relationship is over I really don't care what she thinks. I'm not going to argue with her over whether or not I was trying to make her feel guilty. But I suspect that she isn't the first girl to use this argument, and I want to be prepared for the future when no doubt I will probably face it again.

So, how should one react when a girl pulls this?

 

[Ser_i]

next! if she has any feelings she'll come back to you, but than again she'll have to hope you'll have time for her

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Originally posted by much2learn
Hey guys, had an experience the other night. I caught this chick trying to back out of a committment, and I called her on it (pointedly but not rudely). She accused me of trying to make her feel guilty. How would you typically handle something like this? What would your response be to this kind of accusation?

All it sounds like is that you were pointing something out that was obvious to you. Now if she was trying to hide something, she could possibly feel guilty, but that wasn't your fault. It was all because of her actions.

Maybe you should ask her why HER actions seem to make her feel guilty? I'm sure you'll get some interesting insight into her psyche.

 

[lollipop]

Tell her she's feeling guilty because she's a slut.

 

[bp1974]

You've pointed out what you don't like about her behaviour - how she feels about it is her business.

You could have said the same thing to another girl and she wouldn't feel guilty.

When she says 'You shouldn't make me feel guilty" she's really telling you that you shouldn't call her out for acting the way that girls act.

There's a girl in my office who went on an internet date with a guy last week, and the other day she was complaining that he was still emailing her. I asked her if she'd told him she wasn't interested, and she said no, she'd just been unenthusiastic in her emails and was hoping he'd take the hint. She just didn't get why that wasn't working - that's how girls are. When I told her to just say "Thanks, but no thanks", the other girl chimed in with "She doesn't owe him anything!". I then told them that it's not about owing anyone, it's about being a grownup (these girls are late twenties), and the quickest way to get someone to go away is to politely tell them to go away. She did it, it worked, she's happy, he thanked her for being straight with him.

I'm sure there was a point to my story.. Oh yeah, when you call immature girls on their normal idiot behaviour, they don't understand why you don't like what they're doing, and think you're just trying to make them feel guilty.

So just tell her, how she feels is her problem, not yours.

bp1974

 

[Dee-Zy]

Originally posted by much2learn
It was not an ugly email, I just felt compelled to call her on her inconsistencies between her words and her actions.

NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!!!

Call a girl on things like that. OF COURSE they are inconsistent - They are women!!! To say that is like going up to a soldier N say - you kill human lives - you take tha life of men and women that has family and friends who will never see life the same way ever again. Lives of individuals - lives that will NEVER exist again under any form. EVER.

What u see is what u keep to yourself. No good can come out on call'N a woman's action - let alone ANYBODY's action. To be able to read somebody is a gift - but it can easily be a curse. U need to use it in the right way.

About the lack of counter offer - not every interested women counter offer. It all depends on how she was brought up, her values, how she was raised, educated - their background.

As to what answer - Just say 'How am I make'N u feel guilty?' in an offended type of way.

She will break it down N next thing u know - u will be arguing about something else.


GHOST

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Originally posted by Dee-Zy
NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!!!

Call a girl on things like that.

I do just the opposite. I call them on it and if they don't see the folly in their ways, I just tell them that I'm not interested in playing that game and tell them to call me when they figure things out.

The longest it ever took was about a month for one to call back. I told her that we could talk about it later and that I'd call her. However, by the time she called I had lost interest and had moved on so I never returned her call.

I wonder if she got the hint...

 

[Grey Fox]

First off, if they are feeling guilty its probably because they know they are being a little weasel(So long as your not trying to mind **** them with guilt.) You can call a woman out on when her words and actions don't sync. I don't want to hear of anyone telling someone thats a no-no. If she is a liar, she's a liar. If she is playing games, just tell her the jig is up and your throw with her. The way I see it, your the one who does all the work and puts down the money to do things. You approach her for the number, then call for the date, set the date up and pay for it. And when she gets caught trying to play the proffessional dater, or gives you the run around while dangling the "another date" infront of you. Well if you don't call her out you shouldn't walk on two feet, you should get on the ground and wear a leash, because my friend your a dog. You can be jerked around, choked, kicked and made to do tricks, and like a dog you will wag your tail and wait for the next master to come along and do it all over again. Call'em out, they will call you out, secondly if its over, you need to burn bridges hard, otherwise you set yourself up for one-itis.

-Grey Fox

 

[TesuqueRed]

Originally posted by much2learn
Actually I was in the process of ending the relationship.

Later you say there was no LTR or STR--which means, you were acquaintances who went on a few dates--there really wasn't anything to end, IMO.

I had sent her an email explaining to her that her behavior really wasn't acceptable. It was not an ugly email, I just felt compelled to call her on her inconsistencies between her words and her actions. It was never a LTR or even a STR, just we had known each other for a few weeks and twice I had tried to get up with her, and twice she had circumstances which prevented her from doing so (maybe legitimate maybe not, but never did she counter-offer, and we all know what that means.)

<shakes head> yikes. Ok, sure, it made you feel good to do that. And talking all night long with girl on the phone sure feels great to an AFC--your judgment is not working right on this.

To her--and to every friend she talks to--you became a confirmed, certifiable freak--weird and/or psycho. I suppose I gotta give a stab at saying why...

We occasionally (on this forum) go over why telling them off in situations like this is a bad idea---I haven't felt I quite figured out why I feel it's a gut-level bad move to do in the past, but maybe I got it now:

It reveals that you're not socially adept at reading situations or acting appropriately. That is--she gave subtle clues---read: TEST!---that social losers or the clueless won't pick up on (proving their loser-ness or cluelessness) while more socially adept types will pick up on it and gracefully drop it. That needs repeating: you gracefully drop it. This shows class to them.

Pointing out her unacceptable behavior (I didn't get that she really did anything unacceptable from your post, btw--unless she did more than what you posted about...) -- is tightassed and graceless. It's really not your place, IMO. Her being evasive or flakey are all common things--we may not like them, and they may fall short of direct, adult communication, but it's quite normal.

In fact, I'm beginning to think it's the primary form of communication we use---subtext, hints, body language, tone of voice, behavior, action, etc. Not direct declarations.

And most people expect you to understand or pick up on this perfectly valid form of communication. If you don't, people find you clueless and an annoyance. And they're right, too.

That's the test you failed with that e-mail, even if you did read her lack of interest clearly. The proper response would've been to quietly drop it and next her.

It's interesting that she never denied or tried to argue any of the reasons I gave her as to why she won't be hearing from me again.

You wanted a debate? She simply wanted to end any contact with someone going weird on her---which, btw, she probably felt quite relieved at not hearing from you again.

This event would, incidently, absolutely propel her into going off on how weird and bizarre you are to all her girlfriends. I hope for your sake that your social circles don't intersect in the least.

All she seemed able to come up with was "what right do you have trying to make me feel guilty".... again, an amusing response when all I really did was explain the inconsistencies between her words and her actions.

She's right.

Since the relationship is over I really don't care what she thinks. I'm not going to argue with her over whether or not I was trying to make her feel guilty. But I suspect that she isn't the first girl to use this argument, and I want to be prepared for the future when no doubt I will probably face it again.

Keep pulling this stunt and you will guarantee you will encounter it again and again.

So, how should one react when a girl pulls this?

Not the way you did---I'm completely with DeeZy on this.

Just next'em without the pyrotechnics, Ok? Be gracious about it, quit playing Miss Manners---that's it!---that's how you're coming across---as a prissy, humorless and clueless Miss Manners. Sorry dude, that's just how it appears. Get the self-righteous stick outta your tail and read between the lines and respond appropriately next time. Then you won't ever have to deal with the "how dare you make me feel guilty" line again.

 

[much2learn]

Howdy Mr. TesuqueRed!

I enjoy reading your thoughts and typically find you are dead-on in most of your posts. However here we disagree.

To me, this is about self-respect. I don't want someone to say one thing to me and then do something else. When I wrote her the email, I told her what I saw. It's not like I called her a lying b*itch-wh*re.

What I found somewhat amusing is that she didn't really refute any of my observations; instead she just attempts to accuse me of making her feel guilty. I forget what this is called in the laws of logical argumentation but it is definitely one of the logical fallacies.

Did you read the post by Mr. Fingers entitled "Epic Tale of Transformation"? As I recall he had to do the same kind of thing on a French chick and got some very positive results. My situation was a little different but similar enough to involve the same principles.

 

[iqqi]

you have much2learn ^^^^^

 

[TesuqueRed]

I hear you, Much2Learn---I know that argument. It has merits. But something in my gut tells me something is wrong-headed about it. I can't get away from that feeling and I think it's for the reasons I stated before.

Iqqi, if she wasn't merely making a pun, might have some insight how it appears from the other side. Note--this isn't necessarily "taking advise from a woman" that some here disparage blindly, this would be a simple perspective shift of seeing how it appears to them. Some of the best posts are from women on ********-translations, game-breakdowns and how guys appear to them in various situations. And how any guy appears who does something like what you did could be quite revealing from their perspective.

I can understand the self-respect argument. It also has merits. And it's an important subject--you will absolutely do what you feel you need to do. You will have to work out a good deal of it for yourself. In that light, the confrontation thing was justified.

When I first joined here I remember a thread about those who don't get much respect or need to establish self-respect (and get others to notice) are those who have low respect (or LR, LSR?? whatevr..) But people I've seen who have it ALREADY don't do those sort of things.

Granted--people don't pull crap on them much (or seem to)--so they don't have to confront.

But I think you will accomplish more by reading her low IL earlier and simply moving on graciously, and by assuming you have self-respect and acting like it---which means not hanging around people who don't respect you or have low IL.

I went through a phase of quiet confrontation with certain people that were dismissive or treated me like crap. They just learned to be more careful around me, but I didn't get the sense that the fundamental view we had of each other had changed.

I couldn't make them respect me, I could, through effort, make them pay a price for behaving badly.

At the end of the day, it wasn't worth it. Too much effort, too much energy spent for low returns---IMO.

Someone made the point--and for me, it's one of the fundamental points:

If you're not wanted somewhere, leave.

This isn't running. I can and I have learned how to confront. I will do it if and when necessary--usually it's a single event-specific and spontaneous thing--but most times it's a matter of figuring out where you stand ahead of time and sticking around or leaving where you're not wanted.

It's a choice--stick around people who are fun and engaging and welcome your presence (this includes your job, too...) and give no energy otherwise. Confronting isn't necessary, then, except for one-off type of incidents..

 

[iqqi]

Iqqi, if she wasn't merely making a pun

i was, i was, u got me there.

might have some insight how it appears from the other side

actually in this situation i think tesque said it best, "when you are not wanted somewhere, leave."

so simple. so true.

its not like you have that much invested in her. she could have just been blowing u off because she wasn't interested. but maybe that was NOT the case, now you'll never know because you burned that bridge, in my opinion, prematurely. she wasn't your girlfriend, so it really was not your place to check her about anything.

no offense, and no matter if this was reversed and a girl did that to a guy, but M2L, you kinda came across as pyscho. definately NOT easygoing.

 

[iqqi]

forgot to say something importante:

"if you are not wanted, leave."

the great thing about this is, if you ARE wanted, they WILL come back for you: chase YOU!

 

[Bonhomme]

Iqqi's right.

If they want you, they will come back. Very true.

Just recognize it when they do. It won't always be blatantly obvious: she might still want you to make the plans.

I pulled away after one GF got petty -- made a big deal about some insignificant bull****. She stonewalled me for a bit, so I pulled away even further. Then one Friday night she left a message saying she "missed" me. She still wasn't suggesting we get together, but, in retrospect, she wanted me to make such plans badly. I didn't realize how she felt until she had given up on me. Often a gal won't "stick her neck out."

One more thing for you to learn.

Your situation may be different. One way to find out is to pull away, and see if she pulls in.

 

[much2learn]

Re: Iqqi's right.

Originally posted by Bonhomme
I pulled away after one GF got petty -- made a big deal about some insignificant bull****. She stonewalled me for a bit, so I pulled away even further. Then one Friday night she left a message saying she "missed" me. She still wasn't suggesting we get together, but, in retrospect, she wanted me to make such plans badly. I didn't realize how she felt until she had given up on me. Often a gal won't "stick her neck out."

No offense, but your gf strikes me as the kind of person who is unable to ever admit she has done anything wrong. When a person commits an error, later realizes it, and then fails to accept any responsibility for it (such as apologizing), that is a HUGE red flag in my book.

A woman who cannot admit she has done wrong is the kind of woman to avoid. Such women will usually have the attitude that they are always the victim, which makes for a miserable relationship. My own mom was like this, so I know what I'm talking about.