What is intimacy? (after redpill)

[jhonny9546]

Hi everyone, this might seem like an easy question, but it's actually not.

In short, if you've taken the Red Pill, what is healthy intimacy?

The biggest problem with the Red Pill is that it tells you to make improvements, and then, if you make further improvements, your wife or current girlfriend will respond in an insecure way.

So, to give a very simple example, let's say you've started going to the gym and your gf starts responding insecurely to your improvements.
She starts doing sh1t tests, saying you shouldn't go to the gym so much and that you're neglecting your time with her.

Another simple example is that maybe you find time for another hobby, and she, still very insecure, starts doing sh1t tests, saying you're never home or that you haven't done certain things.

We know very well that these are responses women make. The more insecure they are, the more they fear losing you, and the more they will do it.

In fact, if you've ever had a relationship with a borderline woman, you might have noticed that they always did this. Extremely blatantly and exaggeratedly.

Now all that's required is to maintain the frame, that is, not to give in to these demands or these sh1t tests from the woman, but rather to assume a frame and deny it. Then wait for her to calm down, make peace with herself, and adapt to this new you.

Very well, so far the process is working. This is what Redpill teaches us, and it helps a man maintain control and the frame of a relationship and keep a woman interested.


That said, what is true intimacy?
How could that happen in a relationship like that?

If you're in a relationship with a woman and you have to worry about whether or not she's telling you the truth or not, or if she's attacking you simply out of insecurities, or if you have to monitor whether or not she's saying things that might seem like a shi1 test...
that sounds like a job and not a relationship.

So it means that everything she says that's a sh1t test will increasingly act as a barrier and a shield between you and her.

In this case, if intimacy is true honesty, integrity, and everything else that's healthy about a person, the fact that she's constantly skipping ahead or isn't sincere about what she sayz, and the fact youve ton respond to her in a given way (IGDAF), is actually killing your intimacy, the intimate ability to truly communicate with each other.

Although the behavior recommended by the Red Pill to maintain the frame always puts the man in a position of power, this kills intimacy and never allows you to connect with the woman.

Don't get me wrong, the woman Will submit, but at which cost?

After you've learned everything there is to know about Redpill and after having had both experiences with women, what does intimacy a man enjoys in a relationship really mean to you?

Although it's true that we look at what he does, not what he says, at this point, what remains for us to understand is that with a woman, there will never be true intimacy in the relationship?

Obviously, we're not interested in the intimacy inherent in a trauma-bonding and toxic relationship, but here we're looking for the intimacy of a healthy relationship with a true connection between the two.

I'm sure you know what I'm talking about and what I mean by healthy, after all the experiences you've had in your life.


Ps a scheme of what it could look like visually

 

[plumber]

there are different personality types. your describing the interactions that some have. the deep root cause is bad selection and lack of knowledge of red flags, or ignoring them.

what you describe is the only way to manage in some personality types. it works. it requires health and knowledge on the mans part along with much effort. MOST men are not strong enough to do it.

if you want intimacy you MUST select a woman that it is possible with. it is not possible with some types. for the reasons you have explained.

we end up thinking its all women... but... its only all women that we are attracted to. first clue is how they dress.

last point, if you find such intimacy take GREAT care to protect it. keep your own path and do not cause a breach. often when the man has intimacy, he breaks it. because he is not strong enough.

 

[BaronOfHair]

@jhonny9546 "...if you've taken the Red Pill, what is healthy intimacy?"

Peace, comfort, affection, fun, minimal melodrama

 

[The Duke]

Its better to use the redpill teachings to filter out women that aren't appropriate than use them to manage a woman that shouldn't have made the cut to start with. You'll never have peace and you'll grow tired of the constant battle.

As I've gotten older I've realized women are going to be women. You don't get all of the great things we enjoy from them with out a few negative side effects. Pick one that works for you, there are very few good ones out there. First put yourself in a position to receive something great. You aren't ready yet if you are still contemplating red pill truths. I encourge you to push yourself further.

Healthy intimacy for me is respect of my need for freedom, peace, support, good conversation, and the ability to have fun together. If it comes packaged with good looks, ability to cook/clean, and enjoys sex then I'm down. If she can't offer all of those things, then I can't offer long term committment.

 

[DJ Novice]

Beyond raising children, sex, assistance with daily life and companionship, women don’t really offer much value to a man.

Once you become a lot older (I’m 58), you no longer need a woman to have a family with and your sex drive decreases if you are not on TRT. And if you are a lone wolf and are self-sufficient you don’t really need much companionship or help from a woman either.

As @The Duke says, your freedom (financial and personal), ability to live life on your own terms and peace and quiet then become much more important.

Your tolerance for putting up with poor behaviour from women or chasing women who are not that interested in you just to get some ***** becomes very low.

Finances become much more important and you actively avoid living with a woman or get married to minimise any legal risk of financial separation.

You know the red flags important to you and only use women for recreational purposes if they show signs of having these.

You actively cultivate back-up options so you don't fall prey to oneitis, keep your frame and confidence levels and to keep competition anxiety present. How you exercise those options is up to you.

I have one alpha widow I used to date who I know would have me back in a heartbeat if I just said the word. We still keep in touch. You don’t necessarily have to sleep with or date your options as this can become logistically, financially and emotionally exhausting.

Age does have its benefits.

 

[BaronOfHair]

Its better to use the redpill teachings to filter out women that aren't appropriate than use them to manage a woman that shouldn't have made the cut to start with

The irony of Red Pill Theology is that it promises to "free" it's True Believers from "The Matrix", yet chains them by the neck like slave women to another dogma. We've seen a similar cycle rinse and repeat fairly recently...

Hippies of The 1960s rejected the messaging that'd been foisted upon them by Post-War propaganda like Ozzie and Harriet, only to then mistake everything out of Abbie Hoffman and Tom Hayden's mouths for Holy Writ

Today, men have(justifiably )rejected the programming we're received out of Disney and Rom Coms, only to then confuse everything they hear from their favorite content creator with The Word Of God

 

[jhonny9546]

MOST men are not strong enough to do it.

True, but also: most men are not "willing" to do that frequently, sounds good too. (this is me)

often when the man has intimacy, he breaks it. because he is not strong enough.

But I didn't understand this part. How can you break it if the woman in question is already very different from the others?

if you want intimacy you MUST select a woman that it is possible with. it is not possible with some types. for the reasons you have explained.

The first clue is how they dress.

Not in my experience. It's possible that a woman who fits the above is also intimate.
It's very difficult to filter this, but I'm curious to know how you did it.

Peace, comfort, affection, fun, minimal melodrama

So after all this learning, in the end, you're left with things you don't need, because you can simply filter by: does he respect me? And you won't use any tactics.

It's better to use the redpill teachings to filter out women who aren't appropriate than to use them to manage a woman who shouldn't have made the cut to begin with. You'll never have peace and you'll grow tired of the constant battle.

Very well, I see we have a point here!
You perfectly expressed why, even though I'm looking for a healthy relationship, after all, I appreciated the redpill knowledge.

You aren't ready yet if you are still contemplating red pill truths.

We are never ready. All life is a WIP, but to understand where I am at, I would like to have a conversation with you one day (on the phone or video call if you want)

Healthy intimacy for me is respect of my need for freedom, peace, support, good conversation, and the ability to have fun together. If it comes packaged with good looks, ability to cook/clean, and enjoys sex then I'm down. If she can't offer all of those things, then I can't offer long term commitment.

I understand very well what you mean. I know a woman who has everything except what I'm writing in red. (She's a drama queen but provide everything else)

Your tolerance for putting up with poor behavior from women or chasing women who aren't that interested in you just to get some ***** becomes very low.

I've had it very low since I was 23... that's why I stayed away from many potential relationships.
I saw everything as too dramatic...

I have one alpha widow I used to date who I know would have me back in a heartbeat if I just said the word.

How does having one make you feel? Do you use it for your ego?
Just curious to understand.

@BaronOfHair, you mean to find a middle ground.

 

[tesla8520]

@DJ Novice @The Duke Your POV is really interesting.
Do you think you could elaborate on the same thing, but from a female perspective?

I mean, there must be something that a grown woman later in life appreciates just as much as the things you've written for us man

 

[Sega Genesis]

Peace, comfort, affection, fun, minimal melodrama.

There are couples that have all this^^ but still have not achieved true emotional intimacy. There's love respect and happiness, but still a lot of pretending...hiding. Afraid of being truly known for who they are and all they are, at their core -- the good, bad and ugly.

Below describes it perfectly.. It's not easy! As we (many) are wounded, guarded, afraid to be truly "seen" by our partners. So we go through the motions and can be happy, sexually and emotionally attracted...but still lack true intimacy.

>>Intimacy is a deep, multidimensional bond involving total vulnerability—emotional, physical, spiritual, and intellectual "nakedness"—without fear of judgment. It requires intentional and honest communication to create a safe space for trust, where partners feel completely known, accepted, cherished and respected. <<

 

[BaronOfHair]

@Sega Genesis "Afraid of being truly known for who they are and all they are, at their core -- the good, bad and ugly"

There are aspects of ourselves best revealed NOWHERE, outside of perhaps a shrink's office or in a journal. A fella's current squeeze likely isn't eager to hear about that time he shived a Norteno shot caller through the jugular in the showers at Pelican Bay, not out of personal animosity towards said Norteno, but out of sheer cowardice and a dearth of integrity:

He'd run up a debt with La Eme, and they were threatening to gut him alive, unless he carried out an execution on their behalf

 

[RoadKing_Rabbit]

Once you gain knowledge and experience, you can't go back. One of my favorite 'single album' musicians and friend from the 00's wrote in a song,

"And we wave goodbye to our innocence,
And we wave goodbye to our ignorance,
And we wave goodbye to our nursery mindsets
Abandoning cribs of complacence."

Redpill or no redpill, blame or no blame, you've grown out of what you once were and there is no going back. It's your canvas and you've got the brush. If intimacy feels like "work" I don't think you have intimacy in my opinion.

If it feels like a job, it'd better be a job you at least somewhat see value in doing. For example, is this "work" with one plate, GF, FB something that you partway enjoy? Is this "job" going to be building skills that will be useful to you when you find your 'dream job?' Is the "salary" worth your time and effort? Are there other benefits? hehe.

There are compromises and payoffs with anything. I'd disagree that *any* woman we'd want will necessarily be some insufferable walking headache with a hole for our money first and something else second (if we're 'lucky.') I'd also disagree that the 'red pill' is to blame for the difficulty adjusting to new knowledge and having to relearn things. If whiskey were outlawed, we'd always find something else to blame.

The quicker we accept ourselves honestly, both in situation and in what we seek, the quicker we can gain some semblance of agency and control over our lives. This control over our lives just happens to be attractive to women to boot.

 

[Sega Genesis]

A fella's current squeeze likely isn't eager to hear about that time he shived a Norteno shot caller through the jugular in the showers at Pelican Bay, not out of personal animosity towards said Norteno, but out of sheer cowardice and a dearth of integrity:

Agree that's not something to reveal to one's mere "current squeeze" it takes time to build the type of trust (and willingness to be vulnerable) that would warrant that type of disclosure.

But a longer term partner or spouse? Personally I would be open to hearing it and if it's something he's been grappling with emotionally, I would want him to share it, without any fear of judgment.

However as I said, it's not easy and IME most couples in long term relationships won't risk it. Some don't even want that type of closeness and intimacy and that's fine!

I don't think it's a requirement for a happy fulfilling long-term relationship or marriage. As long as they're both on the same emotional page about how much closeness and emotional intimacy they each want and need.

I am watching "Mad Men" right now and thinking of Don Draper and what a great pretender he was! There was so much of himself he kept hidden from his own wife and felt justified in doing so.

Not just the cheating but who he was as a man at his core.

Their marriage was cold, lacking warmth, comfort, happiness, love and anything even resembling intimacy. Similar to my own parent's marriage which also ended in divorce.

Same with Pete Campbell and his wife Trudy. In one episode revealing to Peggy that she knew him better than his own wife! That she was the one he felt comfortable being "seen."

Without fear of judgment.

 

[plumber]

But I didn't understand this part. How can you break it if the woman in question is already very different from the others?

there is a yin and and yang about this. if she is loyal, he will stray. if she is stray, he will be loyal.

the idea is that if she is loyal then also stay loyal.

when she is loyal, you will feel it. your confidence will increase. other women will feel it and want you.

strong men know this and choose what they want. its ok to stray, but understand the choice. loyalty is more rare than extra women.

 

[The Duke]

Agree that's not something to reveal to one's mere "current squeeze" it takes time to build the type of trust (and willingness to be vulnerable) that would warrant that type of disclosure.

But a longer term partner or spouse? Personally I would be open to hearing it and if it's something he's been grappling with emotionally, I would want him to share it, without any fear of judgment.

So when your amazing man of 9yrs tells you he wants to have a 3 some with two hotties half your age, you aren't going to judge him? Like Baron said, "There are aspects of ourselves best revealed NOWHERE". I promise you, there are lots of men who this fantasy appeals to.

I have a hard time believing any sane woman would be okay with that, nor even want to hear something like that. Saying something would cause lots of harm to the relationship.

 

[Sega Genesis]

@The Duke

A sexual fantasy like that might be better off unsaid depending on the woman receiving the information... however if it's an issue he's been grappling with such that Baron described and causing him inner turmoil and/or emotional pain, IF he were open to sharing it with me, I would be open to listening and if possible supporting and comforting. Without negative judgment.

You want to criticize me for that? So be. I think it's a sad day though when men encourage other men to withhold parts of themselves for fear of being negatively judged by the women they claim to love and who love them.

Going back to the threesome fantasy, personally I love sharing sexual fantasies with my SO! If that's his fantasy bring it on... it's just a fantasy ffs.

In my experience sharing sexual fantasies can enhance our sex life not harm it. Same with occasionally watching porn together which I am also very open to and have done. I don't feel threatened or "less than" by any of that.

And yes I am quite well aware men fantasize about threesomes and lots of other things.. so do women!

I realize I'm not your favorite here Duke, but what do you think I've been living under a rock or something? LOL

Apparently you've never had a close intimate relationship wherein openness and sharing personal issues, fantasies whatever was welcome without judgment.

As I said some people/couples don't want or feel comfortable with that type of closeness and intimacy... or fear it, and that's fine to each their own..

You do you.

For me, I wouldn't want a relationship any other way.

 

[BaronOfHair]

@Sega Genesis "And yes I am quite well aware men fantasize about threesomes and lots of other things.. so do women!"

Oh, do you all

In all seriousness, Seg: "I think it's a sad day though when men encourage other men to withhold parts of themselves for fear of being negatively judged by the women they claim to love and who love them"

Agreed, and I never encouraged ANYONE to "withold parts of themselves"... All I'm saying is that some info is most intelligently shared in specific contexts, like a shrink's office or in a journal. Real-life example:

A colleague of mine currently believes he might be gay, isn't finding things in the boudoir with the missus especially exciting, and felt the need to TELL her "I want another dude to do me, while we're still married". The rest of us down at the office didn't need to hear that, and it would've been more pro-social for him to finally decide whether or not he's actually a homosexual, BEFORE he said anything to this poor gal whom he wifed up

 

[Sega Genesis]

I agree Baron, context as well as discretion are important. Absolutely. And not everything shared should be accepted, however....

I was speaking more in the general sense of a woman (girlfriend, wife, close friend) being open-minded, non-judgmental and accepting when a man chooses to share an intimate detail of his life with her.

Most men I've talked to including my dad, brothers and boyfriends have told me being accepted and not negatively judged for sharing parts of themselves hidden from the rest of the world is like the no. 1 thing they seek from their romantic partners. And they won't fully commit unless and until she can bring that.

Authentically versus some strategy to snag him.

Sadly, my dad never had that with my mom but did with my stepmom who was the love of his life, quite literally.

I've been asked on this forum what I bring to the table in a relationship... and it's that. Love. Acceptance. An open-minded and non-judgmental attitude. I've been told this by every boyfriend I've ever had dating back to high school!

I encourage vulnerability because without it, you'll never have true intimacy imho. It's basically an exclusive FWB type of relationship and quite disposable.

Which can be fulfilling for some people but if you want something deeper, more substantive and significant versus surface level, it requires the ability to be vulnerable.

I'm not saying it's not scary to open yourself to your partner this way... it IS. And I've run from it at times myself if I'm honest cause the emotions can get quite intense.

It takes time and a lot of TRUST. Something many relationships lack these days, sadly.

 

[jhonny9546]

>>Intimacy is a deep, multidimensional bond involving total vulnerability—emotional, physical, spiritual, and intellectual "nakedness"—without fear of judgment. It requires intentional and honest communication to create a safe space for trust, where partners feel completely known, accepted, cherished, and respected. <<

Your thoughts on this?
It's not possible with a chad, narcissist, or sociopath. And it's usually those with a strong, natural toxic game who attract women.

The men who have the true ability to create intimacy are those who were either good guys or who are frequently friend-zoned.
These are all terms used to label people, but these guys, if they work on themselves, have this enormous advantage: finding a quality woman and being able to connect with her.

Could it be that same feeling you get when you talk to your therapist? (He doesn't judge you, but he gets you talking and gives you advice.)
Have you managed to find it in people?

 

[jhonny9546]

Their marriage was cold, devoid of warmth, comfort, happiness, love, and anything even remotely resembling intimacy. Similar to my parents' marriage which also ended in divorce

I've seen things like this a lot.. yet everything seemed perfect because they had children and they were raising them..

Like I said, some people/couples don't want or feel comfortable with that kind of closeness and intimacy... or fear it, and that's fine with everyone..



You do what you want.



As for me, I wouldn't want a relationship any other way.

Me neither

 

[BaronOfHair]

I agree Baron, context as well as discretion are important. Absolutely. And not everything shared should be accepted, however....

I was speaking more in the general sense of a woman (girlfriend, wife, close friend) being open-minded, non-judgmental and accepting when a man chooses to share an intimate detail of his life with her.

Most men I've talked to including my dad, brothers and boyfriends have told me being accepted and not negatively judged for sharing parts of themselves hidden from the rest of the world is like the no. 1 thing they seek from their romantic partners. And they won't fully commit unless and until she can bring that.

Authentically versus some strategy to snag him.

Sadly, my dad never had that with my mom but did with my stepmom who was the love of his life, quite literally.

I've been asked on this forum what I bring to the table in a relationship... and it's that. Love. Acceptance. An open-minded and non-judgmental attitude. I've been told this by every boyfriend I've ever had dating back to high school!

I encourage vulnerability because without it, you'll never have true intimacy imho. It's basically an exclusive FWB type of relationship and quite disposable.

Which can be fulfilling for some people but if you want something deeper, more substantive and significant versus surface level, it requires the ability to be vulnerable.

I'm not saying it's not scary to open yourself to your partner this way... it IS. And I've run from it at times myself if I'm honest cause the emotions can get quite intense.

It takes time and a lot of TRUST. Something many relationships lack these days, sadly.

Yeah, there's truth to the adage "Men are easy to impress and love"... A gal who makes a conscious effort to ensure her man isn't coming home to a f-c-ing slaughterhouse every night has already achieved 90% of her goal. Simple as this sounds, many women remain ignorant of said fact