Wait, so why do we learn to get hot girls anyways?

[moneyisking]

First, I wanted to learn the game and seduction b/c simply I wanted to fvck.

That was about all, no deeper thought or anything. I wanted to get laid.

After 3 yrs of pursuit, I haven't gained physical or materialistic gain whole

lot, but it made me to look at these kind of things in different level.

I am still not a player or womanizer, but I look at this "game" thing in very

different ways than I did at first when I just started.



Many thoughts came across, and I had to come with a question.

Why do we learn trying to fvck hot chicks?

I think now that women ain't even in the big picture anymore.

I only want to know how to bang hot girls b/c I cannot stand the fact that there is something I cannot do or do not know how. I cannot stand the fact that I don't know what to do when I meet girls.

Guys, I think for men, the NOT KNOWING has huge huge impact, and that

is why I ardently seek to learn how to fvck hot girls. Well, I don't even care

about fvcking. I just want to know what to do with women and be an alpha

male who can have options (fvck or not fvck) and have the power to choose

between those two.


As of now, my goal is being a Successful Man (vague concept... yes)

and knowing how to deal with women are just a part of my progress to

becoming this figure. I don't know. A lot of master DJs or people that do

get laid here and know what to do with girls (most of them) are not just

bunch of horny fvckers, but they have philosophies and deeper mind and

thoughts about lots of things. To them, women are just part of a big big

picture. So.... Why do you guys learn the game?

 

[backbreaker]

very good question and it deserves I think is a well thought out answer.

You are in a cycle that I know veer well. i came here in 2002.. wanting to ****. well not really. i never was ugly and never had that big a problem attracting women, it was keeping them that was the issue. but still in essence, it was to **** who i wanted. my problem was that i couldn't **** who I wanted to **** when wanted to **** them.


I would venture to say that I have gotten more out this forum than anyone here. I don't think I would be that far off. without going into too many details and boasting, i've done okay. life is great.



there was a post in the old days on this forum it might even still be in the DJ bible where I think it was anti dump asked the question, and i'm paraphrasing here, i can't quote it word for word "great men are out climbing mountains, making new inventions, swimming the oceans of the world, what are you doing making spaghetti?"


his thread was talking directly about masculinity but there is a more important undertone to the thread, and that is that all who are truly successful with women do not put women first. Honestly, do not put women first.

it's one thing to say hey i have a few hobbies, i go to the gym, i'm hitting the books.. see look at me i'm not putting women first... okay wheres the women? this sucks.

it's another to honestly, have a different mindset, and not make women that big a prortiy in life.t here are more important things out there than getting laid. Read my sig. You cannot do anything worth a damn chasing tail your entire life.


I came here, wanting to get laid.

then i realized to get laid i had to become a better person

in the middle of becoming a better person, lol, i actually ****ed up and became a better person

while becoming a better person I realized that i was interested a few things other than women.


I don't use this site anymore as much of a how to get girls site, i'm well past that. but still, there are women in my everyday life, i have a fiancée and being a DJ is more than just getting your knob polished. knowing how to deal with, women on an everyday basis and keep the important frame, to see and understand where women are coming from, to see and understand where the AFC is coming from, hell at times to see and understand where my own damn fiancée is coming from because hell life doesn't come with an owners manual and there are times that i need help.

 

[Mistic]

As you said, it's just to master women, from the physical and mental, dont really want to get in the spiritual stuff. Once you have mastered women, or as you said have the option to fvck or not to fvck, the game becomes stupid and boring. That's where I am at. This "game" is just a silly kids game.

The next logical step is to find a real women and develop a deeper connection. But, unfortunately 99.99999999999999% of all women are dumb b!tches and you have to play the game or get played.

Now I just surf and grow food and dont bother much about girls. Too easy and stupid. I have a few that I fvck when it happens. Aside from that I'll see if a worthy girl ever comes along. Not holding my breath.

 

[backbreaker]

10% get laid 90% of the time.

when you become one of the 10%, it gets old. you move on to more important things after a while.

most men analogize over getting laid. once getting laid is not really that big a deal and you've done it. not only that, you know you CAN do it when you damn well feel like it.


think of it like this:

for thousands of years, a lot oft housands of years, man pretty much woke up and had 1 thing on his mind. how the **** am i gonna eat today. we gotta eat something. let's go hunt. There are more scientific explnations behind all this which i could get into but for the sake of this thread i'm not. For the most part this is how man rolled for a very long time. we did not do half bad with this how the **** i am gonna eat model.

then, we figured out how to harvest and domesticate plants. more importantly, plants have a much longer shelf life than meat (especially at a time when there was no frig).
Now... eating is not that big a problem. we eat when we want to eat. This invention is the most single significant innovation in the history of mankind. The of food. seems so ****ing simple today as we take it for granted, but everyone doesn't' have to go out and hunt. now that everyone is not needed to try to eat all day, we can do other things, we can broaden our horizons. WE can learn now trades, we can build ****. we can talk about philosopher, etc.

all of that was not possible until they figured out how to eat when they wanted to eat, not when food just became available.

and like wise, a man will not expand himself, until he stops chasing tail. either because he know he doesn't have to chase, or because he puts women on the backburner.

the avg guy lives in the primate example i gave. they wake up, think about and operate trying to get sex and have to take it when they can get it.

 

[Black suit]

Is it bad when you develope this mentality before actually getting pasy the getting laid a lot phase? Seems to have happened to me.

 

[GetOveIT]

Finaly someone that cuts through the crap and talk like a men, personaly i learn the game so i can be a better man, not just to get laid, and even if i get the option of getting laid with a hot girl i can chose to not get laid.

:crackup:

Its all about living the moment for me.

 

[zekko]

Once you have mastered women, or as you said have the option to fvck or not to fvck, the game becomes stupid and boring. That's where I am at. This "game" is just a silly kids game.

The next logical step is to find a real women and develop a deeper connection.

Maybe that's why there aren't that many older guys on this forum, because I have really been feeling this way lately: The game is just a silly kid's game, one I have damn little interest in playing. I want my needs met, by the shortest possible route, with the smallest amount of drama or head games possible.

A lot of these tips, frankly, they remind me of a lot of tips that are given to women to attract a man ("make him jealous, play hard to get"). Stuff that I have damn little patience for at my age.

10% get laid 90% of the time.

when you become one of the 10%, it gets old. you move on to more important things after a while.

I've never believed that 10% theory. I know far too many men who are getting laid to believe that it's only the top 10%. Maybe the top 10% are the smooth guys, the most in demand guys. But like you said, if you're one of the top 10% you move on to other things, and that leaves room for the rest of the 90% to get some more for themselves.

 

[J. Darko]

Maybe that's why there aren't that many older guys on this forum, because I have really been feeling this way lately: The game is just a silly kid's game, one I have damn little interest in playing. I want my needs met, by the shortest possible route, with the smallest amount of drama or head games possible.

A lot of these tips, frankly, they remind me of a lot of tips that are given to women to attract a man ("make him jealous, play hard to get"). Stuff that I have damn little patience for at my age.


I've never believed that 10% theory. I know far too many men who are getting laid to believe that it's only the top 10%. Maybe the top 10% are the smooth guys, the most in demand guys. But like you said, if you're one of the top 10% you move on to other things, and that leaves room for the rest of the 90% to get some more for themselves.

Agree with the first part, but helas, it's really true Zekko. At mediastudies at my university they teach the 10% theory. I even have the research article for you. It's calles Scale-free Networks by Barabasi. Google it and read the article. It says that research has show that there's a small group of people that have sexual contacts with a lot of people, while the majority of peope have few sexual contacts.


As for the why: once upon a time I thought I needed to learn this **** to get laid. Now I think this whole pick up business is bullsh*t. It's a scam by people who want to make money. They tricked people into believing that they need this information to be succesful, but no. The answer is inside. It's believing in yourself and working hard. That's all. That's what makes a man succesful.

 

[KingofHearts]

Good discussion here -

backbreaker is right on. Like other people mentioned, I can't say I'm at the level of getting what ever girl I want, but I know i don't need it. I don't think its a bad thing, but I still have this nagging question in the back of my mind: "Are you focusing on other things to hide from the fact that you can't get any girl you want?" And I feel motivation to work on myself and my game just to prove to myself that i truly don't need women. This thought comes and goes.

At 24, I run a business from home, been thru a divorce and is pretty much over women and sex (doesn't mean i don't get horny). And like Zekko said, I hate the drama and games that come with a lot women. And for most part I would rather just avoid it than deal with it for some sex. The fact that I can relate to zekko, a man nearly twice as old as me isn't normal or natural. And its certainly not by anything great that i'm doing. I'm a living example of Rollo's "meta-game". Who knows what kind of lifestyle i would have if sosuave didn't wake me up and help me realize what's really going with women. This site has confirmed so many things I always suspected were true but could never confirm in this media-brainwashed world.

Its very hard to find people I can relate to at my age and are at a similar stage in life. Its hard to find online and nearly impossible in the real world. When I look at backbreaker's post, the first thing that comes to my mind is that were evolving. Not in the darwinian sense, but this is truly a different time and we are living by a whole new set of rules. And in my efforts to find some direction, guidance or mentoring, I find that I am kind of on my own. I've learned to look at that as a good thing, something fun and adventurous. I'm blazing my own trail and finding my own way.

I apply this to how women play such small a part in my life. My approach and attitude towards women is different than the guys I know in real life. So I look at it as I'm finding a new way and making my own decisions. And I guess this comes around to answering the OP's question. The rules of the game have changed, so i'm learning what I do and don't need in this world to live and be happy. Its liberating and tragic at the same time, to learn that men don't need women and women don't need men compared to how the world used to operate.

 

[backbreaker]

Good discussion here -

backbreaker is right on. Like other people mentioned, I can't say I'm at the level of getting what ever girl I want, but I know i don't need it. I don't think its a bad thing, but I still have this nagging question in the back of my mind: "Are you focusing on other things to hide from the fact that you can't get any girl you want?" And I feel motivation to work on myself and my game just to prove to myself that i truly don't need women. This thought comes and goes.

At 24, I run a business from home, been thru a divorce and is pretty much over women and sex (doesn't mean i don't get horny). And like Zekko said, I hate the drama and games that come with a lot women. And for most part I would rather just avoid it than deal with it for some sex. The fact that I can relate to zekko, a man nearly twice as old as me isn't normal or natural. And its certainly not by anything great that i'm doing. I'm a living example of Rollo's "meta-game". Who knows what kind of lifestyle i would have if sosuave didn't wake me up and help me realize what's really going with women. This site has confirmed so many things I always suspected were true but could never confirm in this media-brainwashed world.

Its very hard to find people I can relate to at my age and are at a similar stage in life. Its hard to find online and nearly impossible in the real world. When I look at backbreaker's post, the first thing that comes to my mind is that were evolving. Not in the darwinian sense, but this is truly a different time and we are living by a whole new set of rules. And in my efforts to find some direction, guidance or mentoring, I find that I am kind of on my own. I've learned to look at that as a good thing, something fun and adventurous. I'm blazing my own trail and finding my own way.

I apply this to how women play such small a part in my life. My approach and attitude towards women is different than the guys I know in real life. So I look at it as I'm finding a new way and making my own decisions. And I guess this comes around to answering the OP's question. The rules of the game have changed, so i'm learning what I do and don't need in this world to live and be happy. Its liberating and tragic at the same time, to learn that men don't need women and women don't need men compared to how the world used to operate.

thanks for the kind words.


keep in mind, there is a big difference between not to play, and not being able to play and giving up.

I can play the game if need be. you must ALWAYS know how to play the game, because you do not know when it will become necessary for you to play a pick up game now and then. you never know.

I have seen alot of relationships and I will brag on my fiancée as I do often as she's a wonderful woman, but we have more trust in our relationship than any i've seen, and i've seen alot. i go out of town quite often, the though doesn't' cross my mind to wonder around with anyone else, nore does the thought cross her mind to entertain laying other guys. what we have, is much deeper than sex and that is something we both get. this trust allows me to be me. if we go to the track and i am at the bar chatting it up with a woman who happens to be attractive, my woman isn't looking at me sideways, or getting any ideas. i can talk. i have the gift of the gab. if a woman comes up to me and starts a conversation, i can do just that, with full comfort, have a normal grown people conversation without sexual undertones, but if i get the hint that she is trying to make a move or if she just comes out and makes a move, my woman knows i'm not interesting and like wise with her. she's hot, men will try to talk to her, often. and like me she's nice, but i know she isnt' having it.



Lololo, here is a real life example, take the college football **** going on now, with the expansion.

You have two teams, take mizzouri, and texas a and m.

Mizzouri, talked a good game, but when push came to shove, at the end they can't play the game. and now look at them. they are ****ed, with hoping that daddy (texas) can save them and save the big 12 or the small hope that the big 10 will save them. but they are past the point of being able to save themselves

Not only are they screwed, they are in no way if they are accepted anywhere, to dictate the terms of any type of agreement under their circumstances



then take the aggies. There are three conferences, the Big 12, the pac 10, and the SEC that would love nothing more than to secure a and m.

Texas screwed around and gave them an ultimatum. TExas a and m said wait hold up playboy.. i dont' know how the **** you think you are talking to, i'm not some 300 pound loser you are dealing with, girls like me and i have no problem getting any. you know what, you can go. i'll deal on my on.
that's pretty much what they did. they told texas to shove it. in turn, texas has tried to bend over backwards to get them to join the pac 16 (texas needs them more than they would admit, because of the rivalry) but neither Really NEED each other. TExas a and M doesn't NEED texas. and if texas is not going to play nice, they will cut ties which they have just recently.

they then went out and found the best deal for them which was the SEC. something that Missouri could not do.

the game is no different. texas a and m did not want to play the game, but they had to and did when necessary.

if my woman got crazy and gave me some stupid altamatium over something i did not want to give up, whatever it is, i know i can play the game. can i get a woman, can never enter your mind when dealing with a woman and the decisions you make with a woman.

she needs to know she can be replaced and will be if need be. regardless of how long you date.

 

[zekko]

It says that research has show that there's a small group of people that have sexual contacts with a lot of people, while the majority of peope have few sexual contacts

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what I'm hearing. When I read "10% get laid 90% of the time", I take that to mean there are 10% of the guys who are elite and have their choice of sexual partners. And that may be true, but I still think there are plenty of girls left to choose from after the 10% have feasted. I don't think 90% of the girls are going to spend their whole lives pining for one of these 10% guys that they can't have.

Maybe I should take it more literally. If 10% have the most sexual contacts maybe that just means 10% of the people are fvcking around. Maybe there's nothing elite involved.

Backbreaker likes to say he's part of the top 10% of guys. But he has a fiance, he's not out sarging. So he technically doesn't have a lot of sexual contacts right now. Because he's in a LTR, does that mean he's not one of the top 10%? Of course not.

I make no claim to be one of these top 10% guys, but hey maybe I am, who knows? I'm with the girl I want to be with. Should I be ineligible for elite status just because I'm not out "catting around"? Should I instead look up to the 20 year old dude I work with who's out screwing every girl he can find because he's a horny type and that's all he thinks about? He has more sexual contacts than I do, but I don't think that makes him elite.

 

[CuriousGirl]

very good question and it deserves I think is a well thought out answer.

You are in a cycle that I know veer well. i came here in 2002.. wanting to ****. well not really. i never was ugly and never had that big a problem attracting women, it was keeping them that was the issue. but still in essence, it was to **** who i wanted. my problem was that i couldn't **** who I wanted to **** when wanted to **** them.


I would venture to say that I have gotten more out this forum than anyone here. I don't think I would be that far off. without going into too many details and boasting, i've done okay. life is great.



there was a post in the old days on this forum it might even still be in the DJ bible where I think it was anti dump asked the question, and i'm paraphrasing here, i can't quote it word for word "great men are out climbing mountains, making new inventions, swimming the oceans of the world, what are you doing making spaghetti?"


his thread was talking directly about masculinity but there is a more important undertone to the thread, and that is that all who are truly successful with women do not put women first. Honestly, do not put women first.

it's one thing to say hey i have a few hobbies, i go to the gym, i'm hitting the books.. see look at me i'm not putting women first... okay wheres the women? this sucks.

it's another to honestly, have a different mindset, and not make women that big a prortiy in life.t here are more important things out there than getting laid. Read my sig. You cannot do anything worth a damn chasing tail your entire life.


I came here, wanting to get laid.

then i realized to get laid i had to become a better person

in the middle of becoming a better person, lol, i actually ****ed up and became a better person

while becoming a better person I realized that i was interested a few things other than women.


I don't use this site anymore as much of a how to get girls site, i'm well past that. but still, there are women in my everyday life, i have a fiancée and being a DJ is more than just getting your knob polished. knowing how to deal with, women on an everyday basis and keep the important frame, to see and understand where women are coming from, to see and understand where the AFC is coming from, hell at times to see and understand where my own damn fiancée is coming from because hell life doesn't come with an owners manual and there are times that i need help.

I think this is true of all aspects of life though, I don't think you should have only one thing you live for otherwise you become dependent on that. Women shouldn't always be your priority, your career shouldn't always be your priority etc. It's about balance, balancing your career, your relationship, your family, your friends.
Of course good things can come out of people who devote their lives to one thing, technology and science may have taken longer to develop if we all had this attitude, but I think for yourself, a balance is the best.

 

[backbreaker]

but that's why all these guys are here basically. that's why i came here. we put women above all. it seems simple but it's not. you are correct you shouldn't but we did and do.



Zarko, when i met my fiancée i had at the very least 5 plates and a few more in reserve. I get hit on enough to know that I am still well in that 10%, even with a ring on my finger.


heck how many stories have you read on this forum about a guy sitting at home talking to this hot woman who he craves, while she's crying about some "jerk" that won't commit, and she know's he's seeing other people, while telling you "i wish he were more like you", yet going out and still giving it up to him. women would much rather share a catch than to have a loser to themselves. i've been both guys. i've been the guy on the phone with he girla nd i've been the guy that she's talking about that won't commit.


i don't have to be out sarging to know women still want me.



here is the fundemtnal difference betweeen men and women


you have a big conference room. there are 100 guys and 100 girls in there of various degrees of success + looks. from a scale of 100 to 1 there is a guy in the room and a girl in the room that would scale out at every number one of each


about 60-70% of the women would have men talking to them. even the 30's and 40's would garner some interest by someone. fetish guys, guys who can't get anything better.

if the tables were turned, there would be 10-15 guys getting all the attention, with about 80% guys on the wall looking



better stated, when you walk in room 90% of the women there, are competing for the attention of 10% of the men. it's just how women are programmed.

the best thing you can do for your game is figure out how to get in that 10%.

i generally know when i walk in a room there are not going to be too many more men who look better than I do, who are in better shape than I am, who can dress better than I can, who can talk to women or people in general better than I can, and who generally just has their **** together more than I do.

 

[moneyisking]

I agree with people saying that we all have the answers inside us, and all tha PUA are bunch of cons trying to trick people and make money. The answer is within, I agree. The problem is that most people (anywhere including this forum) believe that answer is outside; if you see most of the threads, they are all superficial stuff. All scratch on the surface but nothing deep. I believe that getting girls, success, maturity, tenacity, confidence, self esteem, etc are all within us. We men just need to find it and develop it. Thanks for the posts guys, and if you know how to develop this core inside us, let me know.

 

[vatoloco]

Why do you guys learn the game?

I originally just wanted to pick up chicks but, somewhere along the way, I decided that women were going to be further down the totem pole of priorities in my life. First comes me and my well-being, my family and friends come in next, my motorcycling hobby comes third. Women come in at fourth...

Wait, so why do we learn to get hot girls anyways?

Cause I want to pass off my genes in conjunction with the best-looking partner possible. Increases the chances of my offspring doing better in life.

Or something like that...

 

[zekko]

Zarko, when i met my fiancée i had at the very least 5 plates and a few more in reserve. I get hit on enough to know that I am still well in that 10%, even with a ring on my finger.

Just to clarify, Backbreaker, I was not trying to say you were not in the top 10%. I believe you when you say you are, for what it's worth.

The point I was trying to make was it doesn't matter how many plates you HAD, you have one sexual contact now (unless you're cheating on your fiance which I don't think you are). So if you are indeed in that top 10% you can't define the top 10% by the number of sexual contacts they have.

Mind you, when I was 26 I was spinning plates also, although I don"t remember how many I had at once, and we didn't call it spinning plates, we called it playing the field. Back then it was more about fun and sex, now I find it more satisfying having a partner.

better stated, when you walk in room 90% of the women there, are competing for the attention of 10% of the men. it's just how women are programmed.

I understand the theory, it's just that when I observe what's going on around me, that isn't what I see. It may well be because I live in a relatively small town, but everybody here tends to pair up. And honestly, for the most part, the better looking girls end up with the better looking guys. There are exceptions but that's usually the result.

When the girls walk into the conference room they may all initially want to go home with one of the top 10 or 15 guys (who are all maybe 9s, let's say). But the hottest girls (9s) grab those top guys, so the 7s and 8s quickly realize they have to set their sites a little lower. In fairly short order, you tend to see the 5s paired off with other 5s, the 6s paired up with 6s, the 7s paired off with 7s, the 8s paired off with 8s, etc. Maybe the 2s and 3s just sit it out.

Otherwise, you would have 90% of the male population never getting laid, or almost never. And that doesn't match what I see going on around me. Most of the guys I see can get women, and they don't all have to settle for the warpigs either. In fact, I see a lot of the warpigs left on the sidelines.

Even though people end up pairing off around here, there is still a general pattern of guys in their 20s running around screwing different women. A fair amount of the young girls run around too, but a lot of them get married fairly young or settle into an LTR, or have a child with some guy and try to make it work.

 

[kingsam]

I understand the theory, it's just that when I observe what's going on around me, that isn't what I see. It may well be because I live in a relatively small town, but everybody here tends to pair up. And honestly, for the most part, the better looking girls end up with the better looking guys. There are exceptions but that's usually the result.

When the girls walk into the conference room they may all initially want to go home with one of the top 10 or 15 guys (who are all maybe 9s, let's say). But the hottest girls (9s) grab those top guys, so the 7s and 8s quickly realize they have to set their sites a little lower. In fairly short order, you tend to see the 5s paired off with other 5s, the 6s paired up with 6s, the 7s paired off with 7s, the 8s paired off with 8s, etc. Maybe the 2s and 3s just sit it out.

Otherwise, you would have 90% of the male population never getting laid, or almost never. And that doesn't match what I see going on around me. Most of the guys I see can get women, and they don't all have to settle for the warpigs either. In fact, I see a lot of the warpigs left on the sidelines.

an experiment showing this perfectly...

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/science-of-sex-appeal-the-dating-and-mating-pool.html

 

[backbreaker]

an experiment showing this perfectly...

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/science-of-sex-appeal-the-dating-and-mating-pool.html

you aren't listening to me.


you say you are but you aren't.

COMPETING FOR the attention of the 10%

this isn't the first time you and I have been down this road. I made a comment before that it was either feast or famine with me. when I was overweight, I couldn't get a woman to look two times at me. when I got back in shape I could go on 2-3 dates a day after a month or so.

fat women gotta get ****ed too, of course they are going to lower their expectations.

anyway i'm done, you aren't listening.

also you are completing missing the big picture by focusing on the percentages, and that being that the more desirable you are the more options you have, the more options you have the more power consciously and subconsciously wield.

 

[kingsam]

backbreaker havent u got me confused with zekko?
i was just showing a video that back up what he was saying

-------

this isn't the first time you and I have been down this road. I made a comment before that it was either feast or famine with me. when I was overweight, I couldn't get a woman to look two times at me. when I got back in shape I could go on 2-3 dates a day after a month or so.

you mean couldnt get hotter women to look at you, the fatties you prob could have got...

 

[zekko]

you aren't listening to me.
you say you are but you aren't.
COMPETING FOR the attention of the 10%

If you're saying 90% of the girls walk into the conference room and all initially want the top 10% guys, I don't disagree with that. But life doesn't stop there. They figure out their place on the totem pole and settle for something a little lower.

This 10%-90% thing has been talked about a lot here, by different people. I've never bought into it. I don't believe you have to be one of the top 10% guys to get a decent girl. And I don't believe that 10% of the guys are doing all of the fvcking while the other 90% look on. Because that's not what I see in everyday life.

this isn't the first time you and I have been down this road. I made a comment before that it was either feast or famine with me. when I was overweight, I couldn't get a woman to look two times at me. when I got back in shape I could go on 2-3 dates a day after a month or so.

Yeah, I remember discussing that. I don't doubt that has been your experience, and it seems a lot of guys who have become successful have had that experience as well. All I said was it has never been that way with me. I seem to have a certain value with women, and it hasn't really varied much at all over the years.

Even though I've been too skinny, bulked up, overweight, slimmed back down, dirt poor, making good money, been confident, been not confident, through it all the interest level I've gotten from girls has been oddly constant. Which is not a rockstar level or complete failure level, just somewhere in the middle. Common sense would tell you it should probably be otherwise but that hasn't been my experience.