Usual ratios of lifts (Squat vs Bench, etc.)

[vlf445]

After my first few weeks of training, I noticed all my lifts are very similar in weight. I would imagine that my squat and deadlift should be much higher than my bench. . .but here are my numbers.

Bench - 115 3x5
Squat - 110 3x5
Deadlift - 115 1x5
Military - 95 3x5
Bent Row - 105 3x5

Does anyone else think its strange that these numbers are so close? Or is it usually like that for noobs just starting out. I'm sure I'm going full intensity on all lifts because I can hardly finish the 5th rep for each lift. Also, Im wondering if these are okay starting numbers and what some attainable goals might be for an 8 week program. I'm 6'1'' and weigh 155 if that information helps.

Peace

 

[Drum&Bass]

Or is it usually like that for noobs just starting out.

This.

At this part of the game you should NOT be lifting weight you can't do for 15 or 20 reps...As a matter of fact how many body weight squats / push ups can you do non-stop ?? if the answer is not 30 - 50 reps you have no business pushing iron around yet.

How many Pull Ups can you do non-stop ?? if the answer is not 10 or more you need to focus on body weight training before you think about your numbers in the big 3.

Heres some goals:

BW squats - 30 -50
Pull Ups - 12
Dips - 15
Push ups - 35
Inverted Push Ups - 8

 

[j0n24]

HAHhahaha what?!

"how many body weight squats / push ups can you do non-stop ?? if the answer is not 30 - 50 reps you have no business pushing iron around yet."

wOW I've never read that before in my life. I know people have their own mindset when it comes to the subject of gaining strength but that is a little to strange for my taste.

How can 30 body squats show him that he is ready to move onto weighted exercises? I can understand if he has had knee surgery/pain then I can see where your coming form but a male barely starting out should have no problem jumping into weight lifting exercises.

I trust he will look up how to perform the exercises correctly but I dont see the problem after his warmup to just go headfirst into his body weight exercises.

OP: Keep adding weight progressively every time your going to the gym (IF you can) and soon your dead will be higher then your squat , your squat will be higher then your bench and your bench will be higher then your military press.

Although if you wanted i'd take out the military press and put in pullups but that's just me.

 

[Furyguy]

How many Pull Ups can you do non-stop ?? if the answer is not 10 or more you need to focus on body weight training before you think about your numbers in the big 3.

Why?

 

[Jitterbug]

I can understand the bodyweight squat and push-ups (although 30-50 push-ups for a big fat guy is much tougher than pressing light weight), but...

How many Pull Ups can you do non-stop ?? if the answer is not 10 or more you need to focus on body weight training before you think about your numbers in the big 3.

Why?

I total near 1000lbs in the 3 powerlifts, but I can just do 10 deadhang pull-ups if it's close-grip, and maybe 5-6 if it's wide-grip. And I can only do those pull-ups because of my weight training. Prior to that, I couldn't even do one wide-grip.

vlf455, as you increase the weights on the bar, squat and deadlift will enjoy more regular and bigger increases than the rest. Don't worry too much about it for now, just keep lifting regularly and with good form.

 

[Bladerunner]

After my first few weeks of training, I noticed all my lifts are very similar in weight. I would imagine that my squat and deadlift should be much higher than my bench. . .but here are my numbers.

Bench - 115 3x5
Squat - 110 3x5
Deadlift - 115 1x5
Military - 95 3x5
Bent Row - 105 3x5

Does anyone else think its strange that these numbers are so close? Or is it usually like that for noobs just starting out. I'm sure I'm going full intensity on all lifts because I can hardly finish the 5th rep for each lift. Also, Im wondering if these are okay starting numbers and what some attainable goals might be for an 8 week program. I'm 6'1'' and weigh 155 if that information helps.

Like has already been mentioned, those are perfectly good starting numbers, and you'll find that soon enough your squat and deadlift will accelerate much faster than your bench/military.

Questions about your program though (to anyone really): I'm not familiar with any 3x5 programs. Isn't it supposed to be 5x5?

 

[search1ng]

i wasn't able to do 30-50 pushups, 12 chin ups, etc b4 gym.

i started pushing iron with numbers lower then OP for 8-12 reps.

30-50 pushups, 12 chins etc are all too easy now.

I don't think having to start off with body-weight exercises is really that much of a big deal...

 

[Drum&Bass]

I don't think having to start off with body-weight exercises is really that much of a big deal...

Bodyweight exercises are just enough resistance to build strength but not get someone sore. The LESS sore someone is from lifting weights the better. It is better because you can train more frequently. The higher the training frequency the bigger and stronger you get.

Frequency is also the foundation of technique. The more you do something the easier it becomes to manipulate your body through space. The easier it becomes to manipulate your body through space the easier it becomes to master technique.

When I get clients who are out of shape, have ZERO experience, are very weak and don't have correct movement patterns (form), I don't throw them into a powerlifting routine from the start, nor do I put them on a novice/advanced 3-5 program.

I teach them how to move their body correctly, over and over again, till it becomes instinctive. This carries over MUCH easier when its time to learn barbbell exercises.

I would assume most of you just jumped straight into weight training, because everyone on this forum only knows what they read in articles and guess what articles are always talking about...how to do LOADED exercises, so im not surprised that a complete beginner who probably doesnt have good form and doesnt have a good raw base of strength that body weight exercises provide would get advise to squat, deadlift and bench press.

From experience, I took a 15 year old 145lb golfer who NEVER deadlifted in his life pull 315lbs with ease. An out of shape Office executive from a 300lb bench he did years ago in college to a 375lb current bench, a client with HORRIBLE posture who could not squat or do push ups, able to squat 185lbs with perfect form and back arch. The same client who had horrible posture also pulled 275lb on a deadlift. It was the first time he had ever deadlifted in his life.

The foundation for my clients achieving those things was body training BEFORE barbell training.

 

[j0n24]

Your speculation and arrogance on painting everyone with the "Moron," Brush is very ill advised.

I doubt everyone in here only knows what they read in Mens Fitness,Mens Health..blah blah blah. Plus the fact that you act like your the only one with the key to getting stronger is very ill conceived.

But yes I jumped right into my powerlifting routine...BUT I did NOT start at a high ass number. I did what most people should do when they start lifting...

I started at Bar...I used the bar with 0 weight so I can learn the movement with the bar. This way I dont get injured in the future when I load the bar, but doing 50 bodyweight squats is all fine and dandy but like you said he's a beginner its a lot different when you have a bar on your back/on the floor/ on top of you.

But like I said everyone has their own opinion on the matter.

Also the 3x5 routine I think he's talking about the 3x8 to be honest I 've never heard of a 3x5 before.

 

[CaptainJ]

Also the 3x5 routine I think he's talking about the 3x8 to be honest I 've never heard of a 3x5 before.

Starting strength

 

[Sanctimonious]

Bodyweight exercises are just enough resistance to build strength but not get someone sore. The LESS sore someone is from lifting weights the better. It is better because you can train more frequently. The higher the training frequency the bigger and stronger you get.

I train sore all the time. I've read that it is pretty much irrelevant. I do a couple extra warm-up sets or movements to get the soreness out and then I am fine to go. (As a high school athlete who had to train or practice literally every day I got very used to doing this.) Why is it a bad thing?

When I get clients who are out of shape, have ZERO experience, are very weak and don't have correct movement patterns (form), I don't throw them into a powerlifting routine from the start, nor do I put them on a novice/advanced 3-5 program. I teach them how to move their body correctly, over and over again, till it becomes instinctive. This carries over MUCH easier when its time to learn barbbell exercises.

How about out-of-shape people with a lot of experience? I played a multitude of sports all through elementary and high school, then got fat and lazy in college for a couple years. You don't lose all that dexterity and muscle memory the way you lose endurance and strength. Granted I didn't squat like Platz the first time I got under a bar, it's still not very hard to pick up a new movement if you have a solid base of athletic experience.

I feel like someone who's already athletic should be able to start off on a weight-training program without needing to learn how to move properly. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the best way to learn how to squat, bench, and deadlift is to squat, bench, and deadlift. What do you think?

 

[Drum&Bass]

Your speculation and arrogance on painting everyone with the "Moron," Brush is very ill advised.

I don't know the OP personally and neither does anyone else. I DO NOT paint anyone with the moron brush..I paint them with a "KEEP THE BEGINNER AS SAFE AS POSSIBLE" brush.

You don't know what his technique looks like, You don't know what his imbalances are, You don't know if there are small flaws in his technique. Bodyweight exercises are a good way to learn what feels most natural when moving. Overtime you begin to develop a certain pattern through repetition.

IT BECOMES AN EASIER TRANSITION WHEN ITS TIME TO MOVE ON TO BARBELL TRAINING. Sure you can get good results by just jumping into loaded weight training, but in my experience I've had tons of high school and college athletes tell me they see these programs from mark rippetoe and stronglifts and they gave em a try but their backs got jacked up, or they hurt their wrist trying powercleans.

Im not saying EVERYONE will have this problem but starting off carefully will reduce those issues. Of course doing loaded exercises is much different than body weight exercises but who do you think will have an easier time learning a deep barbell squat...Some one brand new to strength training with minimal athleticism or someone thats been doing body weight squats, push ups, dips and pull ups for awhile ??

I feel like someone who's already athletic should be able to start off on a weight-training program without needing to learn how to move properly. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the best way to learn how to squat, bench, and deadlift is to squat, bench, and deadlift. What do you think?

It depends..Again referring back to my experience..I've had quite a few athletes who were taught things INCORRECTLY. I would be shocked if I ever came across an athlete who knew how to squat, deadlift or bench press correctly based on what their coach had taught them.

However..for the athlete that CAN be easily taught and already possess IDEAL movement patterns..then YES an out of shape or returning athlete can jump into barbell training...AFTER doing a proper conditioning cycle.

You don't lose all that dexterity and muscle memory the way you lose endurance and strength. Granted I didn't squat like Platz the first time I got under a bar, it's still not very hard to pick up a new movement if you have a solid base of athletic experience.

I agree with you, but the OP did not state whether or not he was an athlete he told us he was a NOOB, so im assuming he's a comeplete beginner that is why Im giving him the safe and steady route.

These are just my personal opinions on what has worked for me and my clients, of course there is MORE THAN ONE WAY to get bigger and stronger, but I have my way that has been proven to work time and time again. I've got a well developed SYSTEM that has given me great results so there is no need to change it (yet). As a beginner you need to start somewhere...why not learn to CRAWL - WALK and then RUN ??

 

[EFFORT]

This is another example of how its tough to give someone customized advice over a forum. Everyone has different goals, different bodies, different understandings, different lifestyles, different financial situations, different risk tolerance etc. I see nothing wrong with your method D&B its just a tough thing to sell to someone that isn't your client.... most guys just want to throw some weight on the bar

 

[Sanctimonious]

Gotcha, I see what you're saying and it makes a lot of sense, thanks for the response.

What do you think about the 'training while sore' thing?

 

[CarlitosWay]

After my first few weeks of training, I noticed all my lifts are very similar in weight. I would imagine that my squat and deadlift should be much higher than my bench. . .but here are my numbers.

Bench - 115 3x5
Squat - 110 3x5
Deadlift - 115 1x5
Military - 95 3x5
Bent Row - 105 3x5

Does anyone else think its strange that these numbers are so close? Or is it usually like that for noobs just starting out. I'm sure I'm going full intensity on all lifts because I can hardly finish the 5th rep for each lift. Also, Im wondering if these are okay starting numbers and what some attainable goals might be for an 8 week program. I'm 6'1'' and weigh 155 if that information helps.

Peace

I'll advise you well, next time your in the gym, communicate with some of the biggest/strongest guys in your gym, pick their brains some if you may. Ask for critique in form, hell ask if you could train the same days they do and learn a few things . Eat everyday like you mean it, even if you're broke, at least get a couple big meals in and a few snacks on the side. Some pizza or burgers here won't hurt also, you're skinny as **** face it. IF you can train 4-5 times a week do it!! As I said earlier train alongside some more experienced people, most are down to earth and started out in the same exact position you are in.

This is the best advise I can give you over a forum. No one here can be with you in the gym, critiquing everything you do in there unless you start making vids of all your lifts.

 

[Drum&Bass]

What do you think about the 'training while sore' thing?

I think its ok once in awhile when soreness is VERY minimal however it becomes an issue if you are constantly sore every time you go to workout.

You might not be getting enough or proper nutrition for recovery or you may need to scale down the intensity, weight or reps of certain exercises or certain workouts.

I know its tough to scale back and make your workouts easier but you don't want to always push as hard and as heavy as you can. Very rarely will I actually beat the crap out of myself during workouts anymore. It makes for an exciting story to tell but its NOT ideal for progress in the gym.

You want to enter into the gym feeling great and you want to finish your workouts and exit the gym feeling BETTER. You want to AVOID feeling beat up or feeling like you just got dragged through hell after your workouts.


Factors that could be keeping you sore every time you workout which in turn could be hindering your progress are

- Not Enough Nutrition
- Not Eating the Right kind of Nutrients
- To much Intensity (training like a body builder with TONS of reps with decreasing weight)
- To much weight
- To many overall reps with constant or progressing weight

 

[CaptainJ]

I'll advise you well, next time your in the gym, communicate with some of the biggest/strongest guys in your gym, pick their brains some if you may. Ask for critique in form, hell ask if you could train the same days they do and learn a few things .

Learning off the experts is a surefire way to learn things quickly and correctly, the only problem is that depending on the gym he goes to, the so called expert may actually be a fool. I know in the commercial gym I used to go to, the biggest/strongest guy there was a loud mouthed bench press hero with chicken legs. And the gym I'm at now, most of the people there are morons with terrible form who make up for it by taking roids. The actual big, strong and clever experts are hard to find amongst the large amount of broskis. So the to the OP, definetly ask for advice at people in your gym, as long as you know that you are at a reputable gym, and the guy you are asking is actually an expert.

 

[vlf445]

Drum&Bass, do you mind posting up a bodyweight routine I could do to help prepare for weights? In one week I will not have access to weights for a month anyway, so I may as well take the time to get myself ready for the next step especially if it will help out with my form. I've already been doing pull ups n chin ups for over a year, with my max at about 13 and 15 respectively. I haven't been doing any other bodyweight exercises however, and could use some help in that area.

Currently I do not belong to a gym, I do all these lifts off of a bench press rack I have. My primary focus is form, but I doubt myself as to whether I'm doing it all correctly. I haven't hurt myself yet....but that could just be YET. I have pretty bad posture and wonder how much this affects my lifting form. I do everything in front of a mirror I set up but as a noob I'm probably a terrible judge of what everything is supposed to look like, no matter how many times I have watched videos of each lift.

Since I'm not at a gym, I don't know who to ask about my form. Also, the gym I used to belong to, Lifetime Fitness (one of the only gyms around here) may not be the best place for advice unless I chose the person carefully. There are tons of teenagers runnin around just havin fun instead of lifting seriously. I'm wondering if I should stick to bodyweight stuff for the summer and wait til I'm back at school.

 

[CarlitosWay]

Learning off the experts is a surefire way to learn things quickly and correctly, the only problem is that depending on the gym he goes to, the so called expert may actually be a fool. I know in the commercial gym I used to go to, the biggest/strongest guy there was a loud mouthed bench press hero with chicken legs. And the gym I'm at now, most of the people there are morons with terrible form who make up for it by taking roids. The actual big, strong and clever experts are hard to find amongst the large amount of broskis. So the to the OP, definetly ask for advice at people in your gym, as long as you know that you are at a reputable gym, and the guy you are asking is actually an expert.

So you can always learn a thing or two from any one, they don't have to be "experts". Maybe that big/strong loud mouthed guy could teach some one how to build their upper body/bench up. I know a guy who can't build up his calves (high insertions) for **** and they still suck, rest of his legs are enormous as he trains them real hard regularly, his upperbody mass is his best feature though, yet if he was wearing baggy shorts you would think he's another "bench press hero".

How do you know most of them are taking roids? Just curious, do you actually train with those guys or talk to them regularly? Or just e-ranting?

Anyways OP, Lifetime Fitness, is a huge gym with a big variety of people going to it. You should be able to spot an experienced lifter here or there once in a while.

 

[CaptainJ]

Ofcourse I try to find out more info behind the people before I make judgements.

Yeah I talked with bench press hero once, he said he had been training 5 days a week for the past 10 years. Now if it had taken him 10 years to reach a well developed upperbody, then I'd disregard most of his training advice as it's not efficient or well balanced. The only good piece of advice he gave was one that I already knew, and that was to eat ****loads. Ofcourse this was spread around some of his other gems like "Squatting below parralel will destroy your knees". Yeah I could have learnt a thing or two from him, but those nuggets I would have learnt would have set me back about 8 years in terms of strength training. How is a new guy going to be able to decipher what is good advice and what is bad advice. There's so much broscience at the gym that it's a very hard place to know what's what.

As for my gym, it's got a pretty big rep for the people training there taking roids, my friend knows the staff there who also corroborate this reputation, plus it becomes pretty obvious when you get a lot of guys openly talking about their roid habits there.

Also on the soreness thing, training through soreness is perfectly fine. There's no bad effects from it. Soreness is simply an indicator that your muscles have done something new. So the if it's the first time you have trained in a while, then you'll get sore, but as frequency and consistency increase, that soreness disappears.