Soshyopathe
Master Don Juan
Re: ????
Here here!
The ultimite martial artist part 1-theory
- Thread starter Jinn
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Soshyopathe
Master Don Juan
BRILLIANT! I've been waiting for someone to bring up that point. That's a hell of an argument, and I would love for you to build on that.
I hate it when people make blanket statements such as "karate is not effective" because they have read that on some other forums. You cannot make that statement until you have personally fought enough karate guys yourself (at least 20) and defeated all of them. I've seen alot of karate guys defeat muay thai guys and boxing guys in the ring and I've seen it vice versa also.
Also, if you are talking about what's effective on the street, I would have have to say no martial arts is effective on the street. Just look at what happened last week to Alex Gong. He was a true warrior in the ring and outside the ring, but some coward shot & killed him.
Also, if you are talking about what's effective on the street, I would have have to say no martial arts is effective on the street. Just look at what happened last week to Alex Gong. He was a true warrior in the ring and outside the ring, but some coward shot & killed him.
gladly
A) who the hell gives a **** if shaolin boxing can be as strong as muay thai or jujitsu, if you have to move to shanghai just to get effective training most of us probably don't want anything to do with it. (I've said that several times but no one seems to want to listen, and yes, I know there are a few near where you, lucky you, but most of us don't have that luxury). Just like I stated before, you people see the words "traditional MA=bad" and suddenly nothing else seems to matter to you
and
B) I've said twice already for you to stop responding to this thread, as I have left too much information out for it to be of any value, but you people still push forward in your little crusade to prove to me that TMA's are worthy styles
I'll say this one last time, I don't give a **** if the "real" karate that you guys preach about (the ancient style that you have to go to an underground labyrinth in the floating temple of uraikuagawa to learn) is as strong as MMA's and why the hell you care so much is beyond me, but if you want to continue blabbing on about this then you may do so among each other
I'm out
edit: or it would also help if the mods would close this thread as I have now asked for the third time.
SILENCE!
Good grief, you people have no idea about fighting period.
First off Krav Maga is probably the best pratical self-defense martial art for a few reasons:
1. It teaches you how to disarm and kill an oppenent. Defense techinques cover knives, clubs, hand guns, rifles and grenades.
2. The moves are basic, no b.s. forms. Anyone can learn it, making it accessable to the common man who doesn't have the time to practice for years and will most likely need those skills before he becomes a "master" in a traditional martial art.
3. It has been field tested nearly everyday for over 40 years. Used by the Israeli military and its citizens for self defense.
In a nation that faces hostiles everyday they are not going to use a martial art that is ineffective.
4. People are actually trained to think their way through an attack. The problem with most martial arts is that you are just shown how to block, punch, kick, parry and counter. But none explain how to think your way throw a fight in order to survive.(Most fights will not be classic bar room brawls, but people being mugged, ambushed and suprised.) Most martial arts do a one time kumite and thats all the sparring those students get, that doesn't prepair you for a fight, you are not taught how to take blows and react to them so you don't lose initative and become open for more blows. This is why boxers are considered more dangerous than martial artists, because they can actually take blows and know what to do when hit.
About clinching, its only good if you know how to use it in real world situations. Clinching does allow you to get into a good position for choking. This is wear Krav Maga, Judo and wrestling become important.
About striking, fights are not won with just a single punch or fancy combinations. Its about exposing weaknesses and disabling an attacker from further attacks.
Example: Attacker throws a straight punch at you, you use an outside block to deflect the attack. You then quickly jab the attacker in the gut as he is trying to regain balance for a follow up attack. The blow bends him over forward and you follow threw with an uppercut because his head, a much more sensitive target, has become a target of oppurtunity. If he does not fall over his head will certainly snap back leaving his torso open for more blows if his head has moved out of punching range. If the oppenent fell after the uppercut then simply begin to stomp and kick him till your sure he can no longer hurt you.
About kicking, its stupid and dangerous to kick in a fight if you don't know what your doing. Its important to have two feet on the ground at all times otherwise if that one foot gets taken out by a sweep kick or stomp you'll end up on the ground, and thats not the best place in a fight for someone who is not trained to fight on their back in a half or full mount position.
Some advice for fighting.
1. Learn how to take blows.
2. Know how to react after you have been hit.
3. Know how to escape a fight.
4. Learn to recognize everyday items that can be used for self defense weapons.
5. At all times carry the intent to protect yourself, and that it is not wrong to harm someone in order to protect your life and health when attacked.
6. Learn how to recognizes triggers and unsafe situations in order to avoid a fight. That's the best way to win a fight.
7. DON'T EVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN UNTIL YOU ARE FAR AWAY FROM IMMEDIATE LIFE THREATING DANGER, OR UNTIL YOUR ATTACKER CAN NO LONGER ATTACK. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ONE HIT KILL, UNLESS YOU HAVE A GUN.
8. Guns will only get you into more trouble, and give a false sense of security. Its okay if you know how to use one, but don't carry one as it will be mostly likely used against you if you lose control of it.
-Grey Fox
Good grief, you people have no idea about fighting period.
First off Krav Maga is probably the best pratical self-defense martial art for a few reasons:
1. It teaches you how to disarm and kill an oppenent. Defense techinques cover knives, clubs, hand guns, rifles and grenades.
2. The moves are basic, no b.s. forms. Anyone can learn it, making it accessable to the common man who doesn't have the time to practice for years and will most likely need those skills before he becomes a "master" in a traditional martial art.
3. It has been field tested nearly everyday for over 40 years. Used by the Israeli military and its citizens for self defense.
In a nation that faces hostiles everyday they are not going to use a martial art that is ineffective.
4. People are actually trained to think their way through an attack. The problem with most martial arts is that you are just shown how to block, punch, kick, parry and counter. But none explain how to think your way throw a fight in order to survive.(Most fights will not be classic bar room brawls, but people being mugged, ambushed and suprised.) Most martial arts do a one time kumite and thats all the sparring those students get, that doesn't prepair you for a fight, you are not taught how to take blows and react to them so you don't lose initative and become open for more blows. This is why boxers are considered more dangerous than martial artists, because they can actually take blows and know what to do when hit.
About clinching, its only good if you know how to use it in real world situations. Clinching does allow you to get into a good position for choking. This is wear Krav Maga, Judo and wrestling become important.
About striking, fights are not won with just a single punch or fancy combinations. Its about exposing weaknesses and disabling an attacker from further attacks.
Example: Attacker throws a straight punch at you, you use an outside block to deflect the attack. You then quickly jab the attacker in the gut as he is trying to regain balance for a follow up attack. The blow bends him over forward and you follow threw with an uppercut because his head, a much more sensitive target, has become a target of oppurtunity. If he does not fall over his head will certainly snap back leaving his torso open for more blows if his head has moved out of punching range. If the oppenent fell after the uppercut then simply begin to stomp and kick him till your sure he can no longer hurt you.
About kicking, its stupid and dangerous to kick in a fight if you don't know what your doing. Its important to have two feet on the ground at all times otherwise if that one foot gets taken out by a sweep kick or stomp you'll end up on the ground, and thats not the best place in a fight for someone who is not trained to fight on their back in a half or full mount position.
Some advice for fighting.
1. Learn how to take blows.
2. Know how to react after you have been hit.
3. Know how to escape a fight.
4. Learn to recognize everyday items that can be used for self defense weapons.
5. At all times carry the intent to protect yourself, and that it is not wrong to harm someone in order to protect your life and health when attacked.
6. Learn how to recognizes triggers and unsafe situations in order to avoid a fight. That's the best way to win a fight.
7. DON'T EVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN UNTIL YOU ARE FAR AWAY FROM IMMEDIATE LIFE THREATING DANGER, OR UNTIL YOUR ATTACKER CAN NO LONGER ATTACK. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ONE HIT KILL, UNLESS YOU HAVE A GUN.
8. Guns will only get you into more trouble, and give a false sense of security. Its okay if you know how to use one, but don't carry one as it will be mostly likely used against you if you lose control of it.
-Grey Fox
Soshyopathe
Master Don Juan
Sorry, Grey Fox, but Krav Maga is the most pothetic martial art to this day. You rely on your aggression and strength to overpower an opponent. How can you respect a style that relies on you being stronger? Then what's the point of learning to fight.
Their strikes are also non-specific. They'll kick/knee you anywhere as long as it's as hard as they can. Their fist techniques would push an opponent back before disabling them. And because they put full force into everything, they are always off-balance.
There are more counters to Krav Maga techniques than any other style, because the moves are similar to your standard street fighter. There are dozens of ways to avoid flurries/bum rushes. There is no technique to Krav.
Their strikes are also non-specific. They'll kick/knee you anywhere as long as it's as hard as they can. Their fist techniques would push an opponent back before disabling them. And because they put full force into everything, they are always off-balance.
There are more counters to Krav Maga techniques than any other style, because the moves are similar to your standard street fighter. There are dozens of ways to avoid flurries/bum rushes. There is no technique to Krav.
Soshyopathe
Master Don Juan
True.
Best Karate School in South Florida, Martial Arts academy in Hollywood, The teacher is Andy Horne. He won 2 PanAmerican gold metals and he is an expert in many styles, Including Ju Jitsu among many others. He was my teacher for many years until I moved to NY. To all the guys out there, good things come at a price. If you want a fine girl, you can work on your game and get her panties, or if you are lazy you get a ho or go to a strip club. The same in martial arts. You want to be good? It takes years. I remember I could beat up most of my classmates and including some blue belts when I was a white belt, but my teacher refused to test for the yellow belt because I wasnt mentally ready. How right he was, when I finally got my yellow belt and then moved on to other levels, I realized the balance and discipline that you reach when you learn to control your mind. I highly recomend this school. We never used gloves or head gears for sparring. I remembers we punched the bag (or fist push ups) until our fist would bleed. I remember we had this conversation with my buddies in the dojo about what style was better, my teacher said one thing that I would never forget, "it takes time to learn a skill inside and outside, but it takes even longer to master it". If you are serious about learning martial arts, dont trust those schools who claim to have a perfect style that will make you a black belt in a year. It took me one year to just learn 5 katas pefectly (katas are about body control). In one year you are not going to learn much. Having said that, does anybody know any okinawan karate schools in NY?????
Seikokan student
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Aikodo
Hey guys i'm new to this site and well i was reading over your discussion on martial arts and well i didn't see anything on aikido. What do you think of it? I've been taking it for about a month now and some of the techniques i've seen look pretty effective to me. I think a well trained aikidoist could really hold his own in a fight wether it be a large or small opponent.
Hey guys i'm new to this site and well i was reading over your discussion on martial arts and well i didn't see anything on aikido. What do you think of it? I've been taking it for about a month now and some of the techniques i've seen look pretty effective to me. I think a well trained aikidoist could really hold his own in a fight wether it be a large or small opponent.
Deadly_Assassin
Master Don Juan
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what if you wanna learn how to use weapons, like swords and sticks and stuff?whats the best martial arts for that?
I got a mate who does Tae kwan do, hes a 2nd dan black belt and has been doing it for 15years, hes really good, but he says tae kwan do is the best.
I also heard that shaolin kung fu is more about external strenght and Wudan training is about internal ( letting all your worries and fears go, and focusing all the energy into your punches and your kicks )
I got a mate who does Tae kwan do, hes a 2nd dan black belt and has been doing it for 15years, hes really good, but he says tae kwan do is the best.
I also heard that shaolin kung fu is more about external strenght and Wudan training is about internal ( letting all your worries and fears go, and focusing all the energy into your punches and your kicks )
Alpha male Female Catcher
Don Juan
I don't know about it being the best. It is useful to some degree though. I did Taekwondo for exactly three years and got up to double red level (I failed my triple red belt grading - the belt before black belt - and then left in disgust at being failed (I thought it was a political decision) and took up body building instead). In my brief 3yr Taekwondo career, in both my yellow belt year and my read belt year I got the silver medal in the middle weight division for the NSW state open TKD championchips. Anyway that's my Taekwondo experience and where I am coming from so here are my 2 cents on martial arts.
Personally I see martial arts as 50% very practical and 50% bull**** (though as stated above my only first hand experience is with TKD - and also a couple of months with Jujitsu).
The main weakness with TKD (the only art I can realy critisize cause its the only one I know enough about to do so) is that they teach you to go for the head with your feet and they don't teach you to go for the head with your hands (which is the wrong way around from what it should be). I had on average about three (semi full contact) sparing sessions at the end of each TKD training session and trained for three days a week for three years. So in total I had about 3*3*50*3= 1350 sparing sessions. In every one of those 1350 sparing rounds I tried as hard as I could to kick my oponant in the head. I succeeded exactly twice (fortuntely one of those times was in one of my yellow belt state championchip fight rounds).
A success rate of 2 out of 1350 attempts to kick my opponant's head isn't exactly high. In fact considering that in a sparing round I might make more than 20 attempts to kick my opponant in the head my success rate at kicking to the head is more like 2 out of 27,000 attempts in those 3 years. In hind sight I therefor conclude that trying to kick your oponant in the head isn't a very practical tactic (though I never saw this at the time but just kept trying harder). On the other hand my success rate at punching my opponants in the head (in street fights) is over 50%. I instictively (though unintentionally) punched my opponent in the head when he was coming at me in the red belt state championchip final round and I was disqualified for it thus losing the gold medal - imagine that punishing someone for using the only really effective tactic in a fight! In any case I conclude that it is much better to try to punch your oponant in the head than to try to kick him there and that TKD is teaching a less than optimum tactic in doing things the other way around. (To be fair TKD does teach you to punch to the head but you never get to practice it in sparing sessions which is where you really learn to fight). To be fair I have landed numerous kicks on my oppoants at waist level and Taekwondo kicks to waist level are quite effective.
I do think TKD made me a very much better fighter than I would be if I hadn't learnt any fighting art. The place I got to learn to fight though was mainly in the sparing sessions at the end of each training session not during the training sessions (The sparing sessions were theoretically light contact but allways turned into full contact - otherwise your oponant would ignore your effective blows so you had to hit him hard to stop him coming at you; in order to make him realize that you had delivered an effective blow and not just ignore your blows you had to really hit them hard so fights allways degenerated into full contact - maybe it was good we werent allowed to punch to the head).
The blocking techniques that I developed in those sparing sessions was somewhat modified from the official blocking techniques that you were supposed to learn (but also related to them). The bottom line is that the strict form blocks and punching techniques you learn in TKD are not practical in a street fight or even in a TKD sparing session (from my experience). I do agree though that the official blocks and strikes that you learn marching up and down the hall and the katas are useful for teaching style and coordination and the basic idea behind blocking (but to make them effective you have to make them more like boxing style blocks rather that the really open and exegerated official style versions).
I think TKD type blocks are effective against someone throwing full power over balancing type punches but not against someone throwing boxer type short sharp jabs. I believe the hand really is quicker than the eye and that your typical TKD type face block where you knock your oponants hand out of the way with a really wide open exegerated type block doesn't work unless your oponant is drunk or you know before hand exactly which part of your body your oponant is going to go for (and he really over commits himself and telegraphs his moves). I think from my experience that the best and most practical blocking techniques are the kind the boxers use where you block the punch because your hand is already there in the way protecting your head. Though if you've ever had a boxing sparing sessions where you don't use gloves you'll know that you can't take too many blows on ungloved fists before your hand really starts to hurt, so with out boxing gloves I'm not sure that even boxing works that well in real life.
In real life fights I think that most of your oponants blows will land on you (though not quite exactly where he was aiming for) and most of your blows will land on him (though not exactly where you were aiming for) and that the guy with the most endurance and able to take the most punishment and able to hit the hardest is by and large the guy who will win. I think a person who does TKD is probably a lot more effective than I've probably made it sound and probably a lot more than other martial artists are likely to give credit too but it does have major weaknesses I think. I can't really comment on martial arts other tham TKD though (especially grappling ones) because I have no where near enough experience of them to do so.
I will add also that the TKD I learnt has some very handy ways to get out of choke holds, I don't know many grappling techniques but I know at least seven ways to get out of choke holds - it was almost the only grappling technique our instructure taught us and some of them I think are quite effective - (though I think he was to some extent an MMA and borrowed the choke hold releases from some other art). I don't know for sure but I think that kung fu and karate have a rather more sophisticated hand combat form than TKD so maybe I am misjudging the striking arts based on my limited experience I am just giving my impression of TKD. In hind sight I think TKD is probably good for beginer level self defence but your probably better off doing some other art like kungfu or karate if you want to learn a lot of sophisticated moves. All the fancy sophisticated type moves that the higher belts learn in TKD are just fancier versions of kicks. The kicks look good but in real life aren't that practical (because they take too much energy and are generally too slow to actually hit your opponant). The only TKD kick that really works is the round house to the gut and that is indeed the kick that is used in 99.9% of TKD competion rounds (and I've seen a lot of them) even among (especially among) black belts. The bottom line is that it is the hand that is quicker than the eye but not your feet (for most people) and so you are better of learning to use your hands rather than your feet but TKD does the reverse and I think this is TKDs main weakness (though the effectiveness of the round house to the gut shouldn't be underestimated - pity thats pretty much all TKD consists of).
Soshyopathe
Master Don Juan
Yeah, TKD can be silly sometimes. Block a punch with your foot? Excuse me?
You gotta be very careful in American TKD schools. We've butchered the art in 99% of our dojos, and turned it into a money-vacuum technique more than a fighting art.
You gotta be very careful in American TKD schools. We've butchered the art in 99% of our dojos, and turned it into a money-vacuum technique more than a fighting art.
A semi-interesting thread (there are tons of these things). I myself box, practice Muay Thai as well as vale tudo/MMA.
I have fought a few TKD and Karate guys and they were all rather unimpressive. This isn't to say these styles are completely useless, there are hardasses in every style, some more than most.
I have fought a few TKD and Karate guys and they were all rather unimpressive. This isn't to say these styles are completely useless, there are hardasses in every style, some more than most.
