The Phone Call

[Juando]

I sort of nexted a girl based on her negativity, grumpiness, lack of respect.

I say "sort of" because to be honest the situation is not all bleak and negative- at times she has displayed touching warmth and sensitivity. I don't need her to be perfect but lately the unpleasant stuff got to be too much and I let her know it, without making a big deal about it but she understood because her weak defense was, "if I'm grumpy you don't have to take it personally". Right.

We spoke briefly the night of our brief confrontation, she was uncomfortable but I kept it short and told her I was going out. Then she called the next night but not leaving a message. I did not call her back, felt some pangs of oneitis but basically felt good about giving myself permission to cut her loose.

I've kept busy with my life and when my mind or emotions traveled in her direction advised myself to move on, definitely away from the deteriorating relationship we had.

Ok so it's been over a week and I knew that eventually THE CALL would come, the call from her testing the waters.
It came this morning, friendly sing-song voice, saying, Not much going on but when you get a chance give a call.

I've been encouraging myself to sit this one out, not to punish her or come up with some artificial time out but with the mindset that either we're history OR if we reconnect it's going to be much more on my terms- yes, I'm ready to be the prize, something I don't have a ton of experience with.

I have nothing to lose either way, but I'd love to do an experiment with this one to test my dj muscle. Like I said, either we're history or she becomes my love slave.

I need support and advice from you guys, particularly you more experienced sages: What now? Call her back, make her wait, what? I do not want to have a TALK with her, partly on principle and also because she is very smooth and smart about controlling the frame. We have a history and patterns of hanging out, etc. and I do not want to settle back in to that, I really want to shift the dynamic. If I do it it will be with ACTION and not words...

As you can tell I know how I want it be with her based on what I want for myself, whether she stays in my life or not but what I feel shaky on is how to manage the situation, how to keep my "niceness" and RAFC from undermining my vision and behavior.

Any thoughts?

 

[Interceptor]

Call her back. She deserves at least some courtesy and politeness.
Observe her behavior though. And understand that all human beings have a RIGHT to be angry.
So don't go off the deep end if you see that she's angry.
But dont be afraid to tell her that you dont appreciate it when/if she directs it at you.
If you really care about her,meaning you're not just with her because you are desperate for some female attention, then you may want to show her that you're not the enemy here, you're on her side. Women somtimes need to feel that, and hear it.
So if she's taking this for granted, then it's better for you two to be apart, since she can't appreciate you. (if you can handle that.Hopefully, you're not desperate.)

Finally, understand that you are under no obligation to be with her.
You owe her nothing like that.
You two are not married.
And she should not be 100% responsible for YOUR mental health, happiness, and well being.
Learn to be independent emotionally. And not to base too much importance, and significance on these types of things.
Let people be who they are.
It's ok. They have a right to do so.
But dont let yourself be awash in emotional upheaval about it so easily.
To tell you the truth, women are attracted to men who can feel a woman's emotions , but not lose control over their own center.
The old 'If she's not happy, then Im not happy" line is NOT what we should be using as our modus operandi, so to speak.

 

[MikeEdward1973]

Juando, may I ask how long/how many times you've been out with her?

 

[Juando]

Juando, may I ask how long/how many times you've been out with her?

Sure: I've known her for over a year and we started to become intimate after a few months- I met her in a work situation but that's all changed now.

It's been a rollercoaster ride with her but I have to say that even though I can't imagine being exclusive with her now she is definitely an extraordinary person, and my attraction for her is over the top, which is fun to watch but not always the best dynamic between us. Honestly, it's mutual but much more powerful on my end which obviously can put me at a disadvantage if I don't watch it.

Interceptor YOU are extraordinary, gifted...

She called me teary eyed while I was out driving today but I'll report back... gotta run now... thanks, guys!!

 

[jophil28]

It's been a rollercoaster ride with her but I have to say that even though I can't imagine being exclusive with her now she is definitely an extraordinary person, and my attraction for her is over the top, which is fun to watch but not always the best dynamic between us.

Ooops ! Those rollercoaster relationships are charged with "the buzz" but will inevitable damage your health. There is a high percentage of women who are drama queens ,both overt and COVERT. The last type are the most damaging. These are the HPDs, BPDs and assorted other crazies. Hot little f**ks, but guaranteed to get you addicted and crazy too.

You needs to look at who lights the drama fire when it breaks out. You or her.
If you ask a woman about her previous relationships she will tell you how she is going to behave with you.

 

[Juando]

You needs to look at who lights the drama fire when it breaks out. You or her.
If you ask a woman about her previous relationships she will tell you how she is going to behave with you.

A dose of spot-on reality from Jo, as per usual.

She's not quite 30 and was in 3-4 yr. relationship which was quite turbulent;
Interestingly, the one before that was tame. Why, because the guy had a life, did his own thing, did not indulge in the drama.... hmmm.

I miss her when she's not around, and I'll admit that I enjoyed much of the intensity between us, but, what I want to do with this one is either let it go or if I can, practice shifting my energy, my approach so as to glide over the waves.

Definitely not a situation for onetitis, the only chance it can work is if I keep myself plugged into the larger world and come back to her for some sugar in moderate helpings.

She did call today and got me driving. I told her I would call her back but realized she was upset so I pulled over and gave her a few minutes. Her upset was not related to me although she threw in that she had been calling me and I know it really bugs her when she can't reach me or thinks I'm not picking up.

I'm really glad I had the time away from her, I feel much more alpha
and now the test is to see if I can pull this one out of the fire, which mostly requires my sobriety, so to speak.

 

[jophil28]

A dose of spot-on reality from Jo, as per usual.

She's not quite 30 and was in 3-4 yr. relationship which was quite turbulent;
Interestingly, the one before that was tame. Why, because the guy had a life, did his own thing, did not indulge in the drama.... hmmm.

There you go....3-4 years of drama with her ex and then a year of drama with you..

Let me ask you this - if you removed the sex and the adrenaline buzz that you get from her mindgames, what valuable commodity exactly does she bring to your life ?

 

[Juando]

There you go....3-4 years of drama with her ex and then a year of drama with you..

Let me ask you this - if you removed the sex and the adrenaline buzz that you get from her mindgames, what valuable commodity exactly does she bring to your life ?

Great question.

She is a great cook. Not good, amazing.
Food is one of our connections, not just eating and cooking but the the whole art. We have probably had dozens of hours conversing passionately about food.

She is a great dresser, terrific sense of style. She is very easy on the eyes- I know, that's related to sex...

Good to hang with- even when not being intimate I enjoy spending many hours with her without getting bored or fidgety.

Related to her sense of style, she is an artist and it manifests in many parts of her expression.

I have a lot of experience with high maintenance women, she is definitely not the first. I'm not bragging- most of my experiences have been unhappy.

The way it manifests with her is that we can have a really good stretch of time together, all great but then suddenly she will hit a rough patch like the last time where nothing seemed to work between us the way I want.

Yes there are things about this one I truly enjoy and I'm still trying to figure out if I can make it work, without giving up myself or compromising my core values. I've told her to her face that I want to find someone like her but with maturity. As I said my inner voice says that she's a flame I can get close to but in limited doses. Is it worth it? Apparently I'm not ready to say no.
And for sure oneitis would kill it.

I need to find out if she can be a plate, part of a set.

 

[Mr. Me]

I'm still trying to figure out if I can make it work

So tell me why you think that all of a sudden somehow miraculously, her years of ingrained behavior and patterns and all her emotional issues and baggage will dissipate and change?

You're speaking through the blind optimism of your own desire.

I sort of nexted a girl based on her negativity, grumpiness, lack of respect.

I say "sort of" because to be honest the situation is not all bleak and negative- at times she has displayed touching warmth and sensitivity.

Well, everyone has good parts and bad parts. Even Hitler was nice to Eva. I wonder what she used to say about him. "Vell, Adolf's not awl bahd. He iz SOOO gentle wit de Nazi Youth! Iz like dey ver hiz own kinder! Und, he tinks awlways 'bout vat's best for Deutschland first radder den tink 'bout himself!"

But you have to reason whether her moods are deal breakers or not for you, period. If you're with her, THAT'S what you're going to have to put up with, rather than look only at her positives and think that some talking to her will do away with the negatives.

Her calling you back is where the rubber meets the road, my friend, and where the true test of your power over yourself to secure your best life lies.

 

[Juando]

So tell me why you think that all of a sudden somehow miraculously, her years of ingrained behavior and patterns and all her emotional issues and baggage will dissipate and change?

You're speaking through the blind optimism of your own desire.



Well, everyone has good parts and bad parts. Even Hitler was nice to Eva. I wonder what she used to say about him. "Vell, Adolf's not awl bahd. He iz SOOO gentle wit de Nazi Youth! Iz like dey ver hiz own kinder! Und, he tinks awlways 'bout vat's best for Deutschland first radder den tink 'bout himself!"

But you have to reason whether her moods are deal breakers or not for you, period. If you're with her, THAT'S what you're going to have to put up with, rather than look only at her positives and think that some talking to her will do away with the negatives.

I like your style MM!

I have zero expectations for her to change.
The only thing I can hope to change is MY relationship to her and MY expectations.

If I do persist the relationship in some form I intend to put her through a series of tests and depending on how she responds, "training" her on what my limits are. I don't think people change fundamentally but they are capable of adapting. So I'm adapting my behavior and expectations to the reality of the situation and I am curious how she will respond.

You're absolutely right on the blind optimism based on desire, always a tempting well to drink from and I appreciate the reminder.

I've got a life and I don't plan to make this my life's work. I am cultivating other relationships and more than anything, thanks to you, so many of you guys, cultivating my own self.

Her calling you back is where the rubber meets the road, my friend, and where the true test of your power over yourself to secure your best life lies.

I think I get you. Gulp.

 

[Juando]

Had dinner with her tonight.

Rough start, she was moody, very touch and go for the first fifteen minutes, then had a great time for the next four hours.

She left smiling, happy, making googly eyes at me.

Not good enough for me.

What I really got was how much she missed me the last ten days.

She probably thinks were "OK" now. Wrong.
I'm going to make myself busy with other things and put her on the back burner.

This is fun.

 

[thedeparted]

She sounds like an ISFP, they are the artist type. They are also pure emotion. You have to have strong discipline to manage them. But it can be done. Good luck!

 

[jophil28]

She sounds like an ISFP, they are the artist type. They are also pure emotion. You have to have strong discipline to manage them. But it can be done. Good luck!

Whatever she is in any jargon, the fact remains that she is addicted to drama and moodiness in some form a lot of the time.Perhaps she is mildly BPD or has some personality twists.
A lot of women become snooty, or moody when they know that they can get away with it. IT is a crap test to make you jump though hoops.
Did she get moody in the first two months or did she gradually allow her moodiness to emerge when she felt she had you hooked ?

 

[Mr. Me]

She's not on Anti-Depressants, is she? Red Flag if she is.

If she's got a generally negative outlook, it could be the product of a depressed mind. Depressed people filter things in the negative.

They can bring you down. Stay away from them and find emotionally healthy people to be surrounded by.

She probably thinks were "OK" now. Wrong.
I'm going to make myself busy with other things and put her on the back burner.

This is fun

That sounds awfully passive-aggressive of you, Juando. You're not supposed to be getting jollies by doing a take-away.

You should be busy with other things because you are busy with other things, not as a punishment (for lack of a better term) because she may be hopeful that everything's copasetic with the two of you.

In any event, what warrants a take-away at this time? She was sour for 15 minutes but then great for four hours. Even sane people have off times. It's not like she did anything wrong.

I don't think people change fundamentally but they are capable of adapting. So I'm adapting my behavior and expectations to the reality of the situation

What the hell does that mean????

Insofar as changing other people's behavior, the best way to try and affect that is to change your own behavior first.

In this case, I don't think you have to. If she's meeting up with you and the first 15 minutes are a carry-over of her previous mood, and within those 15 minutes you've established a dynamic with her that moves her mood over to a happy, positive one, then you're probably doing all the right things to begin with.

As an example, let's say a date meets up with a guy and starts telling him about her day and the problem she had with a co-worker. Now, some guys will respond by trying to solve her problem and give advice and some guys will play Therapist. Well, that establishes a pattern that could keep her venting and keep her in her previous mood.

Some other guys may listen to her vent a little and then say something like, "Wow! I don't blame you for feeling down. Sounds like your co-worker is a real nut! Glad I don't work there. Hey! I saw the weirdest thing today! I can't believe this! blah, blah, blah..." - they validate her feelings (make her feel understood) and then dangle a shiny object to distract and change the mood back to FUN.

Is that what you do?

 

[Juando]

Whatever she is in any jargon, the fact remains that she is addicted to drama and moodiness in some form a lot of the time.Perhaps she is mildly BPD or has some personality twists.
A lot of women become snooty, or moody when they know that they can get away with it. IT is a crap test to make you jump though hoops.
Did she get moody in the first two months or did she gradually allow her moodiness to emerge when she felt she had you hooked ?

The first two months were amazing, we were inseparable (fun then, not something I would want to repeat given another opportunity).

She WAS moody but it was toned down, so I had no problem spending entire weekends with her.

Her moodiness did not ratchet up gradually, it was more like she suddenly would be unavailable and distant without explanation.

I should have moved on then but we reconnected and at that point was much more of a handful.

She's not on Anti-Depressants, is she? Red Flag if she is.

If she's got a generally negative outlook, it could be the product of a depressed mind. Depressed people filter things in the negative.

They can bring you down. Stay away from them and find emotionally healthy people to be surrounded by.

No, no drugs.
She's always talked about being depressed but I did not see much of it around me, she would generally be playful. Problem started when her critical, sharp edged side started to show.

That sounds awfully passive-aggressive of you, Juando. You're not supposed to be getting jollies by doing a take-away.

You should be busy with other things because you are busy with other things, not as a punishment (for lack of a better term) because she may be hopeful that everything's copasetic with the two of you.

In any event, what warrants a take-away at this time? She was sour for 15 minutes but then great for four hours. Even sane people have off times. It's not like she did anything wrong.

You're right. What's fun is not punishing her, not at all what I want. What's fun is learning to ride the dj bicycle, learning to be in charge of my choices and emotions.

And you're right about the 15min/hours ratio. Problem is I don't trust her and I'm testing to see if I can change not her, but our dynamic.
Take-away is new for me and it was eye-opening to see the results from the first one, where she called after ten days (claiming she had made lots of calls but I did not get messages). Her demeanor was noticeably different but she's proud and stubborn, got a ways to go before I'll let my guard down, trust her. She basically has to prove to me she's worthy of me. What's shifted for me is I don't feel at all anxious about calling her, pursuing her.
For example, we had dinner Tuesday night and hung out till late even though she had to work that night and get up early. Wed she's driving back from San Diego and she calls to have lunch with me. This from somebody who made a point of saying we were spending a lot of time together, as in: too much.

Fine, I'll spend time with her. When I feel like it, and most likely based on her calling me.

Insofar as changing other people's behavior, the best way to try and affect that is to change your own behavior first.

In this case, I don't think you have to. If she's meeting up with you and the first 15 minutes are a carry-over of her previous mood, and within those 15 minutes you've established a dynamic with her that moves her mood over to a happy, positive one, then you're probably doing all the right things to begin with.

As an example, let's say a date meets up with a guy and starts telling him about her day and the problem she had with a co-worker. Now, some guys will respond by trying to solve her problem and give advice and some guys will play Therapist. Well, that establishes a pattern that could keep her venting and keep her in her previous mood.

Some other guys may listen to her vent a little and then say something like, "Wow! I don't blame you for feeling down. Sounds like your co-worker is a real nut! Glad I don't work there. Hey! I saw the weirdest thing today! I can't believe this! blah, blah, blah..." - they validate her feelings (make her feel understood) and then dangle a shiny object to distract and change the mood back to FUN.

Is that what you do?

I totally agree with you and that is what I do and the results are good, she is very often a good sport, surprises me with her ability to change her mood on a dime and suddenly be playful, silly, lighthearted.

Again the problem is this cake is not yet baked, and it's going to take more than a couple of good encounters to convince me we've turned a corner.
Things were decidedly sliding badly when I decided to cut her off, she pi$$ed me off, and she's on probation now.

And like I said: I potentially could really take off on the positive feelings I have for her, but this is new for me, learning how to protect myself, learning how to manage a woman and a relationship through actions and choices, rather than by suffering, pleading, shutting down.

And again, I am not making her my life's project; my radar is scanning for other women in the meanwhile.


You guys make great points and ask great questions, it really helps, I'm grateful.

 

[Mr. Me]

She called after ten days (claiming she had made lots of calls but I did not get messages)

You didn't get the messages because she actually didn't leave any. Maybe she didn't even really call.

we had dinner Tuesday night and hung out till late even though she had to work that night and get up early. Wed she's driving back from San Diego and she calls to have lunch with me. This from somebody who made a point of saying we were spending a lot of time together, as in: too much.

Fine, I'll spend time with her. When I feel like it, and most likely based on her calling me.

If a woman says to me, "we're spending too much time together" or anything like that, I immediately disappear and make her wish come true. Then I don't bother returning calls or emails because I really want to give them what they asked for.

I want them to be careful of what they wish for, and only a real absence can make their heart grow fonder.

If she said she was spending too much time with you, and then just as quickly wanted to spend more time with you, that would indicate to me that some other guy she was looking to date fell through. She was probably busy with that guy for parts of ten days and that's why she didn't call you (but lied about it to make it look like she did).

and that is what I do

I scare myself when I'm right.

it's going to take more than a couple of good encounters to convince me we've turned a corner.

This is ingrained behavior we're talking about; there isn't a "turning a corner" so fast. It's more about *managing* your dealings with her, taking her down mood into account.

Everyone's down once in a while, but if she's down often, that may be a deal breaker. And if she is depressed but not under treatment, you can't be her shrink or victim.

Real behavioral change takes time and consistency. Under pressure, people resort back to base behaviors and patterns, which are like learned habits. It takes a while to break those habits when push comes to shove and practice better habits where those new habits become second nature.

So, you watch for consistency over time to see if new behaviors have manifested.

 

[jophil28]

So, you watch for consistency over time to see if new behaviors have manifested.

Just reading this thread ( and others similar) reminds me of how much moodiness and unpredictable and plain stupid behavior we encounter from women. How we are wiiling to ride a rollercoaster for some pvssy ..

Mr Me talks about "managing " her behavior. I agree, but why the F should this be required in the first place. I have been in a relationship with a grown professional woman a few years ago. I was more in the role of "daddy" or "Camp counselor" than SO.
Damn, it was exhausting, and ultimately it failed because she was a wacko from the CLusterB group and she LOVED her drama addiction.

Perhaps, it is totally pointless to try to "negotiate" with women in troublesome moments and instead we need to implement a slow "takeaway" as SOP.
I am thinking about some of my historical moments with women when the shyte hit the fan. The vast majority of them were nothing more that her trying to hoop jump me into some weaker position. They were essentally just power plays on her part. MInd games for control. I made the grand mistake of trying to "talk it over"..( just like conventional counseling preaches) ..The result of that was that she learned that she gets 5 hours of my agitated attention right after she pulled some faked up drama. I belived that if I "discussed" her crap behavior then she would see the error of her ways and apologise and then change her ways. How naive of me. Women never "see" their blunders as problematic because of their arrogance and their self importance.
SHe invariably saw ME as 'the problem' for creating a conversation about her actions. Women seem to hold the view that a man who talks about a relationship problem IS the problem. SO much for open communication.


I have a patented, award winning "method" now that works really well .
When a women does some dumb shyte ( that would usually get me pissed enough in the past to talk about it for hours), I just stare at her for a few seconds slowly shaking my head from side to side. Then I just turn and walk away without another word.

The efficiency and the economy of this tactic is awesome.
I may just refine this method and redesign it for all occasions and write a book .

 

[Juando]

I have a patented, award winning "method" now that works really well .
When a women does some dumb shyte ( that would usually get me pissed enough in the past to talk about it for hours), I just stare at her for a few seconds slowly shaking my head from side to side. Then I just turn and walk away without another word.

:yes: :rock: :yes: :rock: :yes:

 

[Juando]

Just reading this thread ( and others similar) reminds me of how much moodiness and unpredictable and plain stupid behavior we encounter from women. How we are wiiling to ride a rollercoaster for some pvssy ..

Mr Me talks about "managing " her behavior. I agree, but why the F should this be required in the first place. I have been in a relationship with a grown professional woman a few years ago. I was more in the role of "daddy" or "Camp counselor" than SO.
Damn, it was exhausting, and ultimately it failed because she was a wacko from the CLusterB group and she LOVED her drama addiction.

Perhaps, it is totally pointless to try to "negotiate" with women in troublesome moments and instead we need to implement a slow "takeaway" as SOP.
I am thinking about some of my historical moments with women when the shyte hit the fan. The vast majority of them were nothing more that her trying to hoop jump me into some weaker position. They were essentally just power plays on her part. MInd games for control. I made the grand mistake of trying to "talk it over"..( just like conventional counseling preaches) ..The result of that was that she learned that she gets 5 hours of my agitated attention right after she pulled some faked up drama. I belived that if I "discussed" her crap behavior then she would see the error of her ways and apologise and then change her ways. How naive of me. Women never "see" their blunders as problematic because of their arrogance and their self importance.
SHe invariably saw ME as 'the problem' for creating a conversation about her actions. Women seem to hold the view that a man who talks about a relationship problem IS the problem. SO much for open communication.


I have a patented, award winning "method" now that works really well .
When a women does some dumb shyte ( that would usually get me pissed enough in the past to talk about it for hours), I just stare at her for a few seconds slowly shaking my head from side to side. Then I just turn and walk away without another word.

The efficiency and the economy of this tactic is awesome.
I may just refine this method and redesign it for all occasions and write a book .

One of my reactions to this scenario is, why not just go out and find a stable woman: she must be out there.

Hmm. I hate to admit this but usually when I do meet a woman who seems tame and reasonable and rational (not that she is, she may just seem it)... I'm... bored. I admit it, OK? And it's habit, programming, whatever, I'm the moth drawn to the fire. And like a lot of guys in denial, if confronted I would probably rationalize by saying I'm up to the challenge.

So now what? Re-program myself? Get better at "managing"? Try some "boring" women for a change?

You guys who are with women who are drama-free, do they exist? Are you bored? Or have you just gotten better at riding the bronco?

 

[jophil28]

Oopps