The First Law of Metabolic Thermodynamics States that...

Ricky

Master Don Juan
Joined
Mar 9, 2002
Messages
3,957
Reaction score
733
Age
50
That's simply wrong on fasting, at least within short windows. My fasts are usually 30-36 hours going from after dinner one night, skipping eating the next day and eating again the following morning.

The science shows it's the best way to burn almost pure fat and it's actually very muscle sparing due to huge pulses of GH that raise it to 600-700% of baseline within 24 hours. From a survival aspect this makes perfect sense as the body wants to give you energy short term that you need to go "find food" without causing a loss of muscle which will help you find food.

Compared to virtually every other method of losing weight that is at best 50% fat and 50% muscle, short term fasting is 90% fat loss. Literally the best you can do without using some crazy drug that can burn out your mitochondria and kill you. Forgot what that's called... it's super effective but super dangerous because the optimal dose and the kill you dose are very close together. Or possibly some sort of cryogenic/ice bath stuff that causes your body to burn calories to stay warm.

As a protective measure, just in case, I intake 10g of Perfect Amino BCAA's on fasting days which basically provide some protein building blocks with no calories.

I would recommend doing that as it will still allow you to fast but also provide some amino acids. It may not be necessary, but if it helps in any way, it's a bonus. I have not noticed any negative effects on muscle growth/muscle loss while fasting and I have done some form of it for many years now.

Some also recommend drinking electrolytes to ensure you aren't disrupting that balance and making it easier on your body once you stop fasting, but I have never done that. Might try it and see if it has any effect.
Most i've done recently are 24 hour fasts. I do have trouble sleeping sometimes while fasting. I can't really afford that, nor can i afford to become very irritable as fasting can sometimes make me. I think fasting is effective though.

It's possible Peter Attia was doing multiple day fasts. I know at one point he mentioned once a month doing a 3 day fast.
 

Ricky

Master Don Juan
Joined
Mar 9, 2002
Messages
3,957
Reaction score
733
Age
50
Good reason to exercise before starting the fast... it helps you enter ketosis faster. No surprise there.


A group of 20 healthy adults took part in this project, with each person being asked to participate in two 36-hour fasts. All subjects stayed hydrated during this entire process, of course. After eating one last uniform meal, the study participants were separated into two groups. One immediately began fasting with no exercise, while the others engaged in a strenuous treadmill session for 45-50 minutes first.

After that, each participant completed a series of hunger and mood surveys every two hours and had their levels of B-hydroxybutyrate (BHB), a ketone-like chemical, measured.

The differences between the two cohorts were drastic. Those who exercised entered ketosis three and a half hours faster, on average, and their bodies produced 43% more BHB.

Researchers theorize that exercising before a fast causes the body to burn through a significant amount of energy/glucose, ultimately resulting in a quick transition to ketosis. Those who didn't exercise didn't enter ketosis until about 20-24 hours into their fast.

"For me, the toughest time for fasting is that period between 20 and 24 hours, so if I can do something to stop fasting before 24 hours and get the same health outcomes, that's beneficial," says study co-author Bruce Bailey, a BYU exercise science professor. "Or if I do fast for my usual 24 hours but start with exercise, I'll get even more benefits."

For what it's worth, exercising didn't make participants any more grumpy or irritable than their non-exercising peers. "Everyone's going to be a little grumpier when they fast, but we found that you aren't going to feel worse with the intervention of exercise—with exercise, you can get these extra benefits and be the exact same amount of grumpy as you would be if you didn't exercise," Deru notes.
 

BackInTheGame78

Moderator
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
13,543
Reaction score
14,497
Most i've done recently are 24 hour fasts. I do have trouble sleeping sometimes while fasting. I can't really afford that, nor can i afford to become very irritable as fasting can sometimes make me. I think fasting is effective though.

It's possible Peter Attia was doing multiple day fasts. I know at one point he mentioned once a month doing a 3 day fast.
Try taking some GABA or some melatonin prior to going to sleep, that should help with the sleep issues
 

BackInTheGame78

Moderator
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
13,543
Reaction score
14,497
Good reason to exercise before starting the fast... it helps you enter ketosis faster. No surprise there.


A group of 20 healthy adults took part in this project, with each person being asked to participate in two 36-hour fasts. All subjects stayed hydrated during this entire process, of course. After eating one last uniform meal, the study participants were separated into two groups. One immediately began fasting with no exercise, while the others engaged in a strenuous treadmill session for 45-50 minutes first.

After that, each participant completed a series of hunger and mood surveys every two hours and had their levels of B-hydroxybutyrate (BHB), a ketone-like chemical, measured.

The differences between the two cohorts were drastic. Those who exercised entered ketosis three and a half hours faster, on average, and their bodies produced 43% more BHB.

Researchers theorize that exercising before a fast causes the body to burn through a significant amount of energy/glucose, ultimately resulting in a quick transition to ketosis. Those who didn't exercise didn't enter ketosis until about 20-24 hours into their fast.

"For me, the toughest time for fasting is that period between 20 and 24 hours, so if I can do something to stop fasting before 24 hours and get the same health outcomes, that's beneficial," says study co-author Bruce Bailey, a BYU exercise science professor. "Or if I do fast for my usual 24 hours but start with exercise, I'll get even more benefits."

For what it's worth, exercising didn't make participants any more grumpy or irritable than their non-exercising peers. "Everyone's going to be a little grumpier when they fast, but we found that you aren't going to feel worse with the intervention of exercise—with exercise, you can get these extra benefits and be the exact same amount of grumpy as you would be if you didn't exercise," Deru notes.
Interesting but it makes sense. I wonder if that would apply if the exercise was done during the fast instead of at the beginning?

I typically walk in the mornings, so the day of the fast I will be out around 7am walking for an hour or so, about 3.5-4 miles.

That's also weird in regards to the time he finds toughest...mine is always lunchtime on that day, which would put it around 14-16 hours into the fast.

By around 3pm I start feeling pretty wired and super focused and that lasts through around 9pm or so when I start winding down a little and then I am in bed by 10 or 10:30.
 

Money & Muscle

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 22, 2023
Messages
1,426
Reaction score
1,537
diet is probably half of it, strength training is probably 25% and the consistent accumulation of little things adding up to big things is the other 25%.
Diet is far more than half of it. there are billion dollar industries built off folks losing weight by doing nothing but changing their diet.

Strength training is imperative to retaining muscle in a cut... It's the single most important item, closely followed by protein intake, then hormonal support (TRT included). Strength training is pretty subpar at burning calories (in the short term) comparative to effort needed to perform... LISS cardio is more effective on that front honestly. BUT having a solid base of muscle will help in the long run of keeping weight off. More muscle mass = higher BMR.

Intermittent fasting is nothing magical. At the end of the day, if you eat yourself into a caloric surplus during your 4 hour eating period - you will still gain weight. Studies show it to be a more effective method of keeping weight off than others, most of those studies hint that it is the lifestyle change that does it. Keto is a ***** to maintain, comparative to making one big meal a day and just doing that forever - you know?

I would recommend switching up your whole day fasts to be a modified fast (look for Protein Sparing Modified Fast if you really want, 800cals of pure protein and 0 fats 0 carbs). It will help to retain muscle. BCAAs are largely overrated and usually a waste of calories during a deficit.

Electrolytes? Make sure you salt your food and you'll be fine.
 

BackInTheGame78

Moderator
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
13,543
Reaction score
14,497
Diet is far more than half of it. there are billion dollar industries built off folks losing weight by doing nothing but changing their diet.

Strength training is imperative to retaining muscle in a cut... It's the single most important item, closely followed by protein intake, then hormonal support (TRT included). Strength training is pretty subpar at burning calories (in the short term) comparative to effort needed to perform... LISS cardio is more effective on that front honestly. BUT having a solid base of muscle will help in the long run of keeping weight off. More muscle mass = higher BMR.

Intermittent fasting is nothing magical. At the end of the day, if you eat yourself into a caloric surplus during your 4 hour eating period - you will still gain weight. Studies show it to be a more effective method of keeping weight off than others, most of those studies hint that it is the lifestyle change that does it. Keto is a ***** to maintain, comparative to making one big meal a day and just doing that forever - you know?

I would recommend switching up your whole day fasts to be a modified fast (look for Protein Sparing Modified Fast if you really want, 800cals of pure protein and 0 fats 0 carbs). It will help to retain muscle. BCAAs are largely overrated and usually a waste of calories during a deficit.

Electrolytes? Make sure you salt your food and you'll be fine.
Sure, you can lose weight simply by changing your diet and probably get to where you want to get to weight wise just by doing that. I am not arguing that at all.

I'm simply saying that if you want to do it on a more efficient timeframe, then there are a lot of things you can do in addition to diet to make it more effective.

In other words, if someone wants to lose 4-6 lbs a month, then diet is all they need to worry about. If they want to maximize their efficiency and drop 12, 15, 17 lbs a month then maximizing their diet by itself isn't going to get them there. Unless they plan on starving themselves which will backfire relatively quickly.

I also don't practice intermittent fasting in the typical way. I do 32-36ish hour fasts twice a week (5:2) and then I eat normally on a carb cycle around that. There is no overeating, I track everything meticulously to the gram every day, I get my macros at the beginning of each day based on my updated weight and then I set the calories and macros in MyFitnessPal. High carb days are usually about 100 calories more than medium carb days which are around 100 calories more than low carb days, so there is a swing of about 200 calories between high and low carb days.
 
Last edited:

Money & Muscle

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 22, 2023
Messages
1,426
Reaction score
1,537
If they want to maximize their efficiency and drop 12, 15, 17 lbs a month then maximizing their diet by itself isn't going to get them there.
Oh, then I agree for sure. I certainly wouldn't recommend target fat loss over 1%BW/wk (which equates to 8lbs a month for a 200lb individual) though.

Seriously, if you haven't looked into the MATADOR study, you should give it a look. I know I'm just a dude on the internet, but there's a LOT of insight into dieting that comes from this study.
 

BackInTheGame78

Moderator
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
13,543
Reaction score
14,497
Oh, then I agree for sure. I certainly wouldn't recommend target fat loss over 1%BW/wk (which equates to 8lbs a month for a 200lb individual) though.

Seriously, if you haven't looked into the MATADOR study, you should give it a look. I know I'm just a dude on the internet, but there's a LOT of insight into dieting that comes from this study.
Just based on my experience, I believe that's simply inefficiency on their part and that people are capable of safely losing far more than that if done properly and attacking it from all angles ...the last 2 months I have dropped 11.4 and 16.8 pounds respectively. 46 total in the last 4 months. That's after having to tweak some things when the second month was only a 5.8 lb loss.

I will read the study, but I have rapidly lost weight 6-7 times now, most of the time around 25-30 lbs in about 6-7 weeks coming off winter crap eating and heading into spring. Unfortunately my winter crap eating this year for way out of control and I stopped working out for a few months which killed me even worse.

This year the goal is to continue working towards 10-12% bodyfat through the winter while steadily gaining weight again once I get to a good base point.
 

Money & Muscle

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 22, 2023
Messages
1,426
Reaction score
1,537
Just based on my experience, I believe that's simply inefficiency on their part and that people are capable of safely losing far more than that if done properly and attacking it from all angles ...the last 2 months I have dropped 11.4 and 16.8 pounds respectively. 46 total in the last 4 months. That's after having to tweak some things when the second month was only a 5.8 lb loss.

I will read the study, but I have rapidly lost weight 6-7 times now, most of the time around 25-30 lbs in about 6-7 weeks coming off winter crap eating and heading into spring. Unfortunately my winter crap eating this year for way out of control and I stopped working out for a few months which killed me even worse.

This year the goal is to continue working towards 10-12% bodyfat through the winter while steadily gaining weight again once I get to a good base point.
Just keep in mind that what is relatively safe (for your muscles) for you isn't really the same for natties. TRT will keep your hormones supported such that you have little risk of losing muscle. Natties trying to cut that hard are pretty much garenteed to lose muscle at those weight loss rates - hence the 1%BW/wk recommendation.
 

BackInTheGame78

Moderator
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
13,543
Reaction score
14,497
Just keep in mind that what is relatively safe (for your muscles) for you isn't really the same for natties. TRT will keep your hormones supported such that you have little risk of losing muscle. Natties trying to cut that hard are pretty much garenteed to lose muscle at those weight loss rates - hence the 1%BW/wk recommendation.
Well, again...I will push back on that notion and say it depends on exactly what you are doing.

I attack it from every angle and work on doing things that maximize my GH levels via Fasting, taking GABA and TMG(which also increases IGF-1) which also help protect muscle. L-Carnitine-Tartrate helps with keeping the mitochondrial machinery in the cells running smoothly and works in synergy with TMG.

Also focus strongly on blood sugar/improving insulin sensitivity via a wide array of things...obviously fasting but also taking Berberine/ALA and Chromium in the morning which work synergistically, Cinnulin PF prior to last meal of the day and ACV in water prior to bed.

Make sure I am drinking at least 17 ounces of water at a time 3-4 times a day as this has been shown to have a thermogenic effect on the body and increasing caloric burn rate by 25% for the next hour at least, and stay hydrated throughout the day.

Prioritizing getting 8 hours of sleep as much as I can, usually 5-6x a week if not everyday.

IMHO, all of these little things done in combination work synergystically with each other to create a metabolic blast furnace for fat along with carb cycling, short but intense workouts and plenty of walking.

There are VERY few people that maximize their body for fat burning efficiently to this degree so that may be why they are seeing suboptimal results. Most people can't even track caloric intake properly for a week, let alone optimize all the other factors involved.

They also tend to do way too much cardio which has a poor effect on their composition. Walking is the only thing they need to do and that does not hurt with muscle loss as it uses fat as its energy source via the oxidative pathway and not glycogen like the other types of cardio most people would do. Studies have also shown that consistent walking helps make your body hyper-efficient with fat burning throughout the rest of the day as well as act as a vacuum to suck glucose out of the bloodstream in the absence of insulin simply from the repetitive motion of the large muscles in the lower body, which again helps with blood sugar management. Doing this after meals and/or after workouts makes it even more efficient as you help lower the glucose spike from the meal or continue to burn the fatty acids released into the bloodstream from the workout rather than allowing them to be repackaged and re-stored.

People can say none of that stuff matters, but from my experience they DO matter...at least in terms of maximizing efficiency which is my goal.
 
Last edited:

Money & Muscle

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 22, 2023
Messages
1,426
Reaction score
1,537
Also focus strongly on blood sugar/improving insulin sensitivity via a wide array of things...obviously fasting but also taking Berberine/ALA and Chromium in the morning which work synergistically, Cinnulin PF prior to last meal of the day and ACV in water prior to bed.
Have you actually had your insulin resistance tested? Glucose Tolerance, Insulin Tolerance, Insulin Sensitivity, Glucose Infusion, etc? Have you seen any changes if so?


I am drinking at least 17 ounces of water at a time 3-4 times a day as this has been shown to have a thermogenic effect on the body and increasing caloric burn rate by 25% for the next hour at least, and stay hydrated throughout the day.
Source? I read that ice water does this to an extent, but not in any specific volume or dedicated caloric expenditure increase. I think it was something like 8oz ice water equated to 25 calories or something... idk, it was a while ago that I read this.
 

BackInTheGame78

Moderator
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
13,543
Reaction score
14,497
Have you actually had your insulin resistance tested? Glucose Tolerance, Insulin Tolerance, Insulin Sensitivity, Glucose Infusion, etc? Have you seen any changes if so?



Source? I read that ice water does this to an extent, but not in any specific volume or dedicated caloric expenditure increase. I think it was something like 8oz ice water equated to 25 calories or something... idk, it was a while ago that I read this.
Fasting glucose levels have always been borderline high or slightly high...like between 99-107 on tests going back several years.

Last glucose test I had done 2 weeks ago came back at 85.

Lowest I have ever seen.

In regards to water read the Discussion part down towards the bottom talking about another study done in 2003 that showed this metabolic increase and it applies equally for both men and women.

 

Scaramouche

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
3,924
Reaction score
1,079
Age
80
Location
Australia
Hi BackInTheGame,
When I was in my early thirties,I was skinny as a Fowls Face,too much work...
I caught,something called Q Fever while drenching Sheep,And no You Smart Alecs I wasn't Shaggving them,Only Kiwis do that ....I was very,very ill,the Old Quack I had opined that,My having so little Fat to burn made my illness very severe....Just Saying.
 

BackInTheGame78

Moderator
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
13,543
Reaction score
14,497
Hi BackInTheGame,
When I was in my early thirties,I was skinny as a Fowls Face,too much work...
I caught,something called Q Fever while drenching Sheep,And no You Smart Alecs I wasn't Shaggving them,Only Kiwis do that ....I was very,very ill,the Old Quack I had opined that,My having so little Fat to burn made my illness very severe....Just Saying.
Trust me, I will never be confused for skinny. I either look diesel or fat depending on of I am in shape or not.
 
Top