the economy

[Bonhomme]

Why not struggle? Life has never been easy, STFU and lean your shoulder into it.

And having to struggle is a good thing?

This country's lost its mind, like I said.

 

[SmoothTalker]

No, we shouldn't let people starve or freeze to death, but beyond that, yes, some struggling is necessary. There will always be scarcity, and by just giving out handouts, you're taking resources away from somewhere else.

Not to mention it's been proven that people have a lot less appreciation for something they didn't earn.

I think we both agree that there is a minumum standard that everyone should be provided with. We just don't agree on what that is.

I think everyone deserves food and a roof, and BASIC health care if they need it. Beyond that, it's whatever they get for themselves. I think we already provide this, and while I know there are people that fall through the cracks, we should focus on them specifically. There is no need to increase this minimum standard across the board.

On the other hand what I'm hearing from you is that everyone, regardless of effort, should basically be provided with a comfortable life. We sort of have that here in Canada, and let me tell you, it's stupid. I have known whole families that have stayed on Welfare for years on end - it provided enough money for them, so they didn't even bother looking for work. The rest of us tax payers are supporting people like that. That is all but guarunteed to happen if you provide too much for free.

So, provide the BASICS of life, yes. Want more? Struggle for it.

 

[bigjohnson]

This country's lost its mind, like I said.

It's clearly a terrible place, I recommend you leave as fast as you can and never come back.

 

[Bonhomme]

No, we shouldn't let people starve or freeze to death, but beyond that, yes, some struggling is necessary.

Not to mention it's been proven that people have a lot less appreciation for something they didn't earn.

I think we both agree that there is a minumum standard that everyone should be provided with. We just don't agree on what that is.

I think everyone deserves food and a roof, and BASIC health care if they need it. Beyond that, it's whatever they get for themselves.

So, provide the BASICS of life, yes. Want more? Struggle for it.

I'd say our point of disagreement is not so much what the minimum standard is, SmoothTalker, but whether or not it is provided.

But then, you are located in Canada. In the US, it is most certainly not. Nobody's guaranteed work that can bring in enough to provide those basics in the US, or aid if they can't find such employment, however honest, diligent, and hardworking they may be.

It certainly does not apply to health care in th US, except for emergency care, which is provided along with a bill that the large % of people who lack health insurance could never pay, in many cases. If they happen to have mental health problems (which are often genetic in their origin), in many places (such as my state) they are just tossed aside to live in the streets, if they're not so fortunate as to have family who can support them.

*********

Looks like the results are in, and about 1/3 or us think it's time to build a bunker, 1/3 think there will be a rebound (mostly soon), and 1/3 have no clue.
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[bigjohnson]

No, we shouldn't let people starve or freeze to death, but beyond that, yes, some struggling is necessary. There will always be scarcity, and by just giving out handouts, you're taking resources away from somewhere else.

Not to mention it's been proven that people have a lot less appreciation for something they didn't earn.

I think we both agree that there is a minumum standard that everyone should be provided with. We just don't agree on what that is.

I'm for providing bare minimum sustenance in return for public works. Unless a person is actually completely unable to work I'm OK with requiring either training or labor in exchange for the handouts they get. If they can't be bothered to at least put forth that level of effort then they're not hungry enough.

Cable TV is not a basic human need.

 

[SmoothTalker]

By the way, the local paper had a story recently about yet another attempt to unionize the Toyota factory here. I haven't heard the results yet, but the general opinion was that the bid was going to be voted down. The story also mentioned that over the last 15 years there have been multiple attempts to unionize the plant, all of which have been rejected by the workers.

Now, since union working conditions are so great and Toyota is exploitive, practically sweatshop, minimum wage work , why the hell would workers reject attempts by various unions to unionize them time and time again?

I'd love to hear an explanation.

 

[ketostix]

By the way, the local paper had a story recently about yet another attempt to unionize the Toyota factory here. I haven't heard the results yet, but the general opinion was that the bid was going to be voted down. The story also mentioned that over the last 15 years there have been multiple attempts to unionize the plant, all of which have been rejected by the workers.

Now, since union working conditions are so great and Toyota is exploitive, practically sweatshop, minimum wage work , why the hell would workers reject attempts by various unions to unionize them time and time again?

I'd love to hear an explanation.

Have you ever worked someplace and the management and suckups really put the pressure on workers to not unionize and so it doesn't? It's happened everytime I experienced a union trying to come in. And from my experience the crappier the job the less likely the workers are willingly to stand up for themselves. Let me tell you from experience, the japanese tend to "own" and controller their workers.

Anyway, you created a strawman to attack as I never said a Toyota assembly plant (the cream of the crop as far as foreign autoworker jobs go) was practically a minimum wage sweat shop. I said they generally pay a little less and have less benefits, and foreign companies have a long list of things that hurt the American economy, tax advantages, revenue going to foreign owners, etc. Not every job is in the assembly plant. Some of the sattelite jobs are much worse and they operate under other names. And, I never put all the blame on "Toyota" or whatever else foreign company. My point has been all along the blame ultimately lies on the customers and workers too. The foreign companies are just doing what is in their and their foreign nations' best interest.