Reyaj
Master Don Juan
I think this is an important chapter to get some real life examples. But if everyone wants to move on please say so.
That sentence contains at least five follow-up questions she WANTS you to ask. Where in Florida? What brought you here? How long have you been in the area? What do you miss? How does it compare to here?
She handed them to you on a silver platter. And you said, "Oh cool. I come here every week. I love this band. Ummm... pretty crowded tonight."
She smiled politely. Nodded. And never texted you back.
I was that guy for years. Talking too much. Listening too little. Panicking about my next sentence while she was literally feeding me the answers.
Then I found 22 rules that fixed the whole thing. Rule number one: shut up and listen. She'll tell you exactly what to say.
You asked her if she wanted to grab coffee. Then you asked if the time worked. Then you asked if the place was okay. Then you asked if she'd prefer tea.
Four questions. Four chances for her to say no. Four signals that you're terrified of making a decision.
Plan it. Pick the place. Pick the time. Tell her where to meet you. She'll either show up or she won't.
Either way, you look like a man instead of a scared little boy.
Poonani Maker said:You know they have audio cds of the book so you don't have to read. You can just goto sleep listening to that stuff...powerful...
I don't think the dandy is non-threatening to women though. Mick Jagger and Rudolph Valentino had an element of danger, right?Jayer said:Ok, it looks like I'm going to be the first to post my analysis.
The first example Greene portrayed was the feminine dandy. He used the Italian immigrant dancer as being attractive to females by the way he dressed (feminine of sort) and by his dance moves. When he finally made it on Cinema his character which while appearing feminine hold a mean streak (almost raping 1 woman he rescued) drove women mad.
Well I can't say I've had much experience in this role minus the mean streak where I'll admit I have treated some girls like **** and they kept wanting me more. But back to the lesson at hand. I guess pretty boys do get girls or at least are friends with a lot of girls. This of course is also true of homosexual men... and I think thats what I associate the dandy with... men who women find non threatning so therefore they open up to.
I'm guessing that luring a woman in by lowering her defenses with this character and then becoming a rake and jumping all over here might be key.....?
She calls you when her car breaks down. When she needs help moving. When some guy she's actually dating treats her badly.
You're the listener. The reliable one. The guy who would treat her so much better, if she'd just open her eyes.
She won't. You trained her to see you as the low-effort option — the friend who requires zero risk and zero investment. Every favor dug the hole deeper.
The "22 Rules" break the pattern. You'll stop auditioning for a role she already cast and become the man she chases instead. It starts with Rule 1.
Good points about Rudolph and Mick Jagger...FoolsCause said:I don't think the dandy is non-threatening to women though. Mick Jagger and Rudolph Valentino had an element of danger, right?
Women like the dandy because of their own narcissism. They're impressed by metrosexual tastes that reflect their own feminine tastes. However, the masculine rake wins out in the end because women generally like to be chased. A dandy has to become aggressive at the right moment or she thinks he's gay and quickly loses interest, or he is gay.
The coquette is, like you say, Jayer, the standard SoSuave play-it-cool strategy but with less emphasis on the *****+funny rake approach that's also popular here. Don't put the ***** on a pedestal. I really don't know if the coquette can work for most guys. The coquette strategy would seem to work for a guy who already has some physical or social-status plus going for him, being good-looking, tall, rich, musical, etc., so that women tend to fight to gain his attention without any attempt on his part to gain it, like The Bachelor on TV. SoSuave in spades, huh?
Yeah, the Rake has an element of the Charmer, but he's mainly about being the MAN and allowing the woman to be a WOMAN, which is why he turns on repressed, conservative prudes. For example, the mass appeal of Elvis in the conservative 50s. Women generally don't like making the initial moves themselves or they feel "dirty".Jayer said:I like the Rake just going for it..... but a lot of his actions seem AFC as it says he supplicates a lot to women... since he'd do anything to get them.... Doesn't too much attention spoil things?
You cant be AFC and a rake at the same time. After all a rake is successful with woman where as an AFC is to average to be as daring as the rake and frustrated that he's not getting women.Jayer said:Good points about Rudolph and Mick Jagger...
The dandy... I don't know so much.... if you could provide examples of what you indicated that'd be great
I like the Rake just going for it..... but a lot of his actions seem AFC as it says he supplicates a lot to women... since he'd do anything to get them.... Doesn't too much attention spoil things?
If you have any personal examples you can share for any of these characters that would be great.
We should move onto the charmer soon
BlackJackal said:You cant be AFC and a rake at the same time. After all a rake is successful with woman where as an AFC is to average to be as daring as the rake and frustrated that he's not getting women.
Dinner ran three hours. She laughed at everything. You walked her to her car thinking this one's locked in.
Then: nothing. Two texts. No reply. What happened?
You did what most men do on a great date. You filled every silence, answered every question, and left her with nothing to wonder about. No mystery. Nothing to sit with when she got home.
Rule 3 of the "22 Rules" changes the ending: tell her a little, hold back the rest, and let her imagination do the chasing. The ghosting stops too.
I agree Rollo. While I'll admit this is probably the character I associate most with and I found this chapter to be one of the best in the book, it seems more suited as a Law of Power rather than that of seduction. The examples of women charming men will always be in effect... but the example Greene gives regarding Disreali and the Queen..... he basically just used this for political advancement and not so much to get her naked.....Rollo Tomassi said:The problem with the Charmer is that it necessitates a guy already having killed his inner AFC and is confident enough to know when to push and pull it. Most women in this era are already used to the behaviors of a Charmer being associated with the Nice Guy, so when you read the biographies describing this seduction type bear in mind they happened long before the sexual revolution.
Good metaphorsFoolsCause said:Greene notes that ideal targets for seduction are women who are unhappy, discontented in some way. If you can identify her weak spot, and hit it, seems like the chances are good if you can keep up the facade, though there is the danger of being tagged a Nice Guy if misapplied. Referring to Paris seems to often work. What poor, little girl doesn't smile at the thought of going to Paris? Just don't let her know you haven't the money to take her there.
The Charmer is the Wizard of seduction, casting his concocted spell on the target, the Rake is the Fighter, blood and guts, full contact (kino), the Coquette is the Thief of hearts, giving little but getting much in return. The Charismatic is the Cleric, attracting her devotion with his zealotry for a higher purpose.
Dinner ran three hours. She laughed at everything. You walked her to her car thinking this one's locked in.
Then: nothing. Two texts. No reply. What happened?
You did what most men do on a great date. You filled every silence, answered every question, and left her with nothing to wonder about. No mystery. Nothing to sit with when she got home.
Rule 3 of the "22 Rules" changes the ending: tell her a little, hold back the rest, and let her imagination do the chasing. The ghosting stops too.
It's been about a year since I read this book, but it seems down and depressed isn't very charming. I don't know the context of that quote "adapt to the victim's moods." Maybe I can review it if I can find the book.Jayer said:I think the important thing to take from this chapter is that of having good energry and being positive. Using flattery in a timely manner. One thing he says that I'm not clear on is
"You should adapt to the victim's moods"
So if he says you should be positive and happy... is he now saying you should be down and depressed if your target is?
If someone can explain the mirroring aspect of this it would be appreciated....
Thanks Fools. Its appreciated.FoolsCause said:It's been about a year since I read this book, but it seems down and depressed isn't very charming. I don't know the context of that quote "adapt to the victim's moods." Maybe I can review it if I can find the book.
You asked her if she wanted to grab coffee. Then you asked if the time worked. Then you asked if the place was okay. Then you asked if she'd prefer tea.
Four questions. Four chances for her to say no. Four signals that you're terrified of making a decision.
Plan it. Pick the place. Pick the time. Tell her where to meet you. She'll either show up or she won't.
Either way, you look like a man instead of a scared little boy.