Stagnation at SoSuave: When Frame is Weakness

ohrein

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Time? Takes all of a minute-and-a-half to get rejected on an approach. Sending a text to girl that might not be interested takes all of 20 seconds. You can game extensively with maybe an hour or two a week that would've been spent sitting on your couch watching TV.

I stay pretty busy, but there are still at least an hour or two a day that I have nothing to show for.

My issue with this is that so many people view interest level as something static and not something that fluctuates constantly. For some women, maybe you fit their physical ideal or look like their dad or their ex-boyfriend or something, and she'll be high interest from the open. But most girls need to experience you first, before they even know whether they're interested or not.

And it's also built on the premise that all females have equal amounts of game. AW's and Cluster B's do high interest better than anyone. They chase aloofness and devalidation harder than anyone. If your game is only bringing low quality women in your life, it might, just maybe, be a case that your approach works best on those types of women. A shy, inexperienced girl with healthy self-esteem? She might not even make eye contact with you and might not start investing in you at all unless you go first. What do you really have to lose by letting other people experience you?
Valid points. It may take very little time for individual women, but over a week it does add up. It does make me question why I don't really bother with some things like day game or approaching at events anymore. I certainly talk to people, I'm not shy. But I see what you mean. I'm not sure why I lost interest in it but you've made me reconsider it.

Interest level fluctuating is the problem for me. What I want out of a woman, which is a level of commitment to developing together as people, seems impossible with how most women are wired. They aren't interested in ME, they're interested in how they feel and that changes on a whim from moment to moment. Maybe I do attract the wrong type of women, as I am the typical aloof guy. But my last plate was based heavily on our sense of humors meshing and having a lot of FUN with the same results. So, I'm not sure it's that simple either. I am fun and easy going when meeting people so I don't think I scare off or ignore shy women. I'm certainly open to whatever but I have standards that make meeting worthwhile women very rare.

But I love your reply. You have made me think, sir. I will ponder about why I'm leaning more towards MGTOW more thoroughly. Maybe it is based on poor premises.
 

fastlife

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I reflected a bit more on the original post. What do suggest to break free from this frame?

I for example feel old and complacent. I don't take risks anymore like I used to when I came on this board. Although not very "successful", my life was much richer back then. I used to get pretty good motivation from being angry at my ****ty life. Now that anger is replaced by dull comfort.

It's like my ego made me lose this incredible desire to experience awesome things (such as hot women, adventures, whatever). You describe the problem perfectly but I don't know where to start.
I'm not pretending like I've transcended all the issues in the OP (a lot of those were directed at myself, as much as anyone). I still catch myself internalizing rationalizations that protect my ego and allow me to stick to my comfort zones.

Like, I grew up in an environment where my emotions weren't validated--mom and dad were both a little emotionally unstable so I had to be this stoic little almost adult-like figure; I've never felt comfortable expressing my emotions (or even feeling them, really). Emotions were scary and bad. So when I read something like, Women want you to be the rock and to never show emotions, I was like, Hell yeah! I don't have to experience that type of discomfort by actually putting myself on the line. And then we reaffirm this comfort-zone by looking at our past--I loved that girl and then she ****ed me over and invalidated all those emotions, never mind all of the other issues and weaknesses we brought to that relationship.

But the problem with that mindset is that there is joy in self-expression. And girls, really, crave to experience you emotionally. Passion is more seductive than aloofness, probably for the vast majority of women (though you can always find girls who also grew up in emotionally invalidating environments and'll use you for their repetition compulsion of trying desperately to get acknowledgement from an emotionally unavailable male--and these women will probably be 'wh0res,' further reinforcing the 'correctness' of your ego-investments). So I've focused on self-expression for its own sake--I'm not saying to go all Oprah, but be honest with yourself and allow girls (and more importantly yourself) to experience your full range of feeling. Whether the girl responds to it well or not doesn't make your emotional experience any less valid (though I've found they can't get enough :)).

Or I've never been a great texter--all of my text convos were boring. So when I read Don't text women like their little girlfriend. Text game doesn't exist, I was like Hell yeah! Don't have to work on that--even though I have friends that I've seen text their way into girls' pants over and over. But then I started having some girls, really cool girls that I actually liked, start blowing themselves out when I'd only hit them up once a week to hang out. Low interest--oh well, their loss. But then I started texting some of these girls--just to see what would happen and to see if I could make those interactions entertaining for myself. And a couple of them came back around enthusiastically. Some were even super high interest--I just wasn't giving them enough of myself and they figured I just didn't give a damn. But whether it worked or not, I ended up having a blast.

But to take all of that a step further, all of the times in my life that I've been the most fulfilled were the times when I was struggling toward something or experiencing something new. All of my closest friendships were formed with the guys I struggled with--the guys I played football with (especially the ones who came in with me as freshmen), the guys I worked at sh1tty jobs with, the guys I met those first few weeks of college when we didn't know anybody, the guys who went out with me to try and figure out how the hell to meet women. While men instinctually crave comfort and safety--whether that's in the form of a cushy job, or the illusion of unconditional love, or the avoidance of women, or sitting on the couch instead of going to the gym, or watching Netflix instead of going out--we are built to struggle daily. We're built to see what's over that hill. We're built to see what happens when we eat that bright red tomato that looks poisonous as ****.

So see what happens. Play around; make it fun. You're never too old to experience something new--but it'll require you to extend yourself more to get that emotion than it did when you were younger (novelty, past a certain point, requires creativity to attain). I can promise you that there are still aspects of your personality that you're not comfortable with sharing with other people--yet--but freedom comes from that self-expression. Always find ways to push yourself and to make things new--for you and her. I'd highly recommend meditating if you aren't doing that already (go more in depth about it here: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/index.php?threads/1st-post-need-to-turn-my-life-around.232939/#post-2323986). And RSD has some great free content on Youtube (Julien especially) about the concepts of 'self-amusement' and 'emotional expression' (once I got past my ego-investment of 'PUA is lame, I don't need help to meet girls').
 
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salinechow

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I think you are confusing the issues.

Frame isn't about not trying new things, not feeling hurt, putting down down women, avoiding rejection. Frame is about always having CONTROL of the situation. Frame is about not waiting for the girl to make a decision based on what's good for her and and her emotions at that certain period in time. That's why when guys ask questions on text and they get no response, they freak out, because they have lost control. That's why when a girl says 'maybe', 'I'll let you know,'. 'I'll think about.' Guys freak out because their is no definite answer, it's up in the air, control is lost. The only way to maintain frame is to not be desperate and not need anything, or the girl will destroy you.

To not try new things or go on dates, that's being lazy and unmotivated and un ambitious.



Even be the prize for yourself doesn't really work. If you think you are the prize, but society doesn't care or doesn't need you, you are in trouble.

You have to be something that people NEED, then you are the prize. It's all about what you can DO for people, whether you can turn them on being a famous actor or fix their car or give them food to eat. If you can't DO anything for anyone, doesn't matter how much of a prize you think you are for yourself or the girl, Soceity will chew you up and spit you out.
Excellent post
 

Huffman

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Awesome. Thanks for the explanation and the stories to which I can totally relate ;)
Incidentially I had an incredible day today; a couple of opportunities presented themselves for me to take a little risk and do some bold things - I had a blast and relished the emotion.

Definitely getting back to it now. You really spelled it out and helped me see more clearly. Just hope I can incorporate this more into my day to day life now - I tend to forget the best stuff after a while, especially after a hard day at work.
 

ohrein

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Does deserve a bump. Reflecting on what I wrote a couple of years later, you were spot on. Especially "AW's and Cluster B's do high interest better than anyone. They chase aloofness and devalidation harder than anyone." This was a big game changer for me because I noticed a giant pattern with the women I was having the most success with.

I stopped "playing the game" so hard and became more true to myself and it got great results. You do need to build your own frame rather than stick to the absolute principles. I enjoy the process a lot more now. And the woman I ended up with after all this? Highest quality I've dated. If I had met her two years ago, no way she would have been attracted to "my frame". In fact, giving her honest emotional praise, telling her how much I appreciate her (when appropriate), causes the highest spikes in interest levels with her over anything else.

Great post and thank you.
 

fastlife

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Does deserve a bump. Reflecting on what I wrote a couple of years later, you were spot on. Especially "AW's and Cluster B's do high interest better than anyone. They chase aloofness and devalidation harder than anyone." This was a big game changer for me because I noticed a giant pattern with the women I was having the most success with.

I stopped "playing the game" so hard and became more true to myself and it got great results. You do need to build your own frame rather than stick to the absolute principles. I enjoy the process a lot more now. And the woman I ended up with after all this? Highest quality I've dated. If I had met her two years ago, no way she would have been attracted to "my frame". In fact, giving her honest emotional praise, telling her how much I appreciate her (when appropriate), causes the highest spikes in interest levels with her over anything else.

Great post and thank you.
It's definitely cool--and a little surreal--to look at old threads and to see how you've grown & how your perspective has changed & how your perspective back then stacks up against your real life experiences in the interim. Even as the OP 2 years ago, every now & then I'll find myself backsliding and falling back into old patterns with women that I know aren't good for me.

Sounds like you've found a good one; all the best, enjoy it & if things don't work out, take whatever lessons you can from it. Being authentic to yourself, and letting the other pieces of your life fall into place (or out of it) accordingly, is scary & doesn't always yield short term results, but, man, it feels good--and like you, I've met the highest quality people--both friends & lovers--when I've been the most within my own frame.
 

sosousage

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good thread but its not the risk of rejection what keeps me from dating more cute girls. its their behavior.

fat and ugly girl - insecure to the point it pushes u away
average girl - you see her flaws BUT she is nice to you, and you get sex, instead of headache
cute girl - way tooo entitled, big requirements

if message conveyed in this thread is to be yourself then you will likely fail at some point with hot girl. she wont like the way u dress, or ur friends, or maybe other guy has better car or more followers on IG. maybe your version of yourself is quiet guy while other guy is born leader or charismatic party addict. hot girls dont give sex to librarians and nerds
 

fastlife

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if message conveyed in this thread is to be yourself then you will likely fail at some point with hot girl. she wont like the way u dress, or ur friends, or maybe other guy has better car or more followers on IG. maybe your version of yourself is quiet guy while other guy is born leader or charismatic party addict.
& that's her loss ;) lol. All you can do is give them the opportunity to meet you. From your perspective, I 'fail' with hot girls a handful of times a month. From my perspective, they fail to capitalize on a chance to meet a cool guy who'll give 'em a good time.

good thread but its not the risk of rejection what keeps me from dating more cute girls. its their behavior.

fat and ugly girl - insecure to the point it pushes u away
average girl - you see her flaws BUT she is nice to you, and you get sex, instead of headache
cute girl - way tooo entitled, big requirements
Lol. Rationalizations bro. Listen, if one girl treats you like sh1t, it's probably her; if most girls do, it's probably you--more specifically your behavior, more specifically the beliefs & emotions you have that drive your behavior. I live in one the 'hard' cities that guys b1tch about being impossible all the time. If I can do what I do here, any guy can do it anywhere. And when I'm in other locales, it's cakewalk.

And some more food for thought, and how I know you're rationalizing: Do you want to sleep with her? I'm not saying, Does she live up to your expectations of a life partner or the mother of your children. I'm asking, Do you want to sleep with her? If the answer to that question is, Yes (and for hot girls, most guys would sleep with her if she showed up at their door in lingerie & tossed you on the bed, without a single thought to her 'character'), then the fact that you're focusing on superfluous information that isn't even relevant because she ain't into you (yet) so it wouldn't matter if she was the nicest gal in the world, is an excuse. So it might not be 'fear of rejection,' you can call it something else, but it is an ego-preservation response that doesn't serve you in any capacity. Rejection is cheap. Commitment is costly. If rejection feels expensive, that's entirely an emotional issue.
 

ohrein

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if message conveyed in this thread is to be yourself
It's not just be yourself, it's that you need to construct your version of frame with red pill understanding.

In my experience, following extreme alpha frame was good for getting laid but attracted fairly low quality women. I don't want to be randomly banging chicks the rest of my life, I'd rather be single. But I was stuck in that extremist frame and getting "success" but not my success. I'd rather take a shot an LTR with the understanding that it could end at any moment than do what I was doing so I drastically switched my approach. So I found the highest quality woman I could, who had the highest interest, who perceives me as much higher SMV and am paying attention to everything going on. If at some point that changes, so be it. It's what makes me happy while it works.
 

The Diver

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I stopped "playing the game" so hard and became more true to myself and it got great results.
I just lost a great prospective plate (which I already spend the night with ) due to "Playing the game too hard".

Reading this thread open my eyes to the mistakes I did. (and few more in the past).


You do need to build your own frame rather than stick to the absolute principles.
I have to admit, although I have my own frame, it's too rigid.

Food for thought and time for growth.
 

Spaz

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It's not just be yourself, it's that you need to construct your version of frame with red pill understanding.

In my experience, following extreme alpha frame was good for getting laid but attracted fairly low quality women. I don't want to be randomly banging chicks the rest of my life, I'd rather be single. But I was stuck in that extremist frame and getting "success" but not my success. I'd rather take a shot an LTR with the understanding that it could end at any moment than do what I was doing so I drastically switched my approach. So I found the highest quality woman I could, who had the highest interest, who perceives me as much higher SMV and am paying attention to everything going on. If at some point that changes, so be it. It's what makes me happy while it works.
Perhaps you could try my way.

Select women base on their job description.

Last year i was into kindergarten teachers and tree huggers. Right now I'm into nurses.

You can afford to be selective and choosy now.

As for me, nurses are on shift, gives me plenty of flexibility. Further more they are clean and rather feminine as compared to others.
 

ohrein

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Right now I'm into nurses.
Oh boy I do love me a woman in medicine. Smart, empathetic. Only problem a lot of them don't have time to stay fit. But nothing makes me weaker than a nurse or a doctor. I was hunting them on Tinder for ages!
 

Spaz

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Oh boy I do love me a woman in medicine. Smart, empathetic. Only problem a lot of them don't have time to stay fit. But nothing makes me weaker than a nurse or a doctor. I was hunting them on Tinder for ages!
I sense and suspect that women who's on Tinder aren't in the right frame of mind.

I was visiting someone in the hospital and ended up talking to a cute nurse, we chatted and towards the end I gave her my business card, ask her to call me at the weekend for burgers/fries and told her if shes amusing I'll take her to the movies.

She called the next day. Ended up meeting a few of her friends for drinks in a club. The rest is history.
 

logicallefty

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This thread is worthy of the SS Hall of Excellence. Moving...
 

logicallefty

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Oh boy I do love me a woman in medicine. Smart, empathetic. Only problem a lot of them don't have time to stay fit. But nothing makes me weaker than a nurse or a doctor. I was hunting them on Tinder for ages!
If I am courting a woman nurses are the #1 Profession that I like to see. Most nurses are genuinely caring and if they are willing to do what they do for the patients, it’s genuine enough that they will also usually care for their man too. Nursing programs are rigorous and if they are willing to go through that I think it’s a sign of strength on their part.
 

Red Legg

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If I am courting a woman nurses are the #1 Profession that I like to see. Most nurses are genuinely caring and if they are willing to do what they do for the patients, it’s genuine enough that they will also usually care for their man too. Nursing programs are rigorous and if they are willing to go through that I think it’s a sign of strength on their part.
I have been with several nurses throughout my dating life and they were all VERY freaky in the sheets....It must have something to do with being very familiar or comfortable around naked bodies and pain.
 

elunium

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Turn OFF your computer and stop reading and rereading seduction knowledge. The only true benifet of the seduction material was not in the HOWs of getting seduction, it was opening your eyes of how Nature actually works. - Pook
 
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