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Stagnation at SoSuave: When Frame is Weakness

fastlife

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You know what you like: You don't cold approach because you don't like it. You don't go to night clubs because you don't like them. You don't text girls because you don't like it. You next first and ask questions later; better safe than sorry, and it's damned convenient if you can write off a woman as 'low interest' before risking rejection. You don't talk to girls at all because there just aren't quality women where you live. Or you only date girls you aren't even attracted to because then you'll have the upper hand and hot girls--well, they aren't really all that great anyway.

You call this frame.

You rationalize your stagnation:
  • I'm the prize.
  • My time's too valuable.
  • All women are wh0res and backstabbers, etc.
  • Alphas do this and betas do that (always self-identifying with the Alpha).
But you're still not happy. You found SoSuave and constructed a little comfort zone, where all your new ego-investments will be constantly reinforced by a chorus of assenting voices. You don't lose anymore, like you used to before you got hurt. You can't go back to feeling hurt--so feeling nothing is the next best thing--and the battle you were wounded in, well it wasn't really worth fighting for anyway. And--and--and you're getting laid, right? At least a little more than you were before; you must be doing things right this time--even if you've been doing the same thing for years with the same results with the same women.

But really your 'frame' is a prison. It isn't strength. It doesn't allow you to try new things. It doesn't allow you to experience the full range of emotions (Wait, I forgot, emotions can only be weakness). Really you're just afraid and practicing pain-avoidance. Even though pain is what inspired you to get to this point, in the first place, you've gotten far enough.

You're still afraid that that 20 y/o hottie won't think you're alpha if you allow yourself to experience her fully or, god forbid, play around a little bit. You're only alpha if people think you are, and if you next people before they get close enough to make that judgement, you never have to face it. And if you growl loud enough, none of the members here will call you on it. And it's gotten you results that are good enough (even though they're not all that great, it's better than pushing yourself out of your comfort zone).

Which brings us to the single most misinterpreted mantra of SoSuave culture: Be the prize.

The natural extension for finishing this thought is Be the prize (for women). Search the forums for Be the prize and this is the context you'll find. But it's wrong. You should be the prize for yourself. The prize is watching yourself develop; it's putting yourself in situations that you aren't comfortable with and feeling the rush of pushing through those discomforts; it's having fun and enjoying the person you are, even if it costs you the girl, instead of being a feelingless drone who gets a little pvssy here and there (so you must be doing it right). You're never wasting your time with anything you do, involving women or anything else, if you're learning from it and pushing yourself to be a fuller person than you were before.
 
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WanderingMan

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It is tough putting yourself out there, I 100% agree. It's easier dating a women you feel is "beneath" you, that way you are safe.

I feel when it come to: "be the prize". For some, that is a way to circumvent the feeling of rejection. If she rejects you, then she is rejecting a prize. It's her bad, not yours. In a way, it's respecting yourself. If you don't respect yourself, she won't either. When it comes to relationships, men have it easier. Women, for the most part, have one thing going for them: their looks. If they are beautiful, then they will never sleep alone, if they choose not to - someone will always be willing to take them in. Men, however, have more options when it comes to attraction - other than L/M/S (looks/money/status). Although these help, a man's personality, charm, charisma, attitude, sense of humor, drive, etc., can go along way in attracting a female. These attributes attached to a woman help of course, but looks will always be at the forefront when it comes to a woman attracting a male. L/M/S may and will help men when it comes to attracting a woman - but that is in the initial stages - and will work by themselves for lower quality woman. BUT a man's personality can and will go a long way with a quality desirable woman. And game can be natural (who you are - "for yourself") or it can be scripted (your persona - "for women"). It's when "game" comes natural and is a part of you, is when you truly believe you are the prize. She will feel it and know it. Her $hit tests will passed with flying colors. You are the prize here, why would you put up with that? The problem occurs when you are faking it. When you believe you really aren't a prize, she WILL eventually see through your charade. Life can be a b1tch, you are allowed to experience it. But "a prize" will move forward, will deal with it, will keep going - he is strong. He won't live in a glass house. He can feel emotions, but those emotions won't alter his course. The MAN is too logical for that, she is emotional driven therefore she needs the Yin to her Yang. She needs someone who can deal with these emotions, someone who can keep going. You can show moments of weakness, MAN is human after all, but it's how you handle this weakness. Does this weakness define you? What is your next move? Usually these types of men do have some form of L/M/S, at least that's what she sees when she meets someone with L/M/S. His pedigree has made him attractive, therefore he will be successful - like his ancestors, who have mated with attractive people. Money and status come to those who have persevered and have been successful. This is what they see. However, that is not always the case, it is not a simple equation. These L/M/S men, can show they are not who they appear to be. And they will show it if they are not. Then the desirable woman will move on when he proves himself not to be the prize she had hoped/assumed he would be. The L/M/S's do have an easier time getting in the door but that doesn't mean they have an easier time staying inside.

How do you become a prize? I don't know all those answers, and I don't think it's easy or else everyone would do it. You can't just wake up one day and believe it and then at the same time become it. But the mind is a powerful thing, and every journey begins with that single step. I believe that almost anyone CAN be a prize. Would it be harder for some than others? Probably. I don't think sosuave is wrong for preaching it. And I've read a lot of posts about self improvement....which probably would help in your journey to becoming a prize. Also, saying and doing are two different things. You/I can SAY anything we want, but I believe that the prizes, first and foremost, are the ones that DO. Whether it's going to the gym, or reading that book on self improvement, they are the ones that accomplish these things that ANYONE can do but most choose not to.

I believe that would be a great thread to start: "How to become a prize - a step by step guide" Any true prizes out there?
 

CuddleJunkie

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I've thinking this for a lot time, and I have said it sometimes. SoSuave is going the full MGTOW route, and rejecting anything that has to do with game. It was always more of a healthy balance between the two ends of the manosphere spectrum.

And this is normal, people get tired of dealing with bull****, but maybe, after relaxing for a couple of months, people get in that comfort zone of MGTOW and forget to go out again to be DonJuans.
 

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wifehunter

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One things for sure...

You have to actually like women, in general. Not just for sex!

After that, it's child's play!
 

fastlife

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In a way, it's respecting yourself. If you don't respect yourself, she won't either.
Fallacy I was talking about. If you really respected yourself, you wouldn't give a **** if one woman out of 4 billion respected you or not--or require the respect of anyone else, for that matter (but at that point, I'm not sure anyone could help but treat you with respect).

I believe that would be a great thread to start: "How to become a prize - a step by step guide" Any true prizes out there?
1. Decide you're the prize.
2. Believe it.
*If you have mental hangups preventing you from making this belief, or you still need external affirmation, meditate.
**Expect people who are ego-invested in 'certain ways of doing things' to use shaming language like arrogant, delusional, etc.


The MAN is too logical for that, she is emotional driven therefore she needs the Yin to her Yang. She needs someone who can deal with these emotions, someone who can keep going.
Logic never made any woman wet, and it's never made any man happy (though it might keep you from being too unhappy). The idea that a man should be the rock is the logical solution to an emotional woman--but I'm not sure it's the best one. The common factor in the dissolution of every relationship is that the man becomes just that--a rock; a complacent, predictable, emotionally watered-down appliance that no longer stimulates the woman. This might be enough to keep a woman around ostensibly, but it won't be enough to command the full extent of her focus (but even Alphas have women seek outside emotional stimulation).

I haven't put in enough time with any one plate to know for sure about the long term results; but I've been focusing more on bombarding girls emotionally. When your own emotions are grounded and aren't reactive to hers and you see each moment with a girl as an opportunity to learn more about yourself and try new things, when your ego isn't at stake, you can literally give a girl a different emotional experience with you from minute to minute.

I'm not the amusement park where she can plant her little emotional roller coaster and eventually get bored riding her own emotional waves; I am the roller coaster, I make the tracks for her emotions.
 

Yewki

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Stagnation at SoSuave: When Frame is Weakness
Great post. In this case though I wouldn't call frame a weakness, but more of an illusion. The illusion of having a strong frame, by setting up rules and boundaries so that you don't expose yourself to big failure but at the same time you get some results.

It's kind of like meticulously building a sturdy house with a strong foundation... but secluded, in the middle of no where. Then calling it a great value, pretending it's worth millions. Yeah, it might be a well constructed house, but look where you built it. It has little real estate value, no one wants to be there. There was little risk involved, and consequently not much reward.
 

JohnChops

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aha I love this so much man, great post. We've all been there, we read all this material, think we are "alpha" but we never approach or we approach sparingly, we never just go for it. Many people are so ashamed to be who they are or care what people think of them, it's seen in clubs ALL the time. Those guys on the side lines are so nervous about being a goofy dancer and that people will laugh at them, ultimately making a fool of themselves but who gives a sh1t. Those goofy dancers are the ones who put themselves out there, they are the ones having fun, and more than likely those goofy dancers meet goofier female counterparts on the dance floor.

A+ submission.
 

BeExcellent

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Those goofy dancers are the ones who put themselves out there, they are the ones having fun, and more than likely those goofy dancers meet goofier female counterparts on the dance floor.
Yup. You gain so much when you lose your "give a shlt!"
 

WanderingMan

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Fallacy I was talking about. If you really respected yourself, you wouldn't give a **** if one woman out of 4 billion respected you or not--or require the respect of anyone else, for that matter (but at that point, I'm not sure anyone could help but treat you with respect).
Right, that was what I was trying to get across: "If she rejects you, then she is rejecting a prize. It's her bad, not yours."

You're not a prize for or because of her. You are a prize because you are a prize.


1. Decide you're the prize.
2. Believe it.
*If you have mental hangups preventing you from making this belief, or you still need external affirmation, meditate.
**Expect people who are ego-invested in 'certain ways of doing things' to use shaming language like arrogant, delusional, etc.


This is what I was saying, it's not this^ easy. If it was, then everyone could do it. You can't just "believe it". It takes a little more than deciding to actually believe. The glass house effect. You could think you believe it, then a few stones thrown your way, then next thing you know you're worse of than when you started. Like poster above said, a foundation needs to be there, but a foundation with some meaning to it - laying that foundation may be the hardest part. Once that is laid though, then the prize can be built. Too many people take the quick and easy path.

Logic never made any woman wet, and it's never made any man happy (though it might keep you from being too unhappy).
I believe you're wrong here, if I'm understanding you correctly. Logic has made many women wet. Logic makes a man say: "No". That has made plenty of women wet. When their emotional tampon guy friends are saying: Yes, Yes, Yes. Logic makes the "rock" say No. Which, in turn, makes her wet. And logic has made plenty of men happy.... :confused: Logic makes the world go round, logic puts money in your pocket...

The idea that a man should be the rock is the logical solution to an emotional woman--but I'm not sure it's the best one. The common factor in the dissolution of every relationship is that the man becomes just that--a rock; a complacent, predictable, emotionally watered-down appliance that no longer stimulates the woman. This might be enough to keep a woman around ostensibly, but it won't be enough to command the full extent of her focus (but even Alphas have women seek outside emotional stimulation). I haven't put in enough time with any one plate to know for sure about the long term results; but I've been focusing more on bombarding girls emotionally. When your own emotions are grounded and aren't reactive to hers and you see each moment with a girl as an opportunity to learn more about yourself and try new things, when your ego isn't at stake, you can literally give a girl a different emotional experience with you from minute to minute.

I'm not the amusement park where she can plant her little emotional roller coaster and eventually get bored riding her own emotional waves; I am the roller coaster, I make the tracks for her emotions.
There's a time and a place. I understand being predictable and boring isn't necessarily a good thing, but an emotional roller coaster isn't either. Not for the long term anyway. You may be a fun ride for a short while, but no one wants to live on a roller coaster.
 

Trump

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You know what you like: You don't cold approach because you don't like it. You don't go to night clubs because you don't like them. You don't text girls because you don't like it. You next first and ask questions later; better safe than sorry, and it's damned convenient if you can write off a woman as 'low interest' before risking rejection. You don't talk to girls at all because there just aren't quality women where you live. Or you only date girls you aren't even attracted to because then you'll have the upper hand and hot girls--well, they aren't really all that great anyway.

You call this frame.

You rationalize your stagnation:
  • I'm the prize.
  • My time's too valuable.
  • All women are wh0res and backstabbers, etc.
  • Alphas do this and betas do that (always self-identifying with the Alpha).
But you're still not happy. You found SoSuave and constructed a little comfort zone, where all your new ego-investments will be constantly reinforced by a chorus of assenting voices. You don't lose anymore, like you used to before you got hurt. You can't go back to feeling hurt--so feeling nothing is the next best thing--and the battle you were wounded in, well it wasn't really worth fighting for anyway. And--and--and you're getting laid, right? At least a little more than you were before; you must be doing things right this time--even if you've been doing the same thing for years with the same results with the same women.

But really your 'frame' is a prison. It isn't strength. It doesn't allow you to try new things. It doesn't allow you to experience the full range of emotions (Wait, I forgot, emotions can only be weakness). Really you're just afraid and practicing pain-avoidance. Even though pain is what inspired you to get to this point, in the first place, you've gotten far enough.
I think you are confusing the issues.

Frame isn't about not trying new things, not feeling hurt, putting down down women, avoiding rejection. Frame is about always having CONTROL of the situation. Frame is about not waiting for the girl to make a decision based on what's good for her and and her emotions at that certain period in time. That's why when guys ask questions on text and they get no response, they freak out, because they have lost control. That's why when a girl says 'maybe', 'I'll let you know,'. 'I'll think about.' Guys freak out because their is no definite answer, it's up in the air, control is lost. The only way to maintain frame is to not be desperate and not need anything, or the girl will destroy you.

To not try new things or go on dates, that's being lazy and unmotivated and un ambitious.

You're still afraid that that 20 y/o hottie won't think you're alpha if you allow yourself to experience her fully or, god forbid, play around a little bit. You're only alpha if people think you are, and if you next people before they get close enough to make that judgement, you never have to face it. And if you growl loud enough, none of the members here will call you on it. And it's gotten you results that are good enough (even though they're not all that great, it's better than pushing yourself out of your comfort zone).

Which brings us to the single most misinterpreted mantra of SoSuave culture: Be the prize.

The natural extension for finishing this thought is Be the prize (for women).
Even be the prize for yourself doesn't really work. If you think you are the prize, but society doesn't care or doesn't need you, you are in trouble.

You have to be something that people NEED, then you are the prize. It's all about what you can DO for people, whether you can turn them on being a famous actor or fix their car or give them food to eat. If you can't DO anything for anyone, doesn't matter how much of a prize you think you are for yourself or the girl, Soceity will chew you up and spit you out.
 

Stugots26

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Frame is valuable most for cutting through the nonsense that most women try to use. When you hold a mirror up to them, the good in the good ones and the bad in the bad ones comes out really fast.

For example, not dealing in half measures or fence straddling. Pretty facades disappear really fast when insecure women realize that you're not willing to indulge indecisiveness. But it tells you everything you need to know.

Similarly, when insecure women realize that you're going to objectively make decisions about what's in your best interest rather than get emotionally attached to them, they tend to balk. The insecure women want you to get emotionally invested really fast so that you make excuses for their bad behavior and tolerate it, and when you remain objective, they tend to realize that you're not going to be a sucker and start looking for a man more likely to be a chump.

Those are the advantages. Frame is about being your own man and realizing that you don't have to do anything but be yourself, and a woman will either like you or she won't. But a lot of men miss the "being yourself" part.
 

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Slash Dolo

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*Slow clap*

You are so on the money. I see this "one strike you're out" mentality way, way too much here in regards to women. It's ridiculous. "Oh, she didn't text back within 4 hours? She got sick before the date? Next her ass." I've seen posters call others "women" as an insult on here... which is funny, as this whole site is essentially dedicated to understanding women. Posters will throw out "white knight" and other **** too when you don't treat women as objects on here. The maturity/mental level is straight out of middle school.

It's all an ego thing; boys pretending to be men and keeping their ego at satisfactory levels by passing up on an opportunity at sex, a relationship, or whatever because of some ridiculous standards that are never, or rarely, going to be met. The insulting tone towards women are 99% of the time in direct correlation with being hurt by women in the past. Their fragile egos just can't get over it, so they come here to dump on the opposite sex. It's sad.

Good f*ckin' post man.
 

ohrein

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I'll add to that what some posters said before :

1. Only retards deal in absolutes.
2. Always calibrate.

And I am sure you know that one :

[...] Be like water my friend [...]
This.

I think if people are fooling themselves into thinking it's what they want then the OP has valid points. But I've been on both sides of the coin and I honestly don't like investing my time into women. If you really don't want to **** around with low to mid interest women then there's nothing wrong with being strict on how you're treated. As long as you're doing it for you. That is congruent to being the prize for you. By doing things you don't want to do to get a woman, you're trading your time and happiness for a woman. Everyone has the right to decide where that slider goes because only they know what they want from life.

However, if your tolerance for women is driven by insecurity and fear then you have a problem you need to work on. There's nothing wrong with the concept of nexting low quality or low interest women. There is a looooooooot of them.
 

fastlife

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This is what I was saying, it's not this^ easy. If it was, then everyone could do it. You can't just "believe it". It takes a little more than deciding to actually believe. The glass house effect. You could think you believe it, then a few stones thrown your way, then next thing you know you're worse of than when you started.
Of course you can. If you can't take responsibility for your own thoughts and your own beliefs, then you'll forever be a victim of 'it's just the way I am.' If your self-concept is that susceptible to external feedback, then you're not there yet.

Like poster above said, a foundation needs to be there, but a foundation with some meaning to it - laying that foundation may be the hardest part. Once that is laid though, then the prize can be built. Too many people take the quick and easy path.
The foundation is you. You construct your own meanings & your own values--or you can let forces external to yourself determine that for you. It's not what you've done, it's not what other people think about you, it's not collecting enough external affirmations (though, overtime, all those things might help you develop self-esteem and self-love in a tenuous sort of way) to feel kinda OK about yourself. You literally just have to decide that you're awesome and that you like who you are.

But maybe if you can just get that job, or maybe make a little more money, or lay that hottie, or drive a nicer car, then you'll be worthy. And I'm saying that those are just ego-buffers to prevent rejection.

I believe you're wrong here, if I'm understanding you correctly. Logic has made many women wet. Logic makes a man say: "No". That has made plenty of women wet. When their emotional tampon guy friends are saying: Yes, Yes, Yes. Logic makes the "rock" say No. Which, in turn, makes her wet. And logic has made plenty of men happy.... :confused:
No, logic would say that if you give her what she wants she'll give you what you want. If saying no to women was the logical response every guy would do it. And the most logical men would get the most pvssy. Women would be flocking to IT Offices and engineering firms instead of bars and festivals and rock shows and other dens of emotions and irrational decisions to seek out guys.

Logic makes the world go round, logic puts money in your pocket...
Logic tells you to go your job 5 days a week, because logically the job pays well and offers security and, well, everyone else is doing it. Pursuing your dream or doing what you really feel passionate about? Well, there's a good chance you won't make it; there's a good chance that you'll have to endure years of struggle and economic hardship; logically, it's a terrible decision. But, for me anyway, it's been the only path to happiness.

Who gets more pvssy? The broke musician who lives in a 3 bedroom with 5 other guys and will realistically never make it big; or the guy who works a 'respectable' job, lives in a 'respectable' house and whose done things the exact way society has told him he should? Which one of these two is acting logically; which one of these two should women logically choose as a mate?

I'm glad there's people 'making the world go round.' Rather make my life go forward.

There's a time and a place. I understand being predictable and boring isn't necessarily a good thing, but an emotional roller coaster isn't either. Not for the long term anyway. You may be a fun ride for a short while, but no one wants to live on a roller coaster.
No man wants to live on a roller coaster. Men like things predictable and even keel and secure and routine--it means you're not about to die or be disowned by the tribe. While women want you to be predictable and solid, it's only so that they can feel secure enough to possibly pursue better options and optimize their hypergamy.

In the third world, you'd be doing it right. In America in 2016, you damn well better make her feel something--other than security; security is overabundant. Right now she's getting her fix of emotions from television series and social media and by creating drama for herself; every guy is lining up to provide her predictability and resources and security (or the government will do it for her). She has to trust you to provide a good ride and that you aren't going to throw her off at every turn; the appeal of a good roller coaster is that logically you know you aren't in danger.

Even be the prize for yourself doesn't really work. If you think you are the prize, but society doesn't care or doesn't need you, you are in trouble.

You have to be something that people NEED, then you are the prize. It's all about what you can DO for people, whether you can turn them on being a famous actor or fix their car or give them food to eat. If you can't DO anything for anyone, doesn't matter how much of a prize you think you are for yourself or the girl, Soceity will chew you up and spit you out.
It's all about what you make people feel. That's why actors have peak SMV. Mechanics and garbage man, who are actually far more useful to society, might get used but they won't be appreciated or particularly valued.

Soceity will chew you up and spit you out.
Society is too big and busy to really give a damn. For the most part, it will accept you the way you present yourself. Unless you're super high visibility--think Bill Cosby--any indiscretions you make will be forgotten in a month (assuming you don't get caught up in the judicial system). You're holding onto the holdovers tribalism, where society is small enough that it may actively take it upon itself to 'chew you up and spit you out.' But outside of high school or a really small town or a workplace you're 100% dependent on, if you're a victim of society, you're probably just a victim of your perceptions.

But I've been on both sides of the coin and I honestly don't like investing my time into women.
Time? Takes all of a minute-and-a-half to get rejected on an approach. Sending a text to girl that might not be interested takes all of 20 seconds. You can game extensively with maybe an hour or two a week that would've been spent sitting on your couch watching TV.

I stay pretty busy, but there are still at least an hour or two a day that I have nothing to show for.

If you really don't want to **** around with low to mid interest women then there's nothing wrong with being strict on how you're treated. As long as you're doing it for you. That is congruent to being the prize for you. By doing things you don't want to do to get a woman, you're trading your time and happiness for a woman. Everyone has the right to decide where that slider goes because only they know what they want from life.

However, if your tolerance for women is driven by insecurity and fear then you have a problem you need to work on. There's nothing wrong with the concept of nexting low quality or low interest women. There is a looooooooot of them.
My issue with this is that so many people view interest level as something static and not something that fluctuates constantly. For some women, maybe you fit their physical ideal or look like their dad or their ex-boyfriend or something, and she'll be high interest from the open. But most girls need to experience you first, before they even know whether they're interested or not.

And it's also built on the premise that all females have equal amounts of game. AW's and Cluster B's do high interest better than anyone. They chase aloofness and devalidation harder than anyone. If your game is only bringing low quality women in your life, it might, just maybe, be a case that your approach works best on those types of women. A shy, inexperienced girl with healthy self-esteem? She might not even make eye contact with you and might not start investing in you at all unless you go first. What do you really have to lose by letting other people experience you?
 
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Huffman

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I reflected a bit more on the original post. What do suggest to break free from this frame?

I for example feel old and complacent. I don't take risks anymore like I used to when I came on this board. Although not very "successful", my life was much richer back then. I used to get pretty good motivation from being angry at my ****ty life. Now that anger is replaced by dull comfort.

It's like my ego made me lose this incredible desire to experience awesome things (such as hot women, adventures, whatever). You describe the problem perfectly but I don't know where to start.
 
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zekko

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You don't go to night clubs because you don't like them.
I agree with you, more so for most guys around here, who are younger fellows. Obviously, clubs aren't really for people my age. When I was younger, I would push myself to go into these kind of environments anyway, just to force myself to socialize more - to build up skill, and to put myself out there.

Of course now, I've been there done that, and would consider it a waste of time to go do something I didn't like doing. Although I still do that on occasion just so I can meet people and get out there and socialize - not going to clubs, but maybe a wedding reception I don't really want to go to, something like that.
 
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