'small' powerlifters

[fireguy]

Im not a huge fan of using olympias as an example. First of all, they genetic freaks that could grow muscle by mowing lawns. Second of all, they use high doses of growth hormone, insulin, testosterone and whatever steroids year around.

With steroids, any kind of training will put musclemass on you as long as you eat alot. I've seen training journals of users, and often their training is just messed up. But they still grow thanks to the sauce. This is why it's considered "cheating" by most people.

I feel.. in my oppinion that a better *real life* example would therefor be the masses of competing drugtested powerlifters. Most people dont want to be olympia gorillaz anyways. So lets say you want to get up to 200-225 lbs range. Do you know how many clean powerlifters that compete in the 198 to 225 lbs weightclass? They are everywhere! It's flooded! They got their size by busting their ball in the gym and getting strong. And they have to curb their calories to stay in that class. Hows that for irony - "I don't want to get too big". Another point is this - they loose alot of waterweight before the weighins.

Personally, I've never gone above 5 reps in training. Various 5x5 schemes. My favorite is dualfactor 5x5 training. Makes you grow like a damn weed. Volume is about 15-20 total sets three days a week. My diet has been nothing special. I basicly try to get in the protein and some carbs and healthy fats. Using only a belt, I got my maxes up to 440 lbs deadlift, 385 squat and a 285 lbs benchpress resulted in about 40-50 lbs of muscle mass. Probobly 40 since some of it is fatgain. Though I can see my abs now. Couldnt before. Here is my training http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm#CORE_DESCRIPTION:_ . Thick legs, thick wide back, CAPPED delts, full chest etc. The look of your muscles has to do with your genetic makeup. Don't you think lee priest has tryed everything under the sun to make his chest grow? Genetics! And besides, why bother with all the boring foo-foo bodybuilder stuff anyways

The thing about low reps, muscle gains and getting strong is that you wont see your muscles grow proportionally to strenght increases. Lets say you gain 20-40 lbs on your bench. Muscle growth usually wont come at the same time. First you get stronger. The muscle basicly has to be at that higher strenght level for a while before it decides to grow. How long varies ofcource. But you cant gain 50 lbs on a lift and NOT see a difference after a couple of months.

Once you go powerlifting, you never go back. So much is true. You get goal oriented, ambitious, hungry for bettering your self, added musclemass, confidence... Hows that for a benefit. You become a natural at being a man. And then some. Oh and get STRONG and BIG.

If you read through madcows page, you will learn alot. About overtraining, df2 principle and everything. Chiao

 

[wolf116]

No he has a great physique. Btw I'm still convinced he underwent a BBing routine when he was cutting not a PL one. But I think direct work is underated and SQ/BP/DL are overated in terms of getting big arms (and a good physique in the main). Neither of the 3 lifts work arms well. So I don't think you'll add much arm mass off these three lifts. Infact, if someone purely did these 3 lifts and bulked up I'd bet any money they'd have pretty poor arms. I'll always favour hitting the muscle from a few angles and inc. high reps and drop sets.

MM

Look this guy built those arms using westside barbell/Metal Militia powerlifting routines. Dave Tate built his on westside also. You can't build arms like that while cutting!
The guys that I train with in my powerlifting gym have the biggest arms I have seen in real life!
Every guy that goes to fitness first trains arms directly all day and none have arms like my powerlifting friends.

 

[fireguy]

@Mad Manic

About SQ/BP/DL and big arms. First - no one is suggesting that you train only those three lifts. BUT! Those lifts are greate for gaining mass overall. And if you want big arms, you have to have alot of mass overall.

 

[Mad Manic]

Look this guy built those arms using westside barbell/Metal Militia powerlifting routines. Dave Tate built his on westside also. You can't build arms like that while cutting!
The guys that I train with in my powerlifting gym have the biggest arms I have seen in real life!
Every guy that goes to fitness first trains arms directly all day and none have arms like my powerlifting friends.

Most tend to extremes. PL routines beat few-compounds-hardly routines, also PLers aren't afraid of eating. That guy's physique ain't all that for the numbers he puts up. There are pro BBers weaker than him who have a lot more mass and better body. Inefficient IMO.

Many focus on good numbers, a year later moan about crap arms, lats, upper chest and delts. They start BBing stuff and see big improvements. I've never known anyone who had a good physique who didnt do a lot of direct work unless they put up monstrous weights.

'Squat for big arms' article is mostly BS. Squats hardly increase arm growth. Ever heard of Tom Platz? Amazing legs from hardcore squats, arms/upper body comparatively poor. Anabolic effect of squats/deads is hugely overated. Many BBers don't deadlift to avoid big asses/blocky waists. There are guys with big arms/upper body who hardly train legs. From real world evidence the body can grow out of proportion to a degree.

BBing is about wearing down the fibres as best as possible. Yes strength gains are a part of that but if you don't do a range of reps, higher volume, drop sets, angles etc. then IMO you're short-changing yourself.

MM

 

[wolf116]

You keep saying powerliftes aren't big enough for the weights they pull compared to bodybuilders. But how is this relevant when powerlifters gain their strength much quicker then BB's. Hitting the muscle from 4 different angles is not going to stimulate the muscle as much as using double the weight.

I just keep on seeing guys making no progress in a normal gym, then to go over to powerlifting and grow like never before.

 

[Mad Manic]

You keep saying powerliftes aren't big enough for the weights they pull compared to bodybuilders. But how is this relevant when powerlifters gain their strength much quicker then BB's.

Because for most it's about getting a good physique and staying injury free.

Hitting the muscle from 4 different angles is not going to stimulate the muscle as much as using double the weight.

That makes no sense. If someone does Flat, Incline and Dips for Chest then how is that half the weight than if they did only Bench Press but low reps and more sets? Mmmm. And from experience doing just 1 exercise alone doesn't stimulate the fibres adequately. Maybe Squats for Quads does since it's so demanding but for upper body stuff I think more 'care' is needed.

I just keep on seeing guys making no progress in a normal gym, then to go over to powerlifting and grow like never before.

Yes because they shifted from one extreme to the other, and the PL one is at least a lot better.

 

[spesmilitis]

dam. . . .
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc62/takeahnase_sherdog/stoitsov.jpg

 

[fireguy]

Do whatever bodyuilding piss you want. You're never gonna be the next kevin levrone anyways. Hows this: Powerlift and get your size up in two years time, spend som time working on your weak aereas. For some it's chest, for others its triceps.

 

[Mad Manic]

Do whatever bodyuilding piss you want. You're never gonna be the next kevin levrone anyways. Hows this: Powerlift and get your size up in two years time, spend som time working on your weak aereas. For some it's chest, for others its triceps.

But bodybuilding is better at getting size up lol.

MM

 

[spesmilitis]

But bodybuilding is better at getting size up lol.

MM

For size? Nah.

 

[blackbelt2k]

If its one thing i've learned, its that bodybuilding is pretty much a waste of time. Who cares how big your arms are if you can barely lift your body weight. The strongest guys i know, aren't big at all. They have mass, but their muscles aren't big. You new guys have to learn that big muscles does not equal strenght. Get your strenght up, then work on chiseling out whatever muscles you want.

 

[Mad Manic]

If its one thing i've learned, its that bodybuilding is pretty much a waste of time. Who cares how big your arms are if you can barely lift your body weight. The strongest guys i know, aren't big at all. They have mass, but their muscles aren't big. You new guys have to learn that big muscles does not equal strenght. Get your strenght up, then work on chiseling out whatever muscles you want.

I think most people will care more about how big you are rather than how much you lift, although you'll need decent poundages to get big anyway. Wherever you go people will see you and comment on your physique, the only people who MAY care about strength are yourself and any guys in the gym who are watching. And it makes no sense to advise strength training if people only care about big muscles; as you said, there are strong guys who have muscles that aren't that big. Not many people's cup of tea.

MM

 

[Mad Manic]

For size? Nah.

Lovely post, so if powerlifting is better for strength and powerlifting is better for size, then why on earth does bodybuilding exist and why on earth do bodybuilders have more lean mass at low bf levels than anyone else? Powerlifters if/when cut up are smaller than most BBers.

MM

 

[Quagmire911]

Order of lean muscle mass:

1.Sumo's-http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/Japan/03/singer/koni2.jpg
2.Powerlifter's-http://www.propeptide.com/gif/andy-bolton-01.jpg
3.BB'ers-http://www.jaycutler.com/photos/images/MT12.jpg

This is not taking into consideration fibre makeup. I sure as hell don't want blown up sacroplasmic beach muscles.

Quagmire

 

[spesmilitis]

Lovely post, so if powerlifting is better for strength and powerlifting is better for size, then why on earth does bodybuilding exist

They isolate the smaller muscles and then use extreme fat cutting to make them stick out.

why on earth do bodybuilders have more lean mass at low bf levels than anyone else? Powerlifters if/when cut up are smaller than most BBers.

MM

If you take the top body builders in the world and compare them to the top power/olympic lifters, yes. But, the average power/Olympic lifter is defiantly bigger than the average bodybuilder.

 

[mrRuckus]

ok first I have to go over some principles I believe in first regarding training and Ill go to work and hit more on the training later on.
a) I believe he who makes the greatest strength gains (in a controlled fashion)as a bodybuilder, makes the greatest muscle gains--note: i said strength gains--everyone knows someone naturally strong who can bench 400 yet isnt that big. Going from a beginning 375 bench to 400 isnt that great of a strength gain and wont result in much of a muscle gain. But if i show you someone who went from 150 to 400 on a benchpress, that guy will have about 2.5 inches more of muscle thickness on his pecs. That is an incredible strength gain and will equal out into an incredible muscle gain

b) I havent seen a guy who can squat 500 for 20 reps, bench press 500 for 15 and deadlift 500 for 15 who was small yet ---but I have seen alot and i mean alot of people in the gym and on these forums that are a buck 65 or two and change--shouting that you dont have to lift heavy to get big. (in an extremely rare case you will see a naturally strong powerlifter who has to curb calories to stay in a weight class and that is the reason he doesnt get bigger)

c)training is all about adaption--in simple terms you lift a weight and your muscle has one of 2 choices--either tear completely under the load (which is incredibly rare and what we dont want)or the muscle lifts the weight and protects itself by remodeling and getting bigger to protect itself against the load (next time). If the weight gets heavier--the muscle has to again remodel and get bigger again to handle it. You can superset, superslow, giant set, pre exhaust all day long but the infinite adaption is load---meaning heavier and heavier weights is the only infinite thing you can do in your training. Intensity is finite. Volume is finite (or infinite if you want to do 9000 sets per bodypart)...everything else is finite. The Load is infinite and heavier and heavier weights used(I DONT GIVE A **** WHAT SOME BUCK 58 POUND GURU SAYS)will make the biggest bodybuilder. (add high protein, glutamine and drugs to the mix and you have one large person)

d) The largest pro bodybuilders in the last 10 years (outside of Paul Dillett who is a genetic alien and I think could grow off of mowing lawns) are also the very strongest-(kovacs, prince, coleman, yates, francois, nasser (although he trains lighter now) For anyone who argues that they have seen so and so bodybuilder and he trains light---well I will bet you he isnt gaining rapid size anymore and that his greatest size increases were when he was going for his pro card and he was training **** heavy. He will convince himself and others that he is "making the best gains of his career" though cuz noone likes to think what they are presently doing isnt working and they are running in place do they.... Sadly heavy drug use can make up for alot of training fallacies.

e) Please think of the times when you make the best size gains---the first time is in the first 2 years of lifting WHEN YOU MAKE YOUR BEST STRENGTH GAINS TOO! then things start to slow down. Whats the next time? You start using steroids and boom what happens? YOUR TRAINING WEIGHTS GO FLYING UP. And you get dramatically bigger-(im taking into effect protein assimilation, recovery etc also). The greatest strength gains you make will result in also the most rapid size gains. (if your taking in the protein requirements of a 12 year old girl scout then you can discount yourself from the above group)
I beleive in Powerbuilding not bodybuilding--using techniques that build the most strength gains in the fastest time possible while using the most effective exercises for that person. I am positive I could take 2 twins--have one do his own thing training wise, but do the same drugs and nutrition as the twin I train......come back a year later and the twin I trained would have 25lbs more muscle

f)Ive seen powerlifters (who catch alot of guff from bodybuilders for being "fat") diet down and come in and destroy bodybuilders in bodybuilding shows time and time again. Over and over. Powerlifters and Powerbodybuilders are by far the thickest guys onstage when and if they decide to enter bodybuilding shows.
g) heavy is relative--it doesnt mean 3 reps --- it means as heavy as you can go on that exercise no matter if it is 5 reps or 50 reps. I personally like to do hack squats for 20 reps but I use about 6 plates on each side rock bottom--thats as heavy as I can go on that exercise for 20 reps. I could do sets of 6 and probaly use maybe 8 or 9 plates a side but my legs (and most people I train) grow best from heavy and 15-50 reps.
so now you guys know i believe in the heaviest training possible (safely)--ok i got to go to work—

...

 

[spesmilitis]

Except for at the open weight classes, I also suspect that pl/oly-ers have lower average bodyfat levels. Sure, BB-ers have extremly low bf levels at show time, but bb-ers also get hella fat when they're 'bulking'.

 

[Mr.Positive]

I think most people will care more about how big you are rather than how much you lift, although you'll need decent poundages to get big anyway. Wherever you go people will see you and comment on your physique, the only people who MAY care about strength are yourself and any guys in the gym who are watching.MM

Mad Manic, do you work out to get stronger, or to impress the people around you?

From my experience, powerlifting is the way to go to gain strength..good usable "throw-some-weight-around" strength.

It sounds like you want club muscle, to look good first.

Regardless, everyone is training for different reasons, IMO, as long as you are training for something, you are OK in my book.

 

[Mad Manic]

Order of lean muscle mass:

1.Sumo's-http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/Japan/03/singer/koni2.jpg
2.Powerlifter's-http://www.propeptide.com/gif/andy-bolton-01.jpg
3.BB'ers-http://www.jaycutler.com/photos/images/MT12.jpg

This is not taking into consideration fibre makeup. I sure as hell don't want blown up sacroplasmic beach muscles.

Quagmire

That's a poor comparison. Firstly you have no idea what the sumo or Bolton would look like when stripped to 4-5% bf. Ronnie Coleman in his prime at 4-5% bf had the most lean muscle mass. There's no way a sumo when ripped would be bigger than coleman. If he tried to get ripped he'd lose lots of muscle along the way as he has so much fat to shift. Same with Bolton.

MM

 

[Mad Manic]

Mad Manic, do you work out to get stronger, or to impress the people around you?

From my experience, powerlifting is the way to go to gain strength..good usable "throw-some-weight-around" strength.

It sounds like you want club muscle, to look good first.

Regardless, everyone is training for different reasons, IMO, as long as you are training for something, you are OK in my book.

Mainly to look good but I'm interested in strength as well, I do a lot of low reps and make upping the weight a priority. It's condusive for mass building in the long-run anyway and it's good to shift heavy weight. As I said, my sessions always include a mix of low, med and high reps.

MM