She tells me I'm self-righteous...

[styleman]

she wished me on my birthday and said she wanted to 'talk to me'.

How to progress?

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Reproductive coping contrivances of the AFC

The Savior Schema – an expectation of reciprocation of intimacy (usually sexual) for problems solved.

This is a learned/developed behavior that results from men's natural propensity to deductively search for the most rational solution to a problem. It's really a linear logic; I need sex + women have sex + I must discover what is required for me to get sex from women + I will perform/embody/identify with said requirements = woman will reciprocate with her intimacy. Needless to say this is simplistic at best, but men have a tendency to believe that women will respond as rationally as they themselves would in qualifying for her stated desires. This forum is full of men who can tell you this simply isn't the case for any number of reasons, but sadly they still think that women ought to live up to their implied "agreement."

The fundamental flaw of the Savior Schema (also, Captain Save a Ho) is that it is essentially negotiated intimacy, and negotiated intimacy is never genuine. You can fix a woman's flat tire, help her out of a financial jam, fix her a nice lasagne, give her the perfect shoulder to cry on and listen to her drone on for hours on the phone, and she'll still go ƒuck her outlaw biker BF because her intimacy with him is genuine, unnegotiated, unobligated desire.

What AFCs fail to understand is that all the financial, emotional, dependable support you could possibly offer a woman is no substitute for raw, unmitigated, chemical desire. Some of the most irresponsible, unreliable, poverty level washouts often get more sex than any AFC suffering from a Savior Schema, because there is no obligation.

Of course the flip side to this argument is the Protector Dynamic which is the natural propensity for a man to want to provide protection for his mate. Over the course of our evolutionary history certain psycho-biological behaviors proved to be beneficial to the survival of our species. Specific hormonal releases prompt different emotions and behavioral reactions as a response to our environments. Women, for instance, produce higher volumes of oxytocin and estrogen thus prompting a natural instinctual feeling of wellbeing and nurturing her children (which also, interestingly enough, is released after female orgasm). The same is true for men. Being generally physically stronger and posessing 17 times the testosterone, men have evolved chemical ****tails of their own and thus feel a natural protection instinct when prompted.

The conflict comes when the AFC confuses this Protector Dynamic with a Savior Schema. The natural feelings derived from his biochemistry only serve to reinforce his Savior mentality and solidify it as part of his personality. Even when a woman's repeated behavior directly contradicts this notion of reciprocating intimacy for help (or his idea of 'protection') the Savior Schema only rationalizes it as being inconsistent with a single, individual woman.


Now, lets move on to Mixed Messages shall we?

The medium IS the message.

I hate the term 'Mixed Messages'. More often than not there's nothing 'Mixed' being communicated and rather it's a failure to read what a woman is communicating. The average guy tends to 'get' exactly what a woman has implied with her words, but it takes practice to read her behavior and then more practice in self-control to apply it to his own. When a girl goes from hot to cold and back again, THIS IS the message - she's got buyers regret, you're not her first priority, she's deliberating between you and what she perceives is a better prospect, you were better looking when she was drunk, etc. - the message isn't the 'what ifs', the message IS her own hesitation and how her behavior manifests it. 10 dates before sex? This IS the message. Canceling dates? This IS the message.

,..she has also been messaging me on her own accord, things like,
'I guess you don't even remember me.'
'I think you like it when I suffer, you just get on with your life while I'm like this'
'Do not meet any girls'

Anything I reply to the above is met with
'Don't reply'
'Leave me alone'
etc.

I've said
'If its finished, just bloody say it, don't mess me around.'
Her response
'That's the last thing I want! Why can't you understand that I just cannot deal with people right now. I love you, just ****ing leave me alone'

This IS the message.

Women with high IL wont confuse you. When a woman wants to ƒuck she'll find a way to ƒuck. If she's fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It's when you patiently wile away your time wondering what the magic formula is that'll bring her around that you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attention.

What most guys think are 'mixed messages' or confusing behavior coming from a woman is simply due to their inability (for whatever reason) to make an accurate interpretation of why she's behaving in such a manner. Usually this boils down to a guy getting so wrapped up in a girl (i.e. ONEitis, which you have in spades my friend) that he'd rather make concessions for this behavior than see it for what it really is. In other words, it's far easier to call it 'mixed messages' or fall back on the old chestnut of how fickle and random women are, when in fact it's simply a rationale to keep themselves on the hook, so to speak, because they lack any real, viable, options with other women in their lives. THIS is the position you find yourself in now. A woman that has a high IL in a guy has no need (and less motivation) to engage in behaviors that would compromise her status with him. Women of all ILs will sh!t test, and men will pass or fail accordingly, but a test is more easily recognizable.

Cut yourself off now.

 

[Rounder]

Cut yourself off now.

QFT.

 

[styleman]

Reproductive coping contrivances of the AFC

The Savior Schema – an expectation of reciprocation of intimacy (usually sexual) for problems solved.

This is a learned/developed behavior that results from men's natural propensity to deductively search for the most rational solution to a problem. It's really a linear logic; I need sex + women have sex + I must discover what is required for me to get sex from women + I will perform/embody/identify with said requirements = woman will reciprocate with her intimacy. Needless to say this is simplistic at best, but men have a tendency to believe that women will respond as rationally as they themselves would in qualifying for her stated desires. This forum is full of men who can tell you this simply isn't the case for any number of reasons, but sadly they still think that women ought to live up to their implied "agreement."

The fundamental flaw of the Savior Schema (also, Captain Save a Ho) is that it is essentially negotiated intimacy, and negotiated intimacy is never genuine. You can fix a woman's flat tire, help her out of a financial jam, fix her a nice lasagne, give her the perfect shoulder to cry on and listen to her drone on for hours on the phone, and she'll still go ƒuck her outlaw biker BF because her intimacy with him is genuine, unnegotiated, unobligated desire.

What AFCs fail to understand is that all the financial, emotional, dependable support you could possibly offer a woman is no substitute for raw, unmitigated, chemical desire. Some of the most irresponsible, unreliable, poverty level washouts often get more sex than any AFC suffering from a Savior Schema, because there is no obligation.

Of course the flip side to this argument is the Protector Dynamic which is the natural propensity for a man to want to provide protection for his mate. Over the course of our evolutionary history certain psycho-biological behaviors proved to be beneficial to the survival of our species. Specific hormonal releases prompt different emotions and behavioral reactions as a response to our environments. Women, for instance, produce higher volumes of oxytocin and estrogen thus prompting a natural instinctual feeling of wellbeing and nurturing her children (which also, interestingly enough, is released after female orgasm). The same is true for men. Being generally physically stronger and posessing 17 times the testosterone, men have evolved chemical ****tails of their own and thus feel a natural protection instinct when prompted.

The conflict comes when the AFC confuses this Protector Dynamic with a Savior Schema. The natural feelings derived from his biochemistry only serve to reinforce his Savior mentality and solidify it as part of his personality. Even when a woman's repeated behavior directly contradicts this notion of reciprocating intimacy for help (or his idea of 'protection') the Savior Schema only rationalizes it as being inconsistent with a single, individual woman.


Now, lets move on to Mixed Messages shall we?

The medium IS the message.

I hate the term 'Mixed Messages'. More often than not there's nothing 'Mixed' being communicated and rather it's a failure to read what a woman is communicating. The average guy tends to 'get' exactly what a woman has implied with her words, but it takes practice to read her behavior and then more practice in self-control to apply it to his own. When a girl goes from hot to cold and back again, THIS IS the message - she's got buyers regret, you're not her first priority, she's deliberating between you and what she perceives is a better prospect, you were better looking when she was drunk, etc. - the message isn't the 'what ifs', the message IS her own hesitation and how her behavior manifests it. 10 dates before sex? This IS the message. Canceling dates? This IS the message.



This IS the message.

Women with high IL wont confuse you. When a woman wants to ƒuck she'll find a way to ƒuck. If she's fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It's when you patiently wile away your time wondering what the magic formula is that'll bring her around that you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attention.

What most guys think are 'mixed messages' or confusing behavior coming from a woman is simply due to their inability (for whatever reason) to make an accurate interpretation of why she's behaving in such a manner. Usually this boils down to a guy getting so wrapped up in a girl (i.e. ONEitis, which you have in spades my friend) that he'd rather make concessions for this behavior than see it for what it really is. In other words, it's far easier to call it 'mixed messages' or fall back on the old chestnut of how fickle and random women are, when in fact it's simply a rationale to keep themselves on the hook, so to speak, because they lack any real, viable, options with other women in their lives. THIS is the position you find yourself in now. A woman that has a high IL in a guy has no need (and less motivation) to engage in behaviors that would compromise her status with him. Women of all ILs will sh!t test, and men will pass or fail accordingly, but a test is more easily recognizable.

Cut yourself off now.

Fine what you've said makes a lot of sense, and I must thank you for that.
However, you don't offer any explanation how to solve such a situation, or how the theories apply to this situation.
For example, sure she is playing me hot and cold, but why she's doing it, and how I stop her doing it is totally left open. If you understand the situation I would appreciate an explanation a lot.
She definitely had a high IL in the past, and even on and off now, I see a lot of what she says to me right now as needy even. I don't need an education on how to get girls, keeping them is another story for me...
I doubt that she's seeing other guys, she's practically in hiding, and its now come to a stage that she will reply to me in a decent manner when I talk to her.
As it goes the situation between us is ok, but I don't forget easily, she abused me when she needed and wanted my help, and she wants me to just act like the way she behaved with me was justified just because she was having a hard time.
I suppose that this is not so much of a male-female relationship issue, but more a person-person issue. I suppose there are just some people in this world who don't know how to behave with people.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

For example, sure she is playing me hot and cold, but why she's doing it, and how I stop her doing it is totally left open. If you understand the situation I would appreciate an explanation a lot.

You are the one with the first-hand experience with her; this is a question you need to ask yourself. It's entirely possible she's playing a Coquette with you, or she could be BPD, only you can evaluate that - although I'm inclined to suspect the latter considering the PM you sent me.

I don't need an education on how to get girls, keeping them is another story for me...

Again, the question you need to ask yourself is WHY you even have a desire to "keep" a woman, much less and specifically THIS one? The fact that I'm pointing this out to you means you haven't considered it - it's time you do so. Why would you want to entertain an LTR with a woman that causes so much psychological discord for you? My guess is you'd like her to be force-fit into an idealization, and that is definitely ONEitis.

,..she abused me when she needed and wanted my help, and she wants me to just act like the way she behaved with me was justified just because she was having a hard time.

And you want practical advice on how to "fix" her? Why is it so difficult a thought for you to consider that she's whacked and you need to eject from this? What is it about you that makes you think that all the effort you'd expend in being Cap'n Save A Ho would ever be appreciated with a woman like this?

I'm not going to give you some practical advice on how to make things all better for you. That'd be like handing a heroin addict a fresh needle and a bag of smack while telling him it'll fix his problem. Ask yourself why you're an AFC. If were all about getting girls this one would be inconsequential. Face it, you're optionless. You know it and I know it, if you had other irons in the fire you'd never have started this thread. I'm not getting tough with you to flame you, I'm doing it to wake you up. Get off the sinking ship.

 

[styleman]

What's BPD?

I don't think you're flaming me, and I appreciate your help.
Just like to point out a few inaccuracies though, I have plenty of options and I don't see myself as an AFC.
In the same way you ask me why I think she's worth it, I ask you why you think she's not.
Of all the labels that you've applied to me, the one which I'm willing to take is oneitis, sure I do have oneitis for this girl, but when that girl also likes you, and its working, I don't see what's wrong with that.
I've always strived for ideals, we're back on talking terms, and my heart wants me to forgive, but whatever there is in me that does not makes me an AFC and successful with girls is screaming out to me, why should you...

 

[Rounder]

Think about the things you've said about her in this thread - think about the crazy stuff she's done.

People have given you advice, most of that is to leave. It's your choice, stay with her if you want.

My opinion - you aren't leaving her, you're going to try and stay with her and "rescue" her. You sound like you want to justify staying with her, it sounds like you want people to say "it's ok to stay with her" so then you feel better about it.

You posted today about her texting you and wanting to "talk" and you needed to know how to respond. You clearly want to talk to her. You were told in several posts to cut her off but you still want to get involved.

So talk to her and let her drag you down in her misery. Or cut her off forever and wash your hands of it.

Those are your choices, make a decision - make it YOUR decision.

 

[Duffdog]

She's still doing the same thing, messaging me then telling me not to reply... Anyone know what I should do??

Yes, this is what you should do. Next time she txts you, txt her back: "I'm sorry, who is this?" when she identifies herself, dont' reply. ever! Then, change your number and find another girl.

Thats what you should do.

 

[MetalFortress]

Let her keep screwing it up. Mind your business and ignore her. Neither of you will be done any good by continuing it.