Relationship Getting Worse with No Apparent Reason Why

[Jerzee Dweller]

A few months ago, I met this woman who is around my age at her place of employment. Upon talking, we found we had much in common. The only problem, for me that is, is that she told me she had a bf. Okay. I can deal with that. She is attractive (about an HB-8) and if she didn't have one, I would have been quite surprised. It has been my experience that more women have bfs than men have gfs. She has also said that this is not her first bf.

I decided at that time that I would not show any indignation that she had a bf. That I would not react negatively to any mention she made of him, or that her friends made of him, and just continue interacting with her as I had been. I also came to the conclusion that just because we had met, had a lot in common, and got along quite friendly, that things might not work out as far as the relationship extending to anything further than the occasional meetings we had been having. Regardless of what would happen, I wanted to continue our amicable relationship. I do not see anything wrong with men and women having a good relationship without having to be a bf/gf or even having sex. Without question, achieving that (sex) is the goal. But in this situation, I decided I would accept whatever outcome so long as we could maintain the good relationship I thought we could have.

For the first few months, everything seemed fine. I gave her a small inexpensive (under $5.00) gift for her birthday, which she seemed to appreciate. Other guys who go to her place of employment did not give her gifts. The month after that seemed okay.

Then she seemed to change. Where we used to have lengthy - sometimes quite personal - conversations, she started to distance herself from me. The time she spent with me got less and less, and she started spending that time talking to her older female co-workers whom she has plenty of time to talk to during her work breaks. She also seems to be flirting quite a bit with several of the men who come to her place of employment (p.o.e.) right in front of me, even though they have not given her anything and she still maintains that she has a bf. It is as if she can find extra time for all of these other men - some her age, and some much older - but not for me. It is also as if she now only wants to talk to me about the topics relating to her place of employment. Very recently, I have made my stays at her p.o.e. much shorter than they used to be, as I feel that I am just being ignored for the most part.

Two things are troubling me about this whole thing. The first thing is that I cannot understand what happened. I have read many times on this board that it is a waste of time to try to analyze a woman, and I certainly agree that whenever a guy tries to do that, the only thing he will accomplish is to waste time. But, I am not trying to analyze one action she took or one statement she made, I am trying to figure out what changed the relationship. Like I said, I was willing to accept whatever outcome, but considering how much we have had in common and how good we got along together for the first few months, I did not anticipate any deterioration in the relationship - especially since I did not try to escalate the relationship to anything more than what it was. The second thing is that this has happened to me before. The difference is that when it happened before, the relationships then were not as good as this one seemed to be.

What I am asking for here is for your thoughts about this, and how the relationship could (if it is possible to, and if you feel it should) be improved. Are there any specific questions I should ask or subjects that I should try to bring up in future conversations that might provide some insight on what is going on?

I realize that I will have to spin more plates, regardless, since she has already said that she has a bf. But I do not think I am wrong for wanting the relationship to be a good one, even if at this point it cannot be anything more than what it once was. If there are any questions you have that may help you to understand this a little better, please ask me as I may have left out something that could be of help. I certainly appreciate you reading this, and for any assistance you can provide with this situation.

 

[musclyjerk]

You say you're happy just having an 'ammicable' friendly relationship with her - yet you admit the goal is to have sex with her.

Perhaps she gave up waiting for you to make your move toward that goal and has lost interest.

"Sigh, if he likes me why doesn't he make a move? Screw it, I'm going to flirt with other guys I've lost all interest in him now".

Don't **** around with women acting 'friendly' - make your intentions clear and be sure of yourself and they will reward you for it if you're not heinously ugly. If you don't make your intentions clear you look like a wuss and they quickly lose all interest and respect.

The Muscly Jerk

 

[Aaron B]

Wait - have you had sex with this woman or not?

 

[kyphan]

Two questions.

1) Why did you never make a move, thus putting yourself in the friendzone?

2) Why do you care so darn much about one girl you've done nothing with?

 

[Jerzee Dweller]

Hey Guys, thanks for the replies so far!
The reason I didn't make a move is because early in the "relationship" is when she told me she had a bf. The strange part is that during the past two months, she has tried to avoid making any reference to him. For instance, I asked her what she did over the Holidays and she told me she went to a club and had a good time, but she neglected to say whether she went alone. I would feel stupid to try and believe that she went alone. So more likely than not, she does have a bf. I do not know anything about him or their relationship because I wanted to give the impression that I was confident enough that it did not bother me, so I did not ask any questions. I only know that she has been in at least one long-term bf-gf relationship before. To answer the other question, no, i have not had sex with her. And kyphan, I guess I care about her because during the time we spent together, I felt really good. I have had relationships before, and while they were fun, this relationship made me feel really good. I know that may sound stupid, but it is the only answer that I have, at least for now, to that question.

You made some very good points, PleasureKing. I guess there are three "sticking points" about this that are bothering me, aside from those I mentioned in the post before. First, this is not the kind of a woman who once she meets her "Mr. Right", "Prince Charming", etc., that she precludes any chance of having a relationship with someone else if someone better came along. This is why I do not feel that a better relationship, or even a more serious relationship, is impossible, even if not right away. Second, if her bf found out and told her not to talk to me, it wouldn't make sense that he would let her flirt with these other guys. Third, why the secrecy? If she has a bf and they have a good relationship, why doesn't she mention him? I know, I know, trying to analyze a woman.... :crazy: but I guess you know what I mean here.

As to her body language, early in our "relationship", she would be tense at first, but then ease up and really get into the conversation. Recently, like before, she is tense at first, but now she seems to not want to allow herself the opportunity to ease up. Before this could happen, she appears to distract herself and either talks to another co-worker or does other stuff.

I realize I do have to meet other women. I know I cannot see her as the only woman around, and I don't. It is just that we have so much in common, and I do not really want a "relationship" that once was really nice to just end. I do not understand why it would have to.

 

[jophil28]

Giving her a gift said that you were "heading her way" - She then knew that you were interested and, if I am guessing right, then to her, the game was over. She is an attention ***** - move on my man.
Tough break, but there are plenty like her.

 

[Tazman]

My opinion:

1. You want to have sex with her, as you stated.

2. This "amicable" friendship you've talked about is not your true intention.

3. You are attempting to establish rapport with her to sway her in your
direction, despite what you said about not asking her out because of the
boyfriend.

4. You're hoping you'll be the next branch she swings to.

None of this is really wrong, I mean this is how it usually happens. An attractive woman is almost never single, she waits until she has another prospect (usually if things don't get too crazy, although some like that drama) and then "swings" to the next guy.

I think giving her the gift was a bad idea. It probably made you look a bit too nice (maybe even desperate because she knows why you talk to her), and/or was percived as a passive/aggressive move to hook her and she reacted by avoiding you so she wouldn't feel obligated to reciprocate in some way. I would totally leave this one alone. She probably liked the attention at first but now she's over it.

 

[kyphan]

It is just that we have so much in common, and I do not really want a "relationship" that once was really nice to just end. I do not understand why it would have to.

Women put men in one of two categories, and from what you've told us you were in the "I'd sleep with him" category (a good start). But you never made your move to determine her IL, and attractive women want men who will make a move. Either she is looking for attention or she is looking for a new man, and if it's the latter you will not be that new man.

Meeting a great girl and watching her disappear sucks, except for the fact that you're now even more open to an ever better opportunity. Time to go find that better opportunity.

 

[Sinistar]

Hey Jerzee Dweller,

Whether it was intentional or not, your post is a excellent example of a dude being AFC and having ONE-itis. In summary, you're fixated on one HB and you're trying to friendship your way to s3x. Yeah, your dialoge might seem counter to this however any guy in this situation who asks for help always reveals his cards (even though you do not conciously realize it).

On the surface, a lengthy, complex set of social conditioning combined with a lack of proper de-programming has you believing that a friendship will matter, that she will eventually see and pick you as the winner because you've been nice.

Now I will challenge you to look way down deep inside because in that place you're not comfortable going to (yet) you'll *feel* that the approach was and never will be right.

Some bolding below...

A few months ago, I met this woman who is around my age at her place of employment. Upon talking, we found we had much in common. The only problem, for me that is, is that she told me she had a bf. Okay. I can deal with that. She is attractive (about an HB-8) and if she didn't have one, I would have been quite surprised. It has been my experience that more women have bfs than men have gfs. She has also said that this is not her first bf.

I decided at that time that I would not show any indignation that she had a bf. That I would not react negatively to any mention she made of him, or that her friends made of him, and just continue interacting with her as I had been. I also came to the conclusion that just because we had met, had a lot in common, and got along quite friendly, that things might not work out as far as the relationship???? extending to anything further than the occasional meetings we had been having. Regardless of what would happen, I wanted to continue our amicable relationship????. I do not see anything wrong with men and women having a good relationship without having to be a bf/gf or even having sex. Without question, achieving that (sex) is the goal. But in this situation, I decided I would accept whatever outcome so long as we could maintain the good relationship I thought we could have????.

For the first few months, everything seemed fine. I gave her a small inexpensive (under $5.00) gift for her birthday, which she seemed to appreciate. Other guys who go to her place of employment did not give her gifts. The month after that seemed okay.

Then she seemed to change. Where we used to have lengthy - sometimes quite personal - conversations, she started to distance herself from me. The time she spent with me got less and less, and she started spending that time talking to her older female co-workers whom she has plenty of time to talk to during her work breaks. She also seems to be flirting quite a bit with several of the men who come to her place of employment (p.o.e.) right in front of me, even though they have not given her anything and she still maintains that she has a bf. It is as if she can find extra time for all of these other men - some her age, and some much older - but not for me. It is also as if she now only wants to talk to me about the topics relating to her place of employment. Very recently, I have made my stays at her p.o.e. much shorter than they used to be, as I feel that I am just being ignored for the most part.

Two things are troubling me about this whole thing. The first thing is that I cannot understand what happened. I have read many times on this board that it is a waste of time to try to analyze a woman, and I certainly agree that whenever a guy tries to do that, the only thing he will accomplish is to waste time. But, I am not trying to analyze one action she took or one statement she made, I am trying to figure out what changed the relationship????. Like I said, I was willing to accept whatever outcome, but considering how much we have had in common and how good we got along together for the first few months, I did not anticipate any deterioration in the relationship???? - especially since I did not try to escalate the relationship???? to anything more than what it was. The second thing is that this has happened to me before. The difference is that when it happened before, the relationships then were not as good as this one seemed to be.

What I am asking for here is for your thoughts about this, and how the relationship???? could (if it is possible to, and if you feel it should) be improved. Are there any specific questions I should ask or subjects that I should try to bring up in future conversations that might provide some insight on what is going on?

I realize that I will have to spin more plates, regardless, since she has already said that she has a bf. But I do not think I am wrong for wanting the relationship???? to be a good one, even if at this point it cannot be anything more than what it once was. If there are any questions you have that may help you to understand this a little better, please ask me as I may have left out something that could be of help. I certainly appreciate you reading this, and for any assistance you can provide with this situation.

Dude, you are using the word relationship - WHAT RELATIONSHIP???

Yeah, I know you're probably gonna say you meant friendship or acquaintence or some other term. Guess what, no one's gonna buy it.

Relationship means you've scored her digits (ASAP) and followed up with a date. By your first or second date you would have kissed (or more) and within a date or two of that you would have done the deed. Then over the period of SEVERAL months you would have continued spending time together with intimacy at nearly every meeting, staying over at each other's places, meeting her friends, etc. As things move on and assuming a high level of compatibility and desire/interest, she will want you to meet her family, say she loves you and push for exclusivity. During that same time you will most likely find that you are distancing yourself the from the other trivial or semi-interesting plates. And somewhere in there you have a RELATIONSHIP.

Above I bolded the "The second thing is that this has happened to me before" statement from your original quote. If this has happened before then I would venture to guess that your perception of what a relationship is is not congruent with your true desire for a relationship? Guess what, you're a guy. I bolded it above, you really just want to fvck this HB. And so do a lot of other guys out there. And the one who's gonna wind up in a relationship (with her) is the one who does the exact opposite of what you're doing!

Alright, so you blew this opportunity. And ouch, it actually stings a little doesn't it? So now you can either dwell or learn. If you continue to dwell and seek time near her the odds are you'll start to creep her out. Why not learn from it instead?

Please know, I'm not trying to be harsh. Just trying to help you see a very likely difference between her reality and yours.

So what do you do next? MOVE FORWARD with your life!!! De-program yourself of this 'friendship your way to s3x' myth. Learn to identify when you've allowed yourself to fixate (ie ONE-itis). Risk the rejection, early and often. Try narrowing your focus to initial meets and #close's.

 

[Jerzee Dweller]

Hey again,
I do appreciate all of these thoughts. Many of them have really made me think about this from different perspectives that I did not before.

I do have to clarify one thing, though. One statement I made has seemed to draw the most attention, and I want to better explain it as I may have incorrectly said it the first time.

I do not see anything wrong with men and women having a good relationship without having to be a bf/gf or even having sex. Without question, achieving that (sex) is the goal. But in this situation, I decided I would accept whatever outcome so long as we could maintain the good relationship I thought we could have.

When I said this, I meant that achieving sex in ANY relationship is the goal. However, that was not the PRIMARY goal for me in THIS situation. I know how strange that may sound to some of you, and I really can't explain it myself. With past relationships I have had, sex quickly became the primary goal, or at least it got as close to primary as it could get. I am not trying to be a "nice guy" by saying that sex was not the primary goal, but during the first two months, I was not thinking exclusively that I wanted to get her in bed.

Sinistar, I appreciate your comments. I realize that for any criticism to achieve its' desired purpose to be helpful, it must, at times, sound harsh. I'll admit it. I really don't understand AFC that well, but I do understand ONE-itis, and I probably do have that - at this point. However, I am very open to meeting new women, but I don't go to bars and many of the "clubs" in my area are exclusive to people based on nationality (i.e., Italian, Irish, Russian, etc.)

I want to explain again. The reason I did not ask for her phone number or a date is because I thought doing so at our first meeting would be too soon. During our second meeting is when I first started finding interest for her. During our third meeting is when she first mentioned her bf. However, each meeting afterwards she encouraged me to stay at her p.o.e. even when I was prepared to leave. During some of these meetings, we found we had quite a lot in common. I also have been seeing additional possibilities for this situation because she avoids mentioning the bf, and she does not wear a ring that I have always understood was a definite indicator of a serious relationship.

Even though I did not ask her out, I did try some subtle stuff. For instance, I offered to drive her to several places she needed to go, and she declined the offers. I thought doing this would give us an opportunity to be alone together.

I am going to go out and meet other women. I just did not want this... relationship, friendship, acquaintance, whatever the word for it is... to end so abruptly.

 

[MightyMate]

You just got bored or she did. Or she never been interested really, it was just time matter.

 

[Aaron B]

"Friends talk. Lovers make love."

Read those words carefully and reflect on their meaning.

 

[Latinoman]

She NEVER had sexual interest. Time to move on.

 

[Chrispy]

A couple of things I learnt in a situation similar to yours:
- you need to strike while the pot is hot. Since you did no such thing, the kettle cooled and so did your (or her) interest.
- the bf she has but never talks about. Yes she has a bf but she's looking. She likeD you and that is why you never heard of this so-called bf. For some reason girls never like to reveal or be reminded they have a bf.

Treat this situation as a good learning experience and then apply it as you spin many newer plates.

 

[lee36044]

Think what everyone is saying and what I see here too is this: You are in the friend zone with a girl who only has time for boyfriends. Should have been less subtle and went for what she was really offering ... it probably wasn't friendship!

Women can be as bad as any AFC male about saying all I want is friends when what they really want is you in their bed.

 

[Bonhomme]

Disregard any advice that you "should have made a move": someone doesn't tell you she has a BF if she wants you to make a move. More likely a gal would tell you her BF is not her BF if she was interested in you beyond a friendship. I've had that happen many times, even with gals who were practically married, for all intents and purposes.

If anything, she sensed too much interest on your part, and has been trying to push you away. Forget about anything beyond being her acquaintance, and spin lots of plates.