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Question for Slickster, Backbreaker and Rollo

Die Hard

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So you guys are married... Rollo recently told me he has never cheated on his wife and I'm pretty sure Slick and Back haven't either.

My question is: Why?

Before you guys were married, you had (or would have had) absolutely no problem with spinning plates and banging several chicks at the same time. So why do you have a problem with it now? What ADVANTAGE does it bring you to be monogamous with your wife?

If it's a moral thing where you do it out of "respect" to her, then why didn't you ALWAYS adopt this attitude with other girls from the past as well? Why would you feel guilty or bad over it with this one and not with all the other girls in the past? If this is really the case of you applying a different moral code for your wife, opposed to the girls before her...it would seem like you just decided to be weak, lower your defences and allow a woman to put the ONEITIS spell on you.

Doesn't SoSuave (you guys included) teach us to make sure we stay OUT of the clutches women try to catch us in? To not let them trap us in their cage? Aren't we suposed to be OUR OWN MAN, always willing to walk away from her and make sure she is just an EXTRA to our lifes instead of the CENTRE of our life? Then why on earth would you guys eventually decide to be bound to just one woman, after all? Coz it seems to me that the very fact that you are denying yourself other great pussy, PROVES that your woman has too much control over you. Who is she to have that kind of control over your actions? Is she really THAT special? And if you think that she is...then doesn't that kinda reek of irrational ONEITIS?

If a woman has actually that much of control over a man, that he will deny his most basic instinct (to fvck women. And we all know you guys can fvck A LOT of other women if you want to, so it must be even harder for you people to restrain yourselves, not to pick up the joyful fruits that are so easily within your grasp!) for her...would it not mean that woman HAS become the centre of his life, instead of an extra? That he has handed over too much of himself to her?

Should I imagine it like this: You always felt bad about cheating on a girl and just did it anyway, but FINALLY you just had enough of it and decided this wasn't who you wanted to be (a "bad" person) and as you found a girl who seemed right for you, she allowed you to finally give into that inner wish to be a "good" (=be loyal) person after all?

Or what?

Why exactly is it that the often heard comparisons like "I love pizza but I also love Chinese...and French fries...and spare ribs... So why would I eat pizza every day of the week when I can also choose to mix it up with other great foods?" are somehow not applicable (anymore) to you guys? What makes the DIFFERENCE?

I humbly request other posters not to post in this thread until the three guys I directed my question to, have given their own answers. I want Rollo, Slick and Backbreaker to give us their genuine answers, which they came up with themselves...instead of them responding to all kinds of other ideas and theories that other posters would throw in before them. I know there are many great posters who have very wise words to speak about the subject, but please, let those three do their speaking first, then we'll take the discussion from there.
 

backbreaker

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I have answered this a few times. I'm going to paste my response here

well, I liked her alot, and while she was okay being with me, she's always wanted to be married. she was willing to not be married, at least on the outside, but everytime something would happen, and we got into an argument, it all came back to her being scared i was going to leave her for someone else. my wife is a few years older than me too.

so as long as we were not married there would be this 800 pound gurllia in the room. Not only that, she really is a catch.. 34 years old, still wears a size 3 pants and can jog 5 miles quite easily everyday, great in bed, no feminist BS, smart as a whip, very down to earth, no real baggage.. she's the type of woman that if I wasn't ready to marry her someone else would without hesitation. So I came to the conclusion that it was not realistic for me to think we would live together for ever and never be married, especially with her being 34 years old (32 at the time i proposed) and her being in the downward of her prime.

She never came out and said it,. but she didn't have to. The last big time argument we got into, when she stalked me because of the messages i had on my phone only to find out i was meeting my assistant lol, told me clear as day this couldn't go on for ever like this and that if we were to be together if I really wanted to keep h er in my life we would have to be married.


I had the exact same viewpoint.. I just didn't see the benefits, but as I got oldwer I realized that wasn't a very realistic viewpoint long term. Let me rephrease.. I akin it to breeding thoroughbred horses.

IF you know anything about breeding thoroughbreds you know that the really good sires, can and do easily command 6 figures per breeding. So if I have a mare and I want to bred to say, Tapit, I have to cough up $125k just so my mare can get fvcked by Tapit which takes all of 1 mintue. Not all sires are this expensive, but there are some. \

Every year when the sire prices come out, you will hear everyone bellyhooiong about how they will never pay this much to breed to a sire, and they make a point beucase, whenj you look at the numbers, it's just not realistic. A thoroughbred cost a little bit around $3k a monthy to keep in trainig in california, so that's 36k just to have a thoroughbred in training. Plus the 125k you spent to breed for this horse. Not including keeping the horse at a farm when he's born, breaking the horse, any additional traveling or vet bills you are at.

So with a horse like that, you are easiliy 300k in the hole before your high priced horse ever steps foot on a race track. lol, IF he steps foot on the race track. About 1/3rd of the horses that are born evrey year nefver step foot on the track for one reason or the other.

Very few horses will make 300k in their lifetime. Let's say this horse I paid for, could run a little. wasn't a super star or anything but had a little run. He won a maiden, won an allowance, came in 2-3rd in some non graded stakes, then as he got older I had to drop him into a claiming race where he was clamed off me for 40k. That might be around 160k-200k right there, maybe if you are lucky.

To win 300k and all the money come to you, you have to basically be a graded stakes caliber horse. And less than 1% of all horses born every year are that.

so basically what I am saying is, you are virtually guaranteed to lose money. So everyone says that these breeders are raping the horse owners.

but here is the thing. lol, the people who own tapit and announced he was booked for 125k in November, are over booked 1 month later and are turning away clients. They announced in november his fee, already a full book of 110-120 or so mares.

People who want to win big tine races will happily pony up the money because he produces big time race horses. Also and this is getting into the more techncal aspects of horse racing, but owners of really good mares (Female horses), that are really high class, will bred to really high class sires like tapit to 1. have very classy female babies or 2. to have a 7 figure or close to 7 figure yearling int he sales, so even though they are spending 125k to bred, they might make 800k off the sale at the end of the day becuase of the class of the mare combined...too much info lol) or that can win the kentucky derby the breeders cup, etc. He's that calibur of sire. Not all of his horses do, but him and a few others produce world class calbiur race horses at a higher clip than most sires.

What those breeders who are complaining do not realize, as did I realize when I was 22-23 years old, hell 24-25 years old, is that the catch/desired object, has the ability to dictate terms. Because if you don't pay them, there will be a line of people behind you that will.

If you are hell bent against marriage, you will be dealing with left overs for the vast majority of your life. All the catches want to get married and because they are serious catch hes, they will and probably marry well, because they are catches. There is no world where these HB9's are walking around with great credit, down to earth, no baggage that are just dying to shack up with you for the rest of your life with no ring lol. There is no world where Megyn Kelly isn't going to get married if she doesn't want to. Dude if megyn kelly, lol with her 2 kids got divorced tomororw there would be a line of rich dudes around time square camping out to date her out. Spinning plates, should be a process to determine a who is LTR material, not a life style IMHO.

I by no means am saying you should drop everything the second you see a decent looking woman. But if you find a woman that is honestly worth keeping around, you are an idiot if you don't think there is a line of guys that won't quickly put a ring on her finger if you won't. and she knows this. My wife knows she is attractive, and she's a brit too and it just drive guys (like me) crazy with that accent. If i broke up with her tomorrow she would probably have a date by new year's, and would probalby find someone suitable for her within a year or 2 at most, no doubt in my mind, if that's what she wants. And because I honestly love her and see the benefits of having her around, we compliment each other quite well, I wanted to do what i had to do to keep her around.

IN my perfect world she would hate the idea of marriage, but the world is not perfect. If I didn't, the alternative would be the fighting over trust /commitment happening to the point, where she found another guy who was suitable that would marry her and she would leave and while I'm ***** whipped or antyhing, letting a girl who passed every plate spin, **** test, and spending 3 years with me with flying colors, the mother of my son, and woman who I trust with my own life and who crazy about, walk because I wouldn't sign a marriage document, is pretty silly IMHO.
If it's a moral thing where you do it out of "respect" to her, then why didn't you ALWAYS adopt this attitude with other girls from the past as well?
because she has earned that right. there was a time when she was one of my plates. she rose up through the ranks so to speak to get where she is by hard work, being a catch anjd doing what a woman is supposed to do in my eyes.


Why would you feel guilty or bad over it with this one and not with all the other girls in the past?
it's not even about feeling gulility or bad. if i wanted to fvck another woman i would probably get a divorce or well, cheat. i have no desire at all to fvck anyone else and haven't for years. i've had women so much as come out of a bathroom with nothing but a towel on soak and wet and i still had no desire to (long story). it's not about suppressing what i really want to do because if my undying commitment, i have no desire to in the first place.

t would seem like you just decided to be weak, lower your defences and allow a woman to put the ONEITIS spell on you
oneisits by it's defination is when you HAVE to have one woman and you put a woman on a pedistool. my wife is not on a pedistool and I know i could movfe on if i had to. i am just in love :). there is a difference.

Aren't we suposed to be OUR OWN MAN, always willing to walk away from her and make sure she is just an EXTRA to our lifes instead of the CENTRE of our life?
why would i walk away from a woman who has given me no reason to walk away from ?

If a woman has actually that much of control over a man
see, this is your problem. you make 2 assumptions

1. that because I am only fvcking one woman, that I CANNOT fvck other women
2. that my wife does not know i am deserible by other women.


Rollo said it best a few days ago.. a woman wants a man who doesn't cheat.. but could.

in other words, you have men who are "faithful" because they don't they love who they are with more than the other girls out there, and you have men who are faithful because they have no choice but to be faithful. women do not want to be with a man who they are with just b euacse that's all they can get. women want a man who they know other women want but they "won", but with that, they know that that man can go get someone else.


keep in mind, my wife never asked me to marry her. she never came out and told me she was going to leave if i didn't marry her. in fact quite the opposite. i mean we've had the discussion before i proposed a few times and she made it clear that her main objective was just to be with me and that if i really did not want to get married, she would be content with that. getting married was MY idea.
 

Die Hard

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Cool, thanks for replying so fast. I'm not gonna respond yet (fingers are itching, though :)) and wait for Rollo and Slick to give their responses.
 
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Slickster

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Well I can't speak for the other guys but here is my take...

My experience with women started WAY early. I went on my first date when I was in Grade 1. No kidding. I took my "girlfriend" to the movies (with my Mom, aunt, and cousins). My family still jokes about it to this day. It sounds ridiculous I know, but I always seemed to have multiple girlfriends at a young age. I remember kissing different girls at school all the time.

As a teenager I tried to take those "relationships" more seriously because we were "going steady". :crackup:. I do remember kissing other girls some times though and feeling bad about it later.

After highschool I had several long term relationships throughout my 20's that I did consider serious. I loved every one of those girls and I cheated on them all. Sometimes with their best friends and in one case her sister. I never really got caught.

As time went on I took relationships and women less seriously and avoided being caught in relationships and just tried to have fun. It never really worked that well because even random hook-ups became clingy and wanted more. Even if I refused these girls somehow considered me "special" and when I hooked up with someone else they considered it cheating even though we were never exclusive. Lots of broken hearts back then. My views of women and relationships became VERY jaded.

The reason I tell these stories is to show that I have A LOT of experience with cheating on girlfriends.

Something I learned along the way:

In my experience, every time you cheat it's like tiny little daggers stabbing you in the heart and soul. It doesn't hurt you much at first. There might be a little twinge of pain, but you justify it to yourself as "worth it". You move on and continue to cheat. It gets easier and easier and you get used to those little twinges of pain until it doesn't bother you at all. You haven't been caught so nobody is getting hurt (so you think.) Then somewhere down the road you look at yourself in the mirror and all you see are the scars. All the good stuff you thought you had in your relationship is gone. It's been tainted and there is no way you can get it back. You traded it all for a some brief moments of fun. You realize that all this time you've been cheating yourself. You've cheated yourself out of achieving anything real in your relationships. Your partner doesn't know, but you do and you have to live with it. When you reflect upon yourself you see a liar and someone you can't trust.

When I met my wife as told in the Slick Tales thread I wasn't really looking for anything more than fun. My wife is no more "special" than any of those girlfriends that I loved in my 20's. She doesn't hold any power over me and I do not consider her to be my oneitis at all. I feel like I am WAY beyond those kind of problems.

What's different is me. I made a choice to believe in myself, in my wife, and the love that we share. After being married for several years there is a sense of love between us and our families as well. You may think that is corny as hell and I used to as well. It really is that simple though.

I experience opportunities to cheat almost every single day. I meet new, beautiful, and interesting women all the time. They are all around me and many times the opportunities are thrown right in my face. I've even had my friend's girlfriends and wives express desire. Is there temptation? Sure that's natural, but in the end it's all just sex, and I've had lots of that. All of these things threaten to destroy the true happiness that I now have. There comes a time when a hot piece of a$$ ceases to rule your world.

In summary you might say that I stopped letting pvssy be my oneitis. :)
 

backbreaker

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if you have never been with a woman who was single and then is married (well you could not have unless you have been mrried). it's a night anday difference. she never was just like, a ***** or mean, in fact she's always been quiet pleasant, but, ever since i proposed she is just.. happier. not os much happier but more, compete if that makes any sense. it's like she feel she has done what she was supposed to do, now she can kick back and have fun, which is cool. she's always in a very good mood.

this is what woman live for, rather you wantt o accecpt it or not, to get a husband and start a family and she has a pretty damn good husband and a son that is handsome and smart as a whip and loves his mommy very much. I mean.. that's it for a woman. women's goals are not our goals. she wants to see me happy and see me achieve what i want to achieve, but her, just her, her goal is to be my wife.

we took our son to mcdonalds this morning, we do this a few times a month so he can go play in the little mcdonalds play land (great pick up spot for single moms BTW, a ton of them there on saturday and sunday morning). I mean, just as happy as can be. playing with him and helping him up the slide and stuff. that's like us fvcking a hb8 right there for a woman.

too tell a catch that you won't marry her fis to tell her that you won't allow her to achieve her life goals. that's just not going to work.
 

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Bible_Belt

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The only people who think marriage is a big deal are people who haven't been divorced yet.
 

Die Hard

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Hah, you were quicker to respond than I expected, Slick. Thanks for sharing!

That just leaves Rollo's opinion. Which will probably be a very lengthy essay (I hope so!), so let him take his time and keep our mouths shut, Bible_Belt? After the man speaks his part, everyone can join in and I hope we can get a really deep, intelligent and CIVILIZED discussion going about the subject.
 

5string

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My wife has little control over me and is aware of this. Sure, I look at other women, but I would never cheat on her. Why, because she earned it by her actions and deserves my respect. I expect the same.

A little off topic, but more often than not, I think it's more difficult to keep proper frame and apply dj priciples in a marriage rather than a regular relationship.
 

backbreaker

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5string said:
My wife has little control over me and is aware of this. Sure, I look at other women, but I would never cheat on her. Why, because she earned it by her actions and deserves my respect. I expect the same.

A little off topic, but more often than not, I think it's more difficult to keep proper frame and apply dj principles in a marriage rather than a regular relationship.
marriage is the ultimate DJ test. beucdase you have to keep a woman in line while at the same time, not having any additional options to pit against her, something that non married DJ's have the tion of doing when spinning paltes. plus you see the same woman everyday. think it's hard enough to make a woman miss yoand think about you when you are dating try when you sleep in the same bed lol.


after the last 3 or so years with my wife i would be a terror to society if i ever became single again lol.
 

5string

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backbreaker said:
marriage is the ultimate DJ test. beucdase you have to keep a woman in line while at the same time, not having any additional options to pit against her, something that non married DJ's have the tion of doing when spinning paltes. plus you see the same woman everyday. think it's hard enough to make a woman miss yoand think about you when you are dating try when you sleep in the same bed lol.


after the last 3 or so years with my wife i would be a terror to society if i ever became single again lol.
I bet you would be a terror!

What you say is true backbreaker. I'm going on 4 yrs of marriage now. Not to sound like a sissy AFC, but I actually look forward to going home to my wife. We spend alot of time together either talking or doing various things. She is always on my arm and we still "do it" nearly every day. It's still exciting because we both try to make it interesting. The desire is still there for us both and I still think she's uber hot. Is it oneitis? Love? Call it whatever you wish. My marriage started off a bit rocky, but things got worked out and I'm just loving every minute of it. She would say the same thing if you were to ask her.

Marriage is certainly not for everyone, but most guys would like to have a really good one that will not be mundane, routine or otherwise boring. At least I think so. Of course finding a woman who is suitable, marrying her and making it "work" is an entirely different thing.

By the way, nice read Rollo
 

backbreaker

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not only that, she really is my best friend. she gets me on a level that no one has ever gotten me before. my mother doesn't even understand me like my wife does, which mostly is more becuase of who my mother is but that's a different story. we are to the point where i don't even have to say antyhing half the time she just knows what i am thinking and usually why i'm thinking it. she understands WHY I do the things I do, she understands why i get mad and frustrated, she understands what makes me happy, she knows how to make me laugh and that's not very easy to do for anyone as i don't find very many people funny. she knows when to give me my space, she knows when she needs to tell me something i might not want to hear and isn't afraid to do so.

Reading Rollo's post, I don't know exactly how many women I slept with, but it was more than enough. it' just.. how can i put this... yes sex is nice, but going through the "routine" fo someone learning about you gets old at least for me it did. yes I started a company blah blah yeah I play the piano wow yeah I like history and work out aren't i special.. time and time and time again everytime you pick up a new palte. there comes a point where for me that whole routine just got old. i like to advance to the next stage.my wife not only knows i like jazz, she knows what type of jazz i do and do not like. I remember this one chick tied to impress me by buying a jazz cd and she bought some new age jazz. i despise new age jazz, anyone who is around me for any amount of time knows this. i like how we can flip stations or a song comes on and she knows to leave it on that song beucase "that's my song" or a song i really like, and likewise for her. i like how she knows me to the point where she knows not only that i like history, she knows what type of history interests me (religious history, japanese history, nazi history, american history, especially presidental history) and if she sees a show that she knows i will like she will make note of it. I like how she knows i love looking at her feet and she hasn't worn a pair of non heels or non opened toed shoes in forever lol. not only does she know she just knows that's one of my things and doesn't give me hell over it. lol ilike feet what can i say. i like how when we are sitting down and watching TV she automatically props her feet up for me to give her a foot massage. which i'm sure she likes to. we are so in tun with each other as far as our passion for horse racing and horses in generral for her that i don't have to play the d you or do you not like horse racing game with women anymore. that's what i do and who I am. now i just get home from the gym, do some work or what not, change clothes and ask her is she coming with me to the track or not. 9 out of 10 times she is. even more so, i like how she can call me and i tell her i'm at the track and she will say okay i'll be there in a mintue and not even have to ask me WHERE at the track i am, she knows. In short I just thnik my wife is pretty bad ass. at least for me.


I do believe however, that in 2012, the only way a successful marriage, by successful i mean not just not getting a divorce, but a happy, fulfilling in all areas, can take place is if a guy is able to go through a periood of tiome where he is sowing his oats so to speak. he has to not oly learn how to deal wtih women, he has to basically get it out of his system. a married man should never have to ask himself what if. he shoudl be saying "yeah I remember..." or "yeah she reminds me of"
 

samspade

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I assume it's okay to put in my $.02 now...

Why did I get married? Because I have a great time with my wife, better than I've had with any other woman. We have similar goals and interests and priorities. We rarely argue. And all that.

Now, the full disclosure is that we married because she'd have to go back to Brazil otherwise. That was an external factor that I would have preferred not to have dealt with, but at the same time, that was the life I had chosen. I'd done a lot of traveling, and met my share of women abroad, so it should have come as no shock that one might catch more than a passing fancy. If we had our druthers, my wife and I would still be happy without the added paperwork from the state.

Of course I look at other women, and if I were single, yeah sure I'd love to hit this or that. But I don't miss other women. I had great experiences, but they're just memories now. What I miss sometimes is game itself, but let me clarify: I don't miss dating, I don't miss discovery, and I don't even miss the varied sex life. If there is one thing I could say I miss, it's the rush I got from approaching, anticipation, rejection, and the like. Usually the sexual encounter was not much more than pretty good. But the rush from knowing you're causing attraction - seeing a woman's pupils dilate for instance - that's a lot of fun. That can still happen, of course, but my game is such that I operate within a different set of ground rules.

It's not because I'm a great man (even though I am). My wife makes this possible for me. Like Rollo said about cause...I just don't want to cheat on my wife. She goes out of her way to treat me like a king, and I enjoy it. (I full acknowledge the evolutionary machinations at play.) I believe in what is said around here about Frame, but I also think it CAN be a two-way street. This may sound weird and a bit mens-rightsy, but if more women gave men the opportunity to lead, you'd see stronger relationships.

If I ever change my mind, and decide the life isn't for me, I'll at least respect her enough to be honest with her about it.
 

AlNess

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I haven't been married long....a couple of weeks shy of 15 months. I haven't, and wouldn't, cheat on my wife simply because I don't want to. Why would I jeopardize what I have with my wife over an extra-curricular orgasm?

It is a moral thing; but it's also a love and respect thing. My wife and I have a beautiful 4-month-old daughter who is the greatest thing to ever happen to me. The married father who cheats not only cheats on his wife; he also cheats on his children. I could never betray my daughter and jeopardize her family's foundation, as well as the opinion of me she would form while growing up.

Does that mean I'm above admiring another woman's physical beauty - from afar? I'm married, not gay. For one, I certainly don't look at other women when I'm with my wife; I don't even do so when I'm out with one of my male friends, out of respect for my wife (not because it's "expected" of me, but because I honestly don't see it right). But even when I do see an attractive woman around, at work or anywhere else, I find that my response isn't what it once was. She could be a smokin-hot 9.5, and I'm just thinking, "Nice"...and my attention immediately shifts to something else. I could wonder how it might be to bang her, but I surely don't find myself thinking "If only I were still single..." I realize that even if I was single and did bang her, that it might be might not even be that big a deal, and I would most likely find myself dealing with all kinds of childish games and behavior, potential BPD, baggage, and drama....all for very limited periods of physical pleasure. Banging that woman would be a distant memory, lost in the shuffle with memories of others I've banged; and honestly, it's not as if I can recall and discern between the quality of one pu$$y I've had and another. They're all the same to me as far as I'm concerned. It's that inconsequential to me.

That said, I've drawn my lines very clearly. I'm not interested in visiting bars or clubs, being around drunken lushes, flirting, and hitting on women. My priorities have just changed.
 

backbreaker

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do yourself a favor and watch the pbs special on bill Clinton that just came out. it will show you just how important a good woman.. CAN be not is but can be if you find her. a good wife is like seriously like the other half of you. bill clinton would not be where he is today if not for Hillary. she brought him back from the ashes more than once. she complimented him to a fault and understood what his faults were and helped work past them
i just chcule at the no marriage crew, beucas it's so childish. yes i like sex just like the next guy and i have had lots of it, but im' more than just a walking vckbox. i'm ambitious, i have goals and if you find a woman that is able and wiling to commit her life to help YOU achieve your goals, and she is comptable with you, you take it.
 

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Albatross953

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I haven't been on here that long, but some of the wisdom and responses on this forum is truly amazing. Actually some of you guys hold the same views as the marriage forum I participate in. Which is ironic if you think about the goals of the two sites.

All three of you have what look like extremely grounded attitudes, and great marriages. Can I ask a question though? Rollo brings up a good point. You are all in strong marriages now, with kids, bills, and complete trust. What happens one day if you wake up and find out she cheated? Do you dynamite the whole thing?

No offense intended, I am genuinely asking.
 

5string

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Albatross953 said:
I haven't been on here that long, but some of the wisdom and responses on this forum is truly amazing. Actually some of you guys hold the same views as the marriage forum I participate in. Which is ironic if you think about the goals of the two sites.

All three of you have what look like extremely grounded attitudes, and great marriages. Can I ask a question though? Rollo brings up a good point. You are all in strong marriages now, with kids, bills, and complete trust. What happens one day if you wake up and find out she cheated? Do you dynamite the whole thing?

No offense intended, I am genuinely asking.
Personally, I'd bail if my wife cheated. This is a line that cannot be crossed. She knows this. Could I forgive her? Sure. Stay married to her? Nope.
 

speed dawg

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Albatross953 said:
Can I ask a question though? Rollo brings up a good point. You are all in strong marriages now, with kids, bills, and complete trust. What happens one day if you wake up and find out she cheated? Do you dynamite the whole thing?

No offense intended, I am genuinely asking.
Legitimate question, but I think you are missing the big picture here, focusing on outcomes and not the means. I don't know that I've ever seen a marriage fail where a true alpha male was involved (assuming he didn't mess up ala Tiger Woods).
 

speed dawg

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There is a fundamental element of marriage that many of you, Rollo included, are not addressing. I agree with Rollo's blog post and actually think this it is an outstanding site (I'm sure he knows this already though). But he did say that he had no real answer to why he proposed to Mrs. Tomassi.

Marriage is a religious institution. Without religion, there should probably be no marriage except to bear and raise children. It is THE fundamental base of marriage. I hate to bring this up because religion is frowned upon here and no one will agree, but that's MY OPINION, one I do happen to believe in. You know why I believe it? Because of personal experience in my own life. Think about it, at some point you have to address where marriage came from, and it wasn't just 'invented' by men. Marriage is not a Western phenomena. So spare me the black helicopter theories.

Now, by all means, flame away.
 

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speed dawg said:
Now, by all means, flame away.
wait! me too!

This is something no one wants to hear, but I'll say it for the sake of perspective on this discussion. When I talk to people about marriage who have not yet been divorced, it's just like talking about sex with a virgin. Their reality is one of intangibles that only they see as important. Fairy tale ideas are still real to them. And sometimes those unrealistic concepts end up never getting shattered for all of one's life, but especially these days, the odds are pretty slim.

I really and truly don't wish divorce on anyone, especially anyone here. If you have never been married and your woman has also never been previously married, then my points aren't relevant. You both live in the same reality. My point is that divorce completely changes everyone's perspective on marriage. I'm very glad that my girlfriend and I are both divorced. Our fairy tale ideas about marriage have already been shattered, so we don't have to go through all that stupid bullsh!t again.
 
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