Probation tip from David D's DYD eBook works (part 1).

[Monkey]

Originally posted by Starman
dude you just met her and are acting like a father who is trying to teach his daughter right from wrong..

Agreed it made me cringe to read these emails. Its something I would have done myself a few years ago

If someone likes you, they like you and want to spend time with you, and 9/10 no amount of telling her off or putting her straight will sway that.

 

[dietzcoi]

Well I am 43 with a 21 year old GF so it can be done, but yes she gets flaky at times and yes I do call her on it... but this is after dating for 3 months, not at the beginning!

Agree with all here... why would you put up with her excuses for flaking on the 2d, 3d and 4th dates? It is obvious to all of us what is going on but you are too emotionally involved to see it..

As soon as a (new) woman flakes like that, next her. It is already over only you do not want to face it.

My 21 year old chased me and made sure she was available for me. If the girl likes you she will be free to see you... always! If she makes bogus excuses about forgetting she had something else to do, etc... NEXT!!

Dietzcoi

 

[NMMWCR]

ZeeOwl,

I did the online personals thing absolutely to death when I was getting my wings. I've learned how to play that game the hard way. Some things to keep in mind:

The most productive approach is email a short hello, exchange two more emails with a fluff topic designed to draw out her hotbutton words and core values (which you put to use later), close for a meeting. NEVER go past that fourth email without closing for a meeting. Otherwise you make a penpal. By penpal, I mean that she turns you into the absolute lowest form of emotional tampon on the planet. Some of the conventional ones at least go into cuddle ***** mode. You don't get to touch her, you don't get to hear her voice, you don't even get to see what she looks like. Don't let this happen. It is massively pathetic. AFC's will look down on you with scorn.

First meeting needs to be someplace very public, close to other things to do, and have the potential to end quickly. My best close was, "You want to get together for coffee or ice cream or corndogs? Leave me you phone number."

The first meeting needs to progress from what was promised quickly. Finish your coffee, ice cream, or corndog quickly. If things are going well say "let's go window shopping." The beauty of places like Starbucks, CornDog7, and Marble Slab is they are located in strip centers or shopping malls. You can always walk to something interesting. Lead her towards a nearby shop directing her towards the door with a hand on the back near the kidneys. You got this part right. The 'coffee' part of a meeting is a transition. from internet mode Nothing really happens there. Getting her out of the coffee house puts her in a mode of "hmmm, second date already."

After the first meeting, the emails stop. You can send short one or two liners but no discussion. Meeting in person ups the sexual tension from email from "ho-hum" to "we'll see." Going back to email is wussing out. You had her in your sights and the let up the pressure. Your interaction needs to be eyeball to eyeball at this point or she will get BORED. Bored is worse than annoyed, unimpressed, and pissed off combined.

****y and Funny is hard to do over email. Most of that gimmick is in tone of voice, eye contact, and proper use of kino. She can't tell if you have GOT "attitude" or if you just HAVE an "attitude" over email. You should have called her to use the probation gimmick.

 

[squirrels]

Getting way too heavy. The first E-mail was great...when you responded lecturing her with a SECOND E-mail, things were just getting heavy. Girls that age don't enjoy heavy relationships, especially since she just met you.

You had made your point with the first letter. You didn't need to keep hammering it home.

Oh well...better luck next time. After dropping three dates, I would've been less merciful.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Originally posted by NMMWCR
ZeeOwl,

You should have called her to use the probation gimmick.

I agree with you. I think I was doing OK until I did that. She did call me first after the date, so I think her IL was at least 5 at that point. Should not have gone back to eMail. Saw a tip on that here a few days ago explaining the why of that, but too late for this situation. Oh well, I'm learning.

Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate it, even if you're B-slapping me a bit. Just for the record, as a few of you seem to have misundertood this bit, she did not forget our second date. She told me that she had forgotten about the prior engagement that she had already taken. But I didn't buy her story. I think she was just embarassed about not even having a bike, but didn't want to admit it. So she made up this cocamany story about a prior forgotten engagement, and then her "friend" that never showed up, etc... Then felt so bad about her nutty stories that she didn't want to face me anymore. Also for the record, from our convo during the date (which wasn't fluff talk) I got the impression that she's a bit messed up. That's OK, so am I. lol

I knew at the time that the DJ thing to do was next her after the second flake-out. But if I'd done that, I would have lost an opportunity to test DD's probation gimmick. And I wanted to try it. I realize now that I applied it wrong. My primary goal here was to learn as much as possible, and I wouldn't have learned anything new by nexting her. So what if she now thinks I'm an AFC? I don't care... I have other prospects.

I'm still convinced that the jury is out on whether anything else will come of this. I think her view of me right now is a mega-question mark. So is mine of her. I will send her a very short eMail in reply to her's in a week. I'll keep it light, fun, and tell her to call me when she's settled in. I'll see if she calls in 2 weeks. That will settle it. Meanwhile, I'll keep working/learning from my other prospects.

One thing I should mention about this girl. She's no hottie, and she knows it. She's not ugly either, but about a 5 on my scale, and I'm not picky. She does have a nice bod though, but they nearly all do at that age, right? During our date convo, she hinted at being jealous of her little sister, who's much better looking than she is, and has guys chasing her all the time (her words). She also knows she has issues (she told me). So just maybe I'm her only prospect right now... I'm sure there's no lineup of guys beating down her door. Especially not in her age group for which appearance is 90% of a girl's appeal...

She knew I was 40 from our 1st MSN convo. Didn't phase her at all (the C&F sexual innuendo probably helped). I'm aware that I acted like a "scolding daddy" when I started trying the "probation" gimmick. Who's to say that's not what she wants? Maybe that's why she re-initiated contact... She could have just let it go, and not answered my eMail. I have her phone number and know where she lives, so I could have easily chased her if I'd wanted to. She knows this. I doubt she wrote to me after 2 weeks to "save face", because she'd be setting herself up for a possible second helping... She's a little weird, but still above-average smart. That I picked up on our date too.

Anyways, lets wait and see.

 

[STR8UP]

Yea, everyone is right, it isn't an issue of her being unreliable. And it isn't that she is young, although there is some truth in saying that younger girls tend to be more flighty.

The age issue isn't that big of a deal. I'm dating a chick that is in college and ten years my junior as we speak, and she would rather die than be late to or cancel a date with me. She is usually EARLY to our meetings. How often does that happen?

Might as well write this one off homes......you killed it......just make sure you don't walk away without having learned your lesson.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Originally posted by STR8UP
I'm dating a chick that is in college and ten years my junior as we speak, and she would rather die than be late to or cancel a date with me. She is usually EARLY to our meetings. How often does that happen?

Might as well write this one off homes......you killed it......just make sure you don't walk away without having learned your lesson.

It's happened to me twice. A woman (42) who I've been on 2 dates with over the past 2 weeks. She was early both times. Though I have to mention that I prepped her with DD's anti-flake prevention treatment first.

I'm not writing this one off just yet. I will in 2 weeks if she doesn't call. And I learned a lot.

 

[Ragnar]

I tried to pretend this thread made sense but it didn't work.


Would someone please tell me if this guy has banged her yet? 'Cause if he hasn't, he should at least be having phone sex with her.


Tell me....

 

[TesuqueRed]

Write her off, even if she does call.

She admits she has issues. RED FLAG (it's in the name, I recognize this shyt...)

You misplayed it. Repeatedly. Glaring misplays, too. But that's a learning experience, so it's all good. EXCEPT--if she calls and it "appears" it is still on, you dodged a bullet and god granted you a favor and you should feel lucky and go get it!--right???

Wrong.

Not only does she have issues, this proves she is so desperate, in addition to issues, that you don't wanna know what that ****tail / drug mix can lead to...

You don't want a LTR, STR or ONS under these terms.

One word: pride (she's 5.0....!)

Another: safety (stalker material...or headcase material, whatever.)

It's simply a bad play. No rationalizing it will make it right. You've invested time and effort and money and don't want to admit it's been pyssed away---you have to cut your losses and move on anyway.

Of course the learning experience value is invaluable. Just don't repeat 2nd grade, Ok...?

And she's a 5.0 chick pulling flake moves (your read on her forgetting the other committment was amusing--I wonder how you see this as a positive--??? There's wishful thinking going on here--take that wishful thinking out and re-evaluate. Hint: she may or may not have been honest. You can't tell. End result: no date for you. Look at actions, not words...)

I should repeat that: 5.0 chick pulling game moves and flaking. Imagine--!!! A 5.0 chick pulls moves---??? Are they deluded??? Have they not stood in front of a mirror???

I've been there: a girl clearly beneathe me in terms of value, looks and desirability pulled flake moves on me. Oh no no no! Just laugh and next them immediately, they're playing in self-delusion and fantasyland. And if you don't next, you are actively placing yourself below them. Don't ever willing place yourself below a 5.0 chick (your scale rating, too.)

And, finally, she's a 5.0. Reason enough.

Well, Ok, by way of explanation, and maybe it's just me, but 5.0 usually translates into a solid 45% IL on my part. Consider a decent looking call girl before going after a 5.0 chick--and that's a 5.0 girl on your scale! Make 6.0 your minimum, otherwise your bottom feeding.

Your right hand is better than a 5.0 chick.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Originally posted by TesuqueRed
Write her off, even if she does call.

Not only does she have issues, this proves she is so desperate, in addition to issues, that you don't wanna know what that ****tail / drug mix can lead to...

You don't want a LTR, STR or ONS under these terms.

It's simply a bad play. No rationalizing it will make it right. You've invested time and effort and money and don't want to admit it's been pyssed away---you have to cut your losses and move on anyway.

You obviously know what you're talking about, and I mostly agree with you. All it's cost me so far is about 10$, a bit of gas, and a few hours of my time. Considering everything I learned, I think that's a pretty good return on investment.

I'll be straight up with you. My intention with her, partway into the date and immediately afterwards (before she started flaking) was either LJBF (we have many common interests) or occasional sex-buddy. I never considered her LTR material. STR was maybe until the date. I don't do ONS. When she started with the flaking and lies (I'm pretty sure she was lying), she got demoted to "DD's probation gimmick" test material. I mean, I'm not going to purposefully go AFC on one of my other prospects so she'll flake, just so I can put her on probation! lol Especially since I haven't had one woman flake on me since I started applying DD's flake-prevention program. I've already got a flaky girl here. Why let this opportunity go to waste? The best she could hope for with me now is get promoted back to LJBF or sex-buddy. To get there, she'd have to completely stop the flaking, become completely straight up, and really nice to me. Unlikely, but we'll see... I'll be satisfied just finding out if this gimmick works. Though I admit my application technique wasn't perfect. But I might not get another chance at trying this for a while... Even if she does stop flaking, unless her attitude changes too, I'll next her anyways, promise.

Another: safety (stalker material...or headcase material, whatever.)

Woa Nelly! I said she has issues. i.e. Slightly low self-esteem, weird messy childhood, unreliable, possible compulsive liar. She's not a nut-case. Been through the messy childhood and low self-esteem myself, know what it's like. I've dated some seriously messed up women, and even they weren't dangerous psychos. She's nowhere near the caliber of what I've seen...

And she's a 5.0 chick pulling flake moves (your read on her forgetting the other committment was amusing--I wonder how you see this as a positive--??? There's wishful thinking going on here--take that wishful thinking out and re-evaluate. Hint: she may or may not have been honest. You can't tell. End result: no date for you. Look at actions, not words...)

OK, maybe I exaggerated a bit on the 5 rating. Honestly, considering that she has a very nice bod and the type of style that I like (style to me counts as much as looks) she's a 6.5. She does not have a pretty face, that's why her rating isn't higher. If she fixed herself up a bit better (her haircut especially, which I think is horrible), to me she might be a 7. I was just countering a point made by somebody who said she's a young HB with guys hitting on her all the time. I don't think so. She's just average looking (for a 23-year-old), and she knows it. Coupled with her low self-esteem, I'm sure she's no dude-magnet. Guys that age only oogle at the 8+'s, and since they only care about the face & body, they'd probably rate her a 5-6. Just as a reference point; on my scale an average girl gets 5.5.

I don't think her forgetting the other commitment or the lies was amusing. I think it's kinda pathetic. I just wanted to set the facts straight.

Anyway's, my only goal right now with this whole situation is to find out if she'll call in 2 weeks. Then see if she asks to see me and actually show up. That is all I want to know for sure.

Meanwhile, I have 2 other options to work. I have a maybe, with a IL of 5. Got to see how far up I can manage to push it... hehe And another who's IL went from 6 to 8.5 over the last few weeks since I started applying the DYD and SoSuave stuff to. What's great is I've known her for years, so know her personality inside-out. I got her from LJBF to booty calls whenever I feel like it, and even her calling me to let her come over. Wow! Does this stuff ever rock. And I'm not even really good at it yet. Imagine the possibilities... And gotta keep looking for new prospects... So many women, so little time...

 

[becker]

Wow, the posts in this thread are just way too long to read, so I didn't bother to read all of them.

Anyways, by skimming them, it looks like those e-mails are definitely way too long and the main thing is, why the heck did you even e-mail her instead of calling her or something? They also come off as somewhat AFC and pathetic and when you write e-mails that long, it sort of shows that you can't talk in person so well so you have to do it in writing.

I've e-mailed in the past (nothing ever that elaborate, but long enough) and kept it to one longer one (nothing as long as the ones you wrote), she responded, and that's it, the rest was either by phone or in person. If she doesn't want to meet up either way, then she's not interested. I think it's even better if you don't use e-mail in the beginning, but it depends on the circumstance. E-mail works well if you're still in school and the girl is part of a study group or project and you just want to set up a time to get together, but you're 40 years old and e-mail will make you look creepier, especially those long elaborate ones.

I think the key here is....time to move on, the girl is half your age.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Originally posted by becker
why the heck did you even e-mail her instead of calling her or something?

'Cause I'm a rookie DJ, that's why. Other points were already discussed and understood, but thanks anyway.

 

[becker]

Gotcha, no worries, you seem to have learned, so that's what matters.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Update to my RAFC attempted recovery of the situation. I'll keep you posted on whatever develops, if anything. I'm not expecting a lot, but you never know. Women are unpredictable creatures. And this is definitely a strange one...

Waited a week, and than replied to her last eMail with this:

"Hi F.

Apology accepted I've been pretty busy myself lately. Call me when you're settled in. We'll be able to talk for real. Happy moving.

D."

 

[ZeeOwl]

Update.

I hadn't deleted her from my IM contact list. I was online for a few minutes yesterday, and she started chatting with me. We joked around a bit (including just a touch of C&F sexual innuendo from me). I made no allusions to the previous situation, and she didn't bring it up either.

I told her to call me sometime. She gave me her new phone number (just moved into the University dorm), I didn't ask for it. Then I asked her if she still had my number. She said she'd lost it in the move, so I gave it to her.

Today, I was online for a few minutes, and she started talking to me immediately again. Mostly fluff talk about her new place, and I threw in one C&F sex reference which she laughed and to.

Both convos lasted about 10 minutes, she initiated both of them, and I cut both off. Yeah, I'm learning.

One thing came up which I'm unsure of. When I told her to call me again today, she said she'd rather I call her. When I asked why, she said that she would enjoy being called. Now I know it's AFC to give a woman something because she asks for it, but I'm thinking this may be a particular situation. I was pretty harsh with her (intentionally) in the eMails. And she did initiate contact twice through IM. So I'm thinking maybe I should go easy on her and show that I'm willing to give a little too. What do you guys think? Should I call her, or wait until she does? Of course, if I did call, I would definitely not do it tonight. I'd wait until at least tommorow, to keep her wondering at a little... hehe

 

[Pimp-sicle]

ZeeOwl: Congrats on taking the necessary steps in learning the game. However with this girl you've already blown your cover. You can recover girls like these once you've cut off all contact for A WHILE. You definitely have a "thing" for this young puppy and its showing. Chalk this one up as a learning experience and go get new girls. NEXT



PIMP

 

[ZeeOwl]

Originally posted by Pimp-sicle
However with this girl you've already blown your cover. You can recover girls like these once you've cut off all contact for A WHILE. You definitely have a "thing" for this young puppy and its showing.

I wouldn't be so quick to call this one a lost cause. Sure, initially (as someone pointed out), she may have just not wanted me to be mad at her. Though I don't see why she'd care if her IL was zero. But my behavior with her for the past few days makes it obvious that I'm not mad at her. Yet she's still initiating convos. She's practically chasing me. I'm not sure what her IL is, but it's obviously more than zero. Sure I have interest in her, for a multitude of reasons. What's wrong with showing a little? She has some self-esteem issues, so I think she needs some encouragement otherwise she'll give up. Especially now that she knows that I'll come down hard on her (no pun intended) if she disses me. I think she needs some reassurance that I'm capable of being nice to her too.

What would you consider "a while"? Here's the timeline of recent contact with her:
6 weeks ago - I sent her that way too long 2nd eMail telling her what my position was on the whole situation, and inviting her to call me when she feels up to it.
4 weeks ago - She eMails me. Apologizes for taking so long to write back, and says she'll be moving soon.
3 weeks ago - I answered her eMail. Accepted her apology and told her to call me when she had moved.
4 days ago - She gets a bulk eMail I sent to everyone in my address book advertizing a dance for non-smokers in my city. It's obvious it's bulk, as it mentions admission for kids and she doesn't have any.
2 days ago - She IMs me about 5 minutes after she sees me online. She tells me she just moved into her dorm room and started working on her master's degree. I C&F her how I can imagine the paperwork strewn all over the place. We joke around and small talk a bit. I allude to a (sex innuendo) inside joke between us. She tells me she has a good memory, with a . I tell her to call me. She gives me her new # (I didn't ask for it). I ask her if she still has mine. She say's she lost it while moving. I give it to her, suggesting she store all her lovers' #s in her computer so she won't lose them, that's what I do. haha! She jumped on that to tease me. After 25 minutes, I cut off the convo.
Yesterday - she IMs me as soon as she sees me online. I reply to her "Hi" with "Hi. So how do you like your new mistress room?" haha! She loved that. We joked around a bit. I told her to call me again. She insists that I call her, saying she'd enjoy getting called. After 15 minutes I cut off the convo. At midnight (I was asleep) she IMs me "good night" even though my status is still set to "away" (my computers are online 24/7).
Today - Nothing. I've left my status to "away" all day. She's been online all evening, but I don't want to chat with her, because I want to give her the gift of missing me. Been busy here, with my other prospects and setting up a date for Friday anyways. hehe I'm thinking of showing some goodwill by calling her maybe tommorow, or during the weekend.

Chalk this one up as a learning experience and go get new girls. NEXT

I am getting other girls too. But I don't see what advantage there would be for me to NEXT this one (yet). I think the NEXT mentality is fine in college environment, where all you have to do to meet girls is leave your dorm room. I'm not in that situation. I live on a rural route, I'm 40, I'm self employed with my office in my house, and my customers are construction companies. My opportunities for meeting women are quite thin. 50% of women my age are in LTRs/married, and a good portion of the remaining ones are bad news. I have about 5 to 8 prospects right now (depending how you look at it). Every one was hard work to find. I'm not going to trash one of them because she messed up once. Everyone is entitled to a second chance. She started flaking on me, I called her on it big time, she apologized and has been nothing but nice to me since. I don't see a problem here. Here's my personal view on NEXTing: only to be done to a woman who a) has nothing useful to offer, or b) continues to diss you after recieving fair warning. I doubt she would dare diss me again. But if she does I assure you, she's gone. There are several reasons I don't think I should NEXT her.
a) I'm using this situation to test a recovery technique I read about. If I NEXT her now, all the time and effort I've put in will have been wasted, as I won't know whether it works or not. Granted, the conditions were not ideal, and my execution was flawed. But even with that, so far it seems to be working. I want to finish what I started.
b) I admit I'd enjoy getting into her panties. I think the chances are slim, but if I don't try, the chances are zero. I have a semi-Gunwitch mentality. The last time I had sex with a 23-year-old, I was, umm.... 19. lol And we were both virgins. If it doesn't go that way, I'm fine with it. I can get all the sex I want from someone else right now, and I have other prospects. I'd enjoy having her as a friend. We have a lot of common interests, especially in the arts. She's a little screwy, but a very nice person. We're both music/dance nuts, I produce movies as a hobby and she writes plays.
c) This one just hit me. Even though she's not the greatest social proof (she's only average looking), she does have friends. And she just moved into a university dorm, with a central kitchen and lounge. I've never been to college or university. I have no idea what it's like being surrounded by HBs 24/7. She lives in a building where 50% of the residents are 20-25 year-old smart HBs. This is a gold-mine of opportunity.

 

[Royal-tiger]

ZeeOwl,

As regards calling this lady, only you know what feels right to you. There are many women who prefer men calling them in the early stage of courtship. As one chick puts it, "It makes me feel special."

In other words, she may not be making it a control issue. But then based on your gut feeling only you can evaluate her innocence.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Originally posted by Royal-tiger
ZeeOwl,

As regards calling this lady, only you know what feels right to you. There are many women who prefer men calling them in the early stage of courtship. As one chick puts it, "It makes me feel special."

In other words, she may not be making it a control issue. But then based on your gut feeling only you can evaluate her innocence.

Well, I don't think she's at all "innocent". Like I mentioned before, she's a little messed up emotionally, but this is one very smart young lady. She's starting a master's degree, so that just illustrates my point (though my evaluation of her intelligence is based on our conversations). I think she knew exactly what she was doing when she insisted on my calling her. Especially since on IM, you can think before you type. But I don't think it was for "control" at all. 1st, I don't think that fits her character profile, 2nd I'm sure she doesn't think she can afford trying controlling behavior, especially not with me. She know's she's no hottie. My impression is that it's more of a "it would really please me if you called, I don't get called by guys very often, and I would enjoy you being nice to me" I want you to call me. I think a bit of AFC behavior would not cause problems in this context, and might even help.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Age difference

dietzcoi, I'm curious.

What approach did you use when you started courting your current girlfriend? And what character type best describes her? Good-girl, freak, ho? Also, what social/educational strata does she fit into? In the sense, is she a waitress or corporate exec...