Outcome Independence

[Sho-No-Luv]

So in today's dating world, you're supposed to detach yourself from all human emotion?

This game SUCKS.

Or, you jump head first into every relationship wearing your heart on your sleeve and let EVERYONE walk all over you..

See, how both show no middle ground?

 

[RichardTheFrog]

Or, you jump head first into every relationship wearing your heart on your sleeve and let EVERYONE walk all over you..

See, how both show no middle ground?

I forget where I heard it, but I once heard "to prepare for a relationship is to prepare for war."

Might have been some red pill site.

 

[RichardTheFrog]

That's if you're putting your 100% into it. If you're just playing a game and not really being a real it's not so serious right?

I suppose.

 

[BeExcellent]

Women don't tell men to go to hell because they hate the man personally, they tell men go hell because they have no use for the man. The man has no value or worth for them.

Correct. However the problem arises when the man then turns around and wholesale assigns HIMSELF no worth as a result. I'm a white chick. Take a man who only likes Asian chicks or black chicks for example. If such a man has no interest in me, a white chick, because he has preferences that I do not meet (and cannot meet, such as black or Asian) then what sense is there for me to turn around a berate myself for not meeting his criteria?

There is absolutely no sense in that, but its what lots of people here (especially the less experienced guys) do all the time. Furthermore you can't ever know on what basis someone rejects you. Just understand its a rejection and move on.

Let's take age. I'm old enough to be yo momma in many cases, and sometimes people poke fun at me based on my age, calling me out of touch, post wall, an old bat or whatever. Well I don't see myself that way and the market doesn't see me that way but at the same time I have no control over my age either. So sometimes folks take potshots. So the criticism is what it is and I assign no value to it whatsoever.

Sometimes I start posts saying: "Advice from the old lady" to acknowledge and humor this right off the bat. It is what it is. So what. See how I do not let it define me?

If however we look at behavioral patterns rather than intrinsic characteristics, then there is something to be said for TRENDS you observe in the way people interact with you. TRENDS carry information. You don't take account of one woman who says go to hell. However if many women tell you to go to hell then in fact you are the only common denominator. So it does beg the question of "Why?" But rather than reinforce the negative programming and saying well women aren't worth the time of day...in that case there is a TREND in which you are the constant. THAT becomes information upon which a good look in the mirror might serve you well. Take TRENDS and look at what the trend is telling you. Use that to identify areas where you might do with self-improvement and see about how you might improve your outcomes.

Remaining neutral while doing this is not easy when you are getting started. I sometimes have to catch myself as I observe behavioral interactions I have with people. I sometimes have to hit the reset and come back to a place of centered objectivity. It is a hallmark of well calibrated people.

 

[BeExcellent]

You seem rather drunk @Soflobro

 

[Tenacity]

@BeExcellent this is a nice thread, but I think men should always be self-reflective as they go through life. In other words, if you approach a chick and she says get away from me you BROKE, FAT, UGLY, SMELLY piece of shyt.....the guy should really examine himself to see if:

A: He's broke
B: He's fat
C: He doesn't take care of his looks
D: His hygiene is off

Rejection will ALWAYS be a part of the game, nobody succeeds 100%, but you should pay attention to the feedback you are presented because many of these guys are rejected for dates/pvssy due to having significant financial, looks, and personality related problems.

Granted, you could be well off financially, look good, smell good, and have a 6 pack and a woman STILL tell you that you're broke, ugly, fat, and smell like shyt. But if you only received that response from that ONE woman out of like 15 other women you approached, then it could easily be concluded that the ONE woman was just being a dyck. But if 10 out of 15 women say the same shyt......the guy needs to check himself.

 

[RichardTheFrog]

@BeExcellent this is a nice thread, but I think men should always be self-reflective as they go through life. In other words, if you approach a chick and she says get away from me you BROKE, FAT, UGLY, SMELLY piece of shyt.....the guy should really examine himself to see if:

A: He's broke
B: He's fat
C: He doesn't take care of his looks
D: His hygiene is off

Rejection will ALWAYS be a part of the game, nobody succeeds 100%, but you should pay attention to the feedback you are presented because many of these guys are rejected for dates/pvssy due to having significant financial, looks, and personality related problems.

Granted, you could be well off financially, look good, smell good, and have a 6 pack and a woman STILL tell you that you're broke, ugly, fat, and smell like shyt. But if you only received that response from that ONE woman out of like 15 other women you approached, then it could easily be concluded that the ONE woman was just being a dyck. But if 10 out of 15 women say the same shyt......the guy needs to check himself.

Yes. And I don't know what my problem or problems are. I wish someone else could point them out for me.

 

[Dingo]

Interesting thread...

 

[Huffman]

Why not instead take the information in a neutral way (...)? It's not easy.

Simply because of emotional investment. If you're really interested in something (be it a woman, or even a stock you own), then you're not neutral about it anymore and it's very tough to make rational decisions. DJ Theory has approached this by preaching abundance, meaning to make yourself into such a man that, no matter how great the girl, she's not far above what you usually have. Consequently, you establish a level of "social value" for yourself, and you will never truly own your choices if you're tying to date above it. Always being an AFC looking at that pedestal, or a PUA desperately resorting to tricks.

That's one way to look at it, if slightly sad, because it also means your choices for real success are limited, and a lot of guys don't want to hear that.

And finally, being emotional is fun and like a drug. That's why guys are here, trying to get their addiction under control.

 

[Huffman]

By the way it's funny to see you raise the concept of Outcome Independence now, because I'm pretty sure I read some really old threads about it 10 years ago. It's interesting to see that people have independently come to the same conclusions for decades now.

Goes to show that all this really isn't magic, but common sense. Which is really hard to see if one is involved personally!

 

[BeExcellent]

Thanks @Tenacity and I agree with you. I think the challenge is that the only person who is with us 100% of the time is ourselves. Not everyone is willing to become personally responsible by looking in the mirror (if as you and I agree TRENDS in the market indicate the man is indeed the common denominator and there is some glaring deficiency) and taking honest stock of what's there.

It's easier to blame someone or something else if we don't want to work on ourselves personally.

I also agree with @Huffman about being utterly honest about how one sorts into the market itself. I think for example George Clooney is hot. But a man like Clooney wasn't going to take any notice of me. I'm not famous enough, beautiful enough or influential enough and I don't move in his social circles either (and obviously he's married at this point anyway), And that's OK. There are lots of great choices in the tier of men who I do appeal to. I'm not going to head out to Hollywood and try to date only A-list actors. That would be silly.

So I agree that one has to accurately take stock of one's self and realize if you are jobless, overweight and on the couch playing video games all day you are not going to pull super models or college cheerleaders. But you'll find somebody who will go out with you.

It gets said here all the time. Water seeks its own level. Top tier men will appeal to top tier women, and so forth. But that isn't really what I'm talking about with regard to outcome independence. If you are continually punching above your weight class you might eventually find success, but you'll have to endure much more rejection than if you are pulling at or below your own level. That should be apparent.

So do that if it suits you...but realize where you sort in the market and still do not take personally the rejection. You have to get beyond it and go forward with your self worth solidly intact.

What outcome independence simplifies to as @bigneil said is that you are happy with yourself if she comes along...but you are also happy with yourself without her. It's just that it's more complicated than that upon closer examination when you look at internal versus external validation of self.

 

[Von]

Outcome independance is also a advantage in business... entrepreneurship or sales

Being outcome independant gives you a confidence vibe... it kills desperation etc... so overall it improves your game radically in subtle ways.

Why the succesful people are always the one meeting the most people or having the most business... yet the one who care the less?
Why the succesful DJ are always getting more dates and dates yet seems to be not caring at all of the outcome etc...?


And that success attracts more success

It's a state of abundance..... and people seek that... its a self-fulfilling prophecy

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

It's like the trait the old Englishmen used to have... stiff upper lip and all that. No point crying into your beer. What's needed today is some good old character to sort this soft generation out. Send them all to boot camp I say.

All you do is put your best foot forward. Left, right, left.....

 

[martinman980]

Ohh my god, guys )) this is really funny .

The truth is there is no simple answer to this, but Outcome independence when we talk exclusively when you do an
approach can be obtained by simply knowing one simple truth. A women will always have more to gain by being with a
true man than she is in her current situation, women will always be a liability for us,
and they will always have much to gain from a relationship with a man than by being alone.

man = a charming, confident, independent ... male.

and since over 90% of males on this earth have no clue about seduction,how to get a girl...and are imature children, I guess we are a pretty rare species

But for when you are already dating a girl, and for some reason you brake up it's absolutely normal to feel bad about it, to feel sory or regretfull, you would not be a human being otherwise.

And also stop with the ego thing, Freud was high on cocaine when he coined that stuff, there is no such thing, there are only primal emotions and they for the most part are there to help us, if we let them
You are not putting anything on the line, it's the most natural thing to do, see a beautiful creature, and want to make her your, it's like when you see a nice car in a dealership , it's just that the steps to make that beautiful creature yours are different

 

[Georgepithyou]

So in today's dating world, you're supposed to detach yourself from all human emotion?

This game SUCKS.

It sucks but what options do we have, in a perfect world we could just treat women like normal juman beings.

 

[Spaz]

It sucks but what options do we have, in a perfect world we could just treat women like normal juman beings.

You seem like u r not satisfied...

Do you not know that there are 2 kinds of world, 1st is the feminine world (where many men seem to be under its spell) and, the 2nd one is a world of men and beasts (this is where men who don't allow women to bully them resides).

Since there are 2 kind of worlds or worldviews that constantly interacts with each other, you just need to adjust.

So when u r in the feminine/Disney world, act accordingly and, when you're in the world of men and beast act accordingly. Thing is, if you stay in the feminine/Disney world for too long, you end up confused as you are now.

 

[Lynx nkaf]

This is actually more what I'm driving at in this post but it struck me as more point B, and I thought really it would be best to start with point A. I think once you reach a place of not placing expectation (and subsequently deriving either elation or disappointment depending on the result) on an interaction, and once you rank your own self valuation above whatever others might say, you become extremely stable from an emotional perspective. Somebody can think you are amazing or someone can think you ain't squat and it won't matter really because your internal self worth is what matters and that is the valuation that you default to.

From that place something pretty neat happens. You can accept people into your life whose values line up with your own, and whose opinion of you lines up with your own, but you are then selecting from a place of awareness and congruence (internal validation or self-validation), not from a place of "OMG! She LIKES me! I must be likable!" (external validation) The issue I think some wrestle with from the outside looking in is that to the outside observer it is impossible to tell on the surface who comes from a place of internal versus external validation. And its important because for those that are learning in life it is much better to have internal validation modeled for you.

With regard to relationships, and love relationships in particular, the internal validation gives you the power of choice. I think at point A, as I tried to describe in the OP, emotional detachment is necessary because at that juncture a person is much too attached and emotionally dependent on the external stimuli. The external stimuli is affecting internal value asssignment, and therefore detachment is necessary and best. However, once one has progressed to a more well formed self-image and one has arrived at the ability to be strong in sense of self and internally validated, then the emotional detachment does a disservice.

An internally validated person chooses to love, chooses to invest, chooses to give time and emotional energy to a relationship out of a stability and generosity of spirit. It is an outpouring of abundance and an overflowing of internal self love. The giver gives without expectation and because of desire. The internally validated person chooses to make the emotional investment in someone else from a position of choice and strength and desire only, never from need. There is not withholding out of fear (although there is awareness that the emotional investment may or may not be fully reciprocated), and there is not numbness to emotion either. You open yourself willingly to rejection and to disappointment, but if rejection or disappointment occur, it cannot wreck who you are internally because you are already internally validated, and another individual's shortcomings and issues are not internalized to you.

I for one seek joy in relationship. In order to experience joy the ideal is for two people to love, respect, appreciate and support one another through life's journey. It doesn't mean everything is always unicorns and rainbows, but it is true partnership and companionship and fulfillment. Its what I would wish each of you to manifest in your own lives. For joy to manifest itself, I think (because I've not reached that point yet in relationship) it takes two emotionally mature internally validated people who are enjoying one another and giving freely to one another. I came closest to this with a lover that faded a few months ago after nearly two years. He faded not because of me or anything I did or didn't do, but because of other obligations and stresses in his own life, and because I realize it wasn't me at all, I am grateful for having been a place of light and joy for him while he traversed a tough road in his own life. I chose to love him without expectation and I found the experience to be lovely, although relatively short lived. That is to me what love and joy and abundance are really about. And people who are capable of this are hard to find. So I hope this thread casts some light on where it is good to aim because as we all progress along the path I trust that we also begin to recognize the same characteristics in others, and begin to see with new eyes.

I have never met or dated an internally validated man; they have all 'needed' me to some extent or another and have always felt sucked in to helping them, even when I'm no longer attracted to them.

Great thread for provoking thinking about past patterns of choosing.