Outcome Independence

[BeExcellent]

This is the biggest thing I see men struggle with here lately, and well generally to be frank here and in real life. I too used to get overwrought with whether or not a particular man "liked" me or didn't "like" me, used to hamster as y'all say about what a man might be thinking etc.

Over time I learned not to "hamster". I learned to observe actions and then respond appropriately. This has served me very well in life in general. I no longer create fantasies of expectation in my head nor concoct scripts I want followed (else become disappointed), and I no longer assign any assumptions from my past onto my future. Rather I observe and see what course is best based on information that emerges.

Now that doesn't mean I behave in a way that suspends reality. The whole notion of the red pill, as I understand it, is to accept reality as it actually is and deal with it.

At its core outcome independence is two things as I perceive it. First it is an acceptance of an outcome without a reaction tied to some expectation. For example, are you disappointed if you offer someone a glass of water and they decline? Probably not. You don't care what the answer is you were simply offering a glass of water. Second it is a release of expectation altogether. Do you have an expectation about whether or not the glass of water will be accepted or declined? Probably not. You don't care either way.

But are you disappointed if you ask a woman on a date and she declines? If you send her a text and she fails to respond? if she has sex with you and then flakes? Many of you are disappointed, because you take that to mean she has made a (-) value statement about you (which she has in all fairness probably), and you accept that value statement as a true (-) statement ABOUT YOU. You go incorporate this external value statement from someone else, translate it into "I'm not good enough" or some other equally self defeating narrative and stow it in your subconscious mind where it lurks, awaiting reinforcement.

Quit accepting someone else's value assignment! It's not good for you!

Why not instead take the information in a neutral way (she declined the date/did not respond/flaked after sex), and simply observe her behavior and make decisions/responses that factor another person's behavior without allowing your internal value to be affected? It's not easy. But it sure seems to simplify things and it quiets all the mental gymnastics.

 

[Konada]

Good post. I think we cannot remove it completely but we can most certaintly mitigate it to a great extent. I think a great extent of outcome independence is closely tied to the internalization that you are not responsible for whether someone accepts or declines your offer.

When it comes to dating, I just do what I think is necessary for a man to be doing and let the chips fall where they may.

Imo all guys should just focus on executing their masculine in the dynamic and see how it goes. Simple and yet saves you the headspace of 'should I ghost her or not'

 

[RichardTheFrog]

So in today's dating world, you're supposed to detach yourself from all human emotion?

This game SUCKS.

 

[17 shots]

So in today's dating world, you're supposed to detach yourself from all human emotion?

This game SUCKS.

You could do it the other way... but you'll end up like rob Kardashian

 

[RichardTheFrog]

You could do it the other way... but you'll end up like rob Kardashian

I'm not familiar with the story.

I don't keep up with Hollywood trash.

 

[17 shots]

I'm not familiar with the story.

I don't keep up with Hollywood trash.

He spent 2 million dollars on his *** dumpster baby momma who had the next man laying in his bed, wearing his robe, while his kid was in the house. Then he cried about it all on Instagram

 

[The Duke]

This is good advice for guys with limited experience. It helps with abundance thinking, controlling emotions, caring too much, not putting all your eggs in one basket, etc. and realizing women are nothing special. Its mission critical that a guy learns not to take some flakey/mentally ill actions personal.

However, there is a flipside to becoming in-dependent to the outcome which I deal with personally with the majority of women I date. I don't care as much as I should, I don't bond as deeply as I should. Nothing phases me. I don't care if they like what I have to say or not. I realize all things will come to an end and relations with today's women tend to be short lived. You just enjoy it while it lasts. Relationships with women are the shortest lasting things in my life. I prefer it to not be that way, but most of it is out of my control.

I guess I could go one step further down the road of not being outcome dependent and just tolerate bad behavior like it never happened. It takes a strong person to be calm in the eye of the storm and not take it personal. This is my big problem, most of them don't live up to my standards for emotional control and I'm not going to be outcome independent when it comes to this. I will simply say my 2cents and walk off.

When you get as many miles on your cahk as some of the veterans on here have, its very easy to pack up and move onto the next quickly because they don't care about losing 99% of them. You know there will be another around the corner. Its like Richard the Frog points out, you are detaching yourself from human emotion to some degree and its makes you a little desensitized.

Come, Stay, Lay, or Pray! That's the attitude. You care too much with women and you get your azz handed to you. How fuhked up is that??? Think about it for a while. Its a shame they are such dysfunctional creatures.

 

[Pandora]

this is a good post for beginners. Its rare that you even get a fair shake in the game(baggage, mental illness, setting you up to fail via mental typecasting, ulterior motives), and like you said even if you do its dumb to let someone else's subjective opinion define you, especially someone with relationship ADHD and lots of options.

I can think of a few obvious examples:

1. Girl never really liked you and was just using you for attention from the outset, even if she had to feign sexual interest to get it: not a true rejection bc you never had a real chance with her as she categorized you for a mostly asexual role. Or, she had you in beta bucks mode the whole time and nothing you can do to break free. Castration basically, every time you try to be overtly sexual or demonstrate some style/class/whatever you get mocked and undermined, and they wont even give you enough of a sexual opportunity to really build chemistry. One example, I wanted to go dancing with a girl and she refused, then when she was done with me criticized me for not dancing. Basically, she had typecast me as an uncool guy that cant dance...lol.

2. In between meeting the girl and your first date, the girl starts dating someone completely different from their past or even a new guy: not a true rejection, you never had a real chance, just bad timing. I once dated a girl that I couldnt see for a month for our first date because I was too busy. In that time she met someone else and went on a date with him, by the time I got to her she acted exactly like girls with boyfriends act and completely undermined my masculine energy the entire time, and soon after that guy became her BF. One time something similar happened on a second date, her girl friend showed up with two guys and my date would rather pair off with her friend than bother investing in me(she did try later though).

3. Mental illness: not capable of giving anyone a fair shake, usually undermine and sabotage their own interest in you as well as your ability to seduce. Relationship ADHD with unlimited options on social media qualifies in my opinion. I once broke out of the friendzone with a girl but I was the 5th guy to do so that month, lol. Suffice it to say, got a month or two of legit interest and then it burned out.

4. Baggage, girl is not emotionally ready to date: not a true rejection because she is hung up on past guys. I once dated a girl who had been into me for YEARS that suddenly went cold out of nowhere when she was scheduled to go to a formal event with me, turns out her ex was back in the picture as I soon saw on facebook. He was higher HST than me, high as I was.


The next level of outcome independence relates to the market itself. For us vets, any one rejection in and of itself means nothing, we understand how the game works and how the cards are stacked. It is the cumulative effect of many incidences of bad behavior and rejection that lead to existential crisis. How can you be outcome independent re: unable to reproduce or have a stable relationship overall?

This is gold bro. Exactly my thoughts. New guys should read this. Much of the game is out of your hands. You just have to improve yourself to the best of your ability and let the chips fall. Dating is like sales. You may have a good product but most people still won't buy for various reasons.

 

[wifehunter]

Rolling with the punches vs idealization...

One is reality, the other is pie in the sky.

Outcome independence = not caring if you get laid/an LTR , or not.

It boils down to freedom...freedom is more attactive.

 

[fastlife]

Good post. Also ties back to having a strong internal sense of self-worth & Abundance. I won't lie and say that I don't get a slight high when a girl likes me & things click; I also won't lie and say that I don't get a sting of self doubt when I get a bunch of rejection in a row or, even worse, I have a girl with super high initial interest go cold on me. Barring complete apathy, I don't think that ever goes away completely.

BUT I know that I have value; I know that there are people out there who recognize and appreciate that value. And I know that I have an unlimited (at least in a practical sense) amount of future opportunities with an unlimited amount of women and an unlimited amount of time (at least insofar as I'll experience it) with which to explore those opportunities--so I can break as many eggs as I want in the present without compromising what cool people I'll meet in the future.

 

[BeExcellent]

The next level of outcome independence relates to the market itself. For us vets, any one rejection in and of itself means nothing, we understand how the game works and how the cards are stacked. It is the cumulative effect of many incidences of bad behavior and rejection that lead to existential crisis. How can you be outcome independent re: unable to reproduce or have a stable relationship overall?

I guess I could go one step further down the road of not being outcome dependent and just tolerate bad behavior like it never happened. It takes a strong person to be calm in the eye of the storm and not take it personal. This is my big problem, most of them don't live up to my standards for emotional control and I'm not going to be outcome independent when it comes to this. I will simply say my 2cents and walk off.

When you get as many miles on your cahk as some of the veterans on here have, its very easy to pack up and move onto the next quickly because they don't care about losing 99% of them. You know there will be another around the corner. Its like Richard the Frog points out, you are detaching yourself from human emotion to some degree and its makes you a little desensitized.

This is actually more what I'm driving at in this post but it struck me as more point B, and I thought really it would be best to start with point A. I think once you reach a place of not placing expectation (and subsequently deriving either elation or disappointment depending on the result) on an interaction, and once you rank your own self valuation above whatever others might say, you become extremely stable from an emotional perspective. Somebody can think you are amazing or someone can think you ain't squat and it won't matter really because your internal self worth is what matters and that is the valuation that you default to.

From that place something pretty neat happens. You can accept people into your life whose values line up with your own, and whose opinion of you lines up with your own, but you are then selecting from a place of awareness and congruence (internal validation or self-validation), not from a place of "OMG! She LIKES me! I must be likable!" (external validation) The issue I think some wrestle with from the outside looking in is that to the outside observer it is impossible to tell on the surface who comes from a place of internal versus external validation. And its important because for those that are learning in life it is much better to have internal validation modeled for you.

With regard to relationships, and love relationships in particular, the internal validation gives you the power of choice. I think at point A, as I tried to describe in the OP, emotional detachment is necessary because at that juncture a person is much too attached and emotionally dependent on the external stimuli. The external stimuli is affecting internal value asssignment, and therefore detachment is necessary and best. However, once one has progressed to a more well formed self-image and one has arrived at the ability to be strong in sense of self and internally validated, then the emotional detachment does a disservice.

An internally validated person chooses to love, chooses to invest, chooses to give time and emotional energy to a relationship out of a stability and generosity of spirit. It is an outpouring of abundance and an overflowing of internal self love. The giver gives without expectation and because of desire. The internally validated person chooses to make the emotional investment in someone else from a position of choice and strength and desire only, never from need. There is not withholding out of fear (although there is awareness that the emotional investment may or may not be fully reciprocated), and there is not numbness to emotion either. You open yourself willingly to rejection and to disappointment, but if rejection or disappointment occur, it cannot wreck who you are internally because you are already internally validated, and another individual's shortcomings and issues are not internalized to you.

I for one seek joy in relationship. In order to experience joy the ideal is for two people to love, respect, appreciate and support one another through life's journey. It doesn't mean everything is always unicorns and rainbows, but it is true partnership and companionship and fulfillment. Its what I would wish each of you to manifest in your own lives. For joy to manifest itself, I think (because I've not reached that point yet in relationship) it takes two emotionally mature internally validated people who are enjoying one another and giving freely to one another. I came closest to this with a lover that faded a few months ago after nearly two years. He faded not because of me or anything I did or didn't do, but because of other obligations and stresses in his own life, and because I realize it wasn't me at all, I am grateful for having been a place of light and joy for him while he traversed a tough road in his own life. I chose to love him without expectation and I found the experience to be lovely, although relatively short lived. That is to me what love and joy and abundance are really about. And people who are capable of this are hard to find. So I hope this thread casts some light on where it is good to aim because as we all progress along the path I trust that we also begin to recognize the same characteristics in others, and begin to see with new eyes.

 

[RichardTheFrog]

This is actually more what I'm driving at in this post but it struck me as more point B, and I thought really it would be best to start with point A. I think once you reach a place of not placing expectation (and subsequently deriving either elation or disappointment depending on the result) on an interaction, and once you rank your own self valuation above whatever others might say, you become extremely stable from an emotional perspective. Somebody can think you are amazing or someone can think you ain't squat and it won't matter really because your internal self worth is what matters and that is the valuation that you default to.

From that place something pretty neat happens. You can accept people into your life whose values line up with your own, and whose opinion of you lines up with your own, but you are then selecting from a place of awareness and congruence (internal validation or self-validation), not from a place of "OMG! She LIKES me! I must be likable!" (external validation) The issue I think some wrestle with from the outside looking in is that to the outside observer it is impossible to tell on the surface who comes from a place of internal versus external validation. And its important because for those that are learning in life it is much better to have internal validation modeled for you.

With regard to relationships, and love relationships in particular, the internal validation gives you the power of choice. I think at point A, as I tried to describe in the OP, emotional detachment is necessary because at that juncture a person is much too attached and emotionally dependent on the external stimuli. The external stimuli is affecting internal value asssignment, and therefore detachment is necessary and best. However, once one has progressed to a more well formed self-image and one has arrived at the ability to be strong in sense of self and internally validated, then the emotional detachment does a disservice.

An internally validated person chooses to love, chooses to invest, chooses to give time and emotional energy to a relationship out of a stability and generosity of spirit. It is an outpouring of abundance and an overflowing of internal self love. The giver gives without expectation and because of desire. The internally validated person chooses to make the emotional investment in someone else from a position of choice and strength and desire only, never from need. There is not withholding out of fear (although there is awareness that the emotional investment may or may not be fully reciprocated), and there is not numbness to emotion either. You open yourself willingly to rejection and to disappointment, but if rejection or disappointment occur, it cannot wreck who you are internally because you are already internally validated, and another individual's shortcomings and issues are not internalized to you.

I for one seek joy in relationship. In order to experience joy the ideal is for two people to love, respect, appreciate and support one another through life's journey. It doesn't mean everything is always unicorns and rainbows, but it is true partnership and companionship and fulfillment. Its what I would wish each of you to manifest in your own lives. For joy to manifest itself, I think (because I've not reached that point yet in relationship) it takes two emotionally mature internally validated people who are enjoying one another and giving freely to one another. I came closest to this with a lover that faded a few months ago after nearly two years. He faded not because of me or anything I did or didn't do, but because of other obligations and stresses in his own life, and because I realize it wasn't me at all, I am grateful for having been a place of light and joy for him while he traversed a tough road in his own life. I chose to love him without expectation and I found the experience to be lovely, although relatively short lived. That is to me what love and joy and abundance are really about. And people who are capable of this are hard to find. So I hope this thread casts some light on where it is good to aim because as we all progress along the path I trust that we also begin to recognize the same characteristics in others, and begin to see with new eyes.

Okay but if the opposite sex continuously doesn't like you, isn't "accepting yourself" just going into denial?

If NOBODY LIKES YOU, then doesn't that mean you are inferior in some way?

 

[RichardTheFrog]

Oh look. A fvcking woman writing a book about how to handle something she's never ever had to deal with. It's literally impossible for you to empathize with us because your ENTIRE life you've had men coming to you. You come on here to get attention while you inappropriately touch yourself you flithy mental pervert.

Your advice helps no one unless you've spent time being an actual man. You're literally regurgitating and expanding on material and previous advices/ opinions you've read on here. So fvck off to the money Mommy and Daddy left you.

You're not helping

True.

But she does have a point. I think a girl would like if you truly didn't care what she thought. Like she was insignificant and even her sex was worth nothing.

Females have no idea how useless they are because modern society has convinced them otherwise.

 

[BeExcellent]

Look at what you are saying, Richard. This thread actually came out of an exchange you & I had on another thread, although this is something I've been turning over in my mind for a while.

When I was a teen I was socially awkward. I didn't know I was pretty, nobody ever sat me down and explained how men and women interact. I was not popular, I was not cool. I had few friends. I felt left out and left behind in high school, so I just played sports and made good grades and enjoyed my small friend group.

When I got to college suddenly I got all this attention because I was very pretty. But that attention was really incongruent with my internal settings of being left out and left behind from growing up. Fact was I had always been pretty, but I had never gotten attention for beauty within my family (that was not the emphasis at home, grades and achievement were). It took me a long time to trust that interest in me based on my looks was genuine. That wasn't what I had internalized so I had to go through this process of reprogramming how I saw myself, which in turn changed the way I interacted with others.

The thread is here for the benefit of the forum, just like many other threads. Feel free to ignore it, or to ignore me. Its something I see lots of people wrestle with, as I stated at the outset. I actually start very few threads here and only do so when I think it might contribute some value to someone else. If someone thinks that is attention seeking, and wants to insult what I have accomplished in my own life so be it.

 

[RichardTheFrog]

View attachment 835 rate my pupperino though. 16 weeks. She bites me a lot but i play to roughly with her.

Bet it gets you lots of Tinder matches.

 

[TheProspect]

Oh look. A fvcking woman writing a book about how to handle something she's never ever had to deal with. It's literally impossible for you to empathize with us because your ENTIRE life you've had men coming to you. You come on here to get attention while you inappropriately touch yourself you flithy mental pervert.

Your advice helps no one unless you've spent time being an actual man. You're literally regurgitating and expanding on material and previous advices/ opinions you've read on here. So fvck off to the money Mommy and Daddy left you.

You're not helping

"Hurr durr my rich parents and family name have helped me stay rich so i can literally waste my time being a nosey cvnt. I literally never had to work for money, and certainly not had to work to get sex from the opposite sex. Also because I come from a rich family my standards are probably ridiculousy high" fvck off you old hoe.

BeExcellent is one of the most insightful posters on this forum, in my opinion. She offers a unique insight and perspective that others can't. She doesn't need a penis in order to gain credibility and offer value... then again, I personally don't defaultly dismiss someone because they were born the opposite sex.

Gender is irrelevant. Get over your women-hate and open your mind. Critique the message (if anything), not the messenger. You don't help other men improve themselves by attempting to build a collective resentment against women just because women happen to be women.

 

[RichardTheFrog]

Look at what you are saying, Richard. This thread actually came out of an exchange you & I had on another thread, although this is something I've been turning over in my mind for a while.

When I was a teen I was socially awkward. I didn't know I was pretty, nobody ever sat me down and explained how men and women interact. I was not popular, I was not cool. I had few friends. I felt left out and left behind in high school, so I just played sports and made good grades and enjoyed my small friend group.

When I got to college suddenly I got all this attention because I was very pretty. But that attention was really incongruent with my internal settings of being left out and left behind from growing up. Fact was I had always been pretty, but I had never gotten attention for beauty within my family (that was not the emphasis at home, grades and achievement were). It took me a long time to trust that interest in me based on my looks was genuine. That wasn't what I had internalized so I had to go through this process of reprogramming how I saw myself, which in turn changed the way I interacted with others.

The thread is here for the benefit of the forum, just like many other threads. Feel free to ignore it, or to ignore me. Its something I see lots of people wrestle with, as I stated at the outset. I actually start very few threads here and only do so when I think it might contribute some value to someone else. If someone thinks that is attention seeking, and wants to insult what I have accomplished in my own life so be it.

I get what you're saying. You're saying I need to realize I have worth whether females see it or not.

But it would help if I also had a value that they saw. I've been through too much in life to be coming up empty and I'm getting tired of even trying.

 

[zekko]

Over time I learned not to "hamster". I learned to observe actions and then respond appropriately.

I've read a lot of posts here saying basically that women are unable to learn and modify their behavior, that they are basically children, and can only respond to emotion. I've always suspected that they can learn, however

Shes a fvcking woman

Bet that attitude gets you a lot of dates, lol.

 

[bigneil]

Can't this be simplified to "You're happy if you have her, you're happy if you don't have her"?

 

[Trump]

[/quote]

Why not instead take the information in a neutral way (she declined the date/did not respond/flaked after sex), and simply observe her behavior and make decisions/responses that factor another person's behavior without allowing your internal value to be affected? It's not easy. But it sure seems to simplify things and it quiets all the mental gymnastics.[/QUOTE]

Just to be clear, I think you are saying if you ask a girl out that you are attracted to and in love with, and she tells you to go to hell, you should observe her behaviour and keep moving along and don't let her words affect you.

Not sure what "observe her behaviour" means. If a girl tells you to go to hell you can't really observe her behaviour. For the rest of the post, if that's what you are saying, it's good in theory but it's not reality.

Women don't tell men to go to hell because they hate the man personally, they tell men go hell because they have no use for the man. The man has no value or worth for them. You can't no education, no job, no place, no car, ask a movie star out, she tells you to go hell and just move on.

By telling you to go to hell, she is telling you something. In essence, she is doing the man a favour. "Work on yourself, THEN ask me out."