Old Age advice vs New Age advice

[CharmingPsychopath]

what’s his take?

I remember saw him on a different forum and I was not really that impressed about what he was preaching, but again maybe I was missing a lot of his insights because of how he was presenting them

Initially I also wasn't impressed with Gunwitch. But later, after years of experience - mostly hanging out with naturals - I realised Gunwitch was right about everything.

As for what he was teaching, it's not a great idea to "compress" material into a short post.... And I don't want anybody to misunderstand anything, but...

HOW I UNDERSTAND GUNWITCH METHOD:

1. Gunwitch wrote about "Sexual State" - that if a guy is in a "Sexual State", women can sense it and they instinctively also enter "Sexual State", subconsciouly treat him as a sexual partner.

Some people might call it "vibe", "state projection", "emotional contagion"... Even Ross Jeffries formulated a "You Go First" rule - meaning that if a seducer wants to create a certain state in a woman, he should first create that state in himself.

So the idea isn't that unique, but what set Gunwitch apart was that while most other seduction guru preached concentrating on social, "value" aspects, on trying to appear like some kind of cool, succesful guy... Gunwitch advocated being the sexual guy... NOT in terms of physical actions like touching heavy heavily, but in terms of state which should affect her state. The way I understood it is that if a guy seems like somebody who is ALREADY ****ing the woman, then the woman subconsciously starts to feel like being ****ed by him is the normal course of action - despite the conccious mind not even knowing the guy.

2. Gunwitch proposed verbal game aimed not at gaining attraction, but at making it feel natural and comfortable. Kind of let's say "easy entry" verbal game.

Other schools promoted either:

- Different types of provoking, "be unsual" verbal game, usually also including some kind of lowering the girl's value.
- Some kind of verbal direct, "proposal/offfer" game.

Gunwitch proposed natural sounding verbal game, like we already knew the woman ("assumption of rapport").

So Gunwitch Method as I understand it means that the vibe should feel sexual, but the actual words should be socially callibrated and tame - kind of like a boyfriend would be talking with his girl he's already ****ing. A boyfriend doesn't do crazy stuff to entertain his girlfriend - he talks with her normally (when in public space). And the point was to make the woman feel like she's the guy's lover/girlfriend, without causing friction.

In a way it's a "sneaky sexuality" method. (But it should not feel sneaky - it should just feel sexual, manly and also it should feel like the sexuality is completely natural and already established.) The sexual vibe is created non-verbally by state and subconscious body language - not by verbal techniques or heavy touching.

It's about being a guy with the sexual vibe, but acting in a manner which doesn't create unncessary friction and resistance. And making it seem like the sexuality is natural, already established and "it's just the way things are".

THE ABOVE IS MY VIEW ON THE GUNWITCH METHOD. AND IT'S "COMPRESSED", SIMPLIFIED OF COURSE.

Initially I wasn't impressed with Gunwitch Method - I thought it's not as "advanced" as other methods...

Then I got disilusioned regarding other methods - I've noticed they're actually harming my results the more I try to make them work.

I also met some naturals - and seeing that they get results better than any PUAs I knew, I started to hanging out with them.

And after many years of experience and hanging out with naturals, I came to conclusions which match Gunwitch Method very closely. I came to them independently from Gunwitch, but then realised my conclusions are exactly what Gunwitch was writing about years ago.

 

[CharmingPsychopath]

I'm currently doing the DJ Bootcamp from 2005, definitely old-age advice. I'm a complete beginner and couldn't agree more.

This guide consists of compiled posts of different people.

I have followed each religiously, and it became clear to me that not all "master" DJs are equal. Some "master" DJs are mere theorists.

I don't know Sosuave people, but it's very likely your impression is correct.

A lot of people in PUA are liars, theorists. And not just the seduction coaches - who have an obvious financial interest in lying/posing as supposed "seduction experts". Many guys are doing the same without getting any money from it - they do it...I don't know, perhaps to feel competent, respected for a moment?

I know a case when a guy wrote over a 1000 posts (maybe even few thousands - I don't remember), he was giving advice to other people and then it turned out he's a virgin.

Or another, less dramatic case - guy wrote thousands of posts, was giving advice, while having less than 10 lays.

There was always a lot of such guys in the PUA community.

BTW One PUA, Aaron Sleazy, wrote a free ebook about how PUA community is largely a scam - "Debunking the Seduction Community".

He writes there: "Even many of the big names are a lot worse than you may think. This equally applies to people who have acquired a reputation on public forum"

I've seen it myself - some "big name" seduction coaches are mediocre or even suck with women. And many people who wrote a lot of posts on forums also were mediocre or sucked.

Maybe it's because I'm from Germany and people are more reserved, or maybe times changed, but my hunch is this stuff never worked particularly well.

Times have changed, Germany probably isn't the perfect country for this... But then again, these methods never worked too well anywhere.

One brutal example: there is a seduction coach living in the USA - Todd Valentine, ex-RSD coach. Supposedly he's an expert seducer, he has attractive women on his infield videos... While the reality is that somewhere around the middle 2010's, he was in a relationship with an ugly 4/10 woman and I think he even has a child with her. Guy spent years learning seduction...to get into a relationship with a 4/10 ugly woman. ‍

That's great example of the problem with PUA - lots of guys all around the world were trying to learn how to **** hot women from a guy who himself was ina relationship with a 4/10.

BTW The truth about him spread already around 2015, 2016 or something - with a photo of them together as proof. And what? Nothing. Uninformed guys don't know about the situation, they believe him and pay him to teach them. And that the norm in PUA - some people know a certain seduction coach is a scammer, but other guys don't know about this, so they become his clients, pay him, and his business continues despite the fact there are many people who know he's a scammer.

Unless you're very handsome, but then, why even bother with this?

Some attractive guys do enter PUA community - because they're shy, socially inexperienced, because they have low self esteem and don't realise or don't accept that they're attractive.

And actually...PUA works the best for attractive guys. Because it teaches them approaching - and this makes them reach many women with with their attractiveness.

It's actually cause of problems - because a 6-7 guy who get's brainwashed by PUA propaganda will believe his good results are happening because "game works!" - not realising that he's simply handsome. Then ugly or average guys listen to him and think they will get the same results as him doing what he's doing - of course they won't. Many attractive guys become seduction coaches and mislead other, less attractive men.

I'm naturally attractive/very attractive and yet I've entered PUA community. There were two reasons for why it has happened:

1. I was extremely shy, socially anxious, had very low self esteem due to bad, abusive childhood.

2. While many women find me very attractive, I don't see it in me - when looking at the mirrior, I get the impression that I'm only slightly better looking than most men and I rate myself a 6/10. (And other men also don't anything very attractive in me.)

But the reactions of women show something very different - and of course they're the "customers" here, not me. So to judge my attractiveness realistically, I need to actually disbelieve my own eyes.

When I was in highschool, I was overweight, I was very shy and dressed like a nerd... But somehow the hottest girl in school got a crush on me. Which means that she found me to be the most attractive guy not just in the entire school, but also in her friend circle, among boys in her neighbourhood.... That doesn't match 6/10. And several other girls also showed strong interest in me despite me being a overweight, shy nerd. (BTW That was before any PUA stuff, including before any Gunwitch Method).

Many 8+ women, including many 10/10 models "salivated" at the first sight of me. But I still see a 6/10 in the mirror.

My girlfriend is a 10/10 model, and she says I'm 7/10 physically, but 10/10 in terms of "being sexy". Which generally matches the divide between how I look physically and between the crazy reactions I get from many women, including many very hot women who should be theoretically out of my league.

I have psychopatic traits (hence my user name) - and scientific studies say men with Dark Triad traits are more attractive to women than normal men. In PUA circles people have often said women are attracted to "badboys" or "jerks".

My best friend says I attract women who like psychos. Perhaps I'm 6-7/10 physically and that's my attractiveness for women who are NOT attracted to "psychos", but when a woman IS attracted to "psychos", my attractiveness gets a boost and raises from 6-7/10 to even 10/10 like my girlfriend perceives it.

Another good friend of mine says I have "serial killer vibe". Ok, so I got "serial killer vibe" and many 8+ women, many 10/10 get crazy horny, "salivate" at first sight of me? That actually makes sense - many women love "dangerous" men.

BTW PUA coach Franco wrote an article about how psychopathy is very attractive to women.

Franco wrote:

"A famous researcher of psychopathy, Meloy, did an experiment. The experiment was on the fear induced by psychopaths.

He studied the physical reactions of the staff, when interviewing psychopaths.

Those were several physical sensations connected with fear. Uneasy stomach sensations, muscle trembling, sense of weakness, breathing problems, faster heart beating.

He interpreted that as an innate reaction to dealing with a predator. The staff could “feel” the predator, on a physical level.

A woman’s silly brain feels fear. She interprets: “He is a winner. He eliminates anyone.” She does not get into account that it means: including her, if needed."


Anyway - I have entered PUA community, despite being naturally attractive/very attractive.... That does happen.

And in some ways I have benefited A LOT from the PUA community - I learned approaching, fixed my shyness, etc.

But in terms of techniques.... The PUA techniques from schools like Mystery Method or David DeAngelo's C&F actually were WORSENING my results. They were somehow ruining my naturally attractive vibe/appeal.

Somebody might say "oh you're a naturally attractive guy, you didn't need the techniques" - well, is some 5/10 or even worse 4/10 going to have great success with them if I can't?

I've seen that most of "success stories" in PUA are 6-7/10 guys - hot enough to be attractive, not hot enough to see clearly that they're attractive.

I've seen some 5/10 guys who got 6-7/10 women from time to time - maybe 1 per month, maybe one for 50 or 100 approaches, but still they got much better sex life than they'd get without PUA. I think these are the cases when PUA is working the closest to what is advertised - because these guys are indeed benefiting from being PUAs, without having good looks.

But I've also seen a lot of 5/10 guys and especially 4/10 guys who FAIL HARD. It's like they get laid with a 5/10 drunk girl once per few hundreds of approaches.... I even know cases when some guys did a 1000 approaches and did not get laid even once. ?

Also, some people got mentally damaged by PUA and I suspect they will NEVER become normal again. Like my former wing, who was a normal guy once.... He was short and 4/10 ugly, so he got poor results.... He tried harder and harder, as the PUA community told him to do.... In the end, he didn't succeed - but he managed to brainwash himself so badly, that he literally lost contact with reality. He now believes he is some kind of high value, alpha guy - while in reality women find him weird and creepy and want to get rid of him as fast as possible. He was a normal guy, but now he's delusional. "Great job", PUA community!

 

[CharmingPsychopath]

I still reckon Mystery had all the useful ideas,

I think some of his ideas are good, but others I find dubious.

And I've seen PUAs fail a lot with NEGs especially.

Erik was quite good at pickup and seduction and pulled sexy chicks (in his heyday).

A friend of mine has met him and seen him in action. He says Mystery is "competent", but also "horribly overrated".

He said Mystery is a competent seducer, but not the great master many people think him to be. He praised Mystery's opening and group game, but said Mystery wasn't so great when it came to actually seducing the girl in terms of making her sexually attracted - he had a problem with being stuck in entertainer frame.

Mystery was an egomaniac / rock star celeb wannabe he wasn’t in it to scam imo.

I don't know - he rated his girlfriend Katya as a supposedly super hot "9.5" in "The Game"... But nobody seems to agree with that rating, nobody seems to agree she's super hot. Many people say she's only a 6-7.

Was he lying deliberately, in order to promote himself as a seducer of hottest women? Or is he genuinely delusional and really thinks Katya is a 9.5?

Is he is delusional and really thought that Katya is a "9.5", then didn't Style or somebody else tell him "9.5" is far from an objective rating? Why did Style print that obvious nonsense? In my opinion - both Style and Mystery knew exactly what they're doing and they did it deliberately - I think they've deliberately inflated the image of Mystery as a "supremer master seducer of hottest women", in order to make money.

I studied all the rest later, but a lot of that just tied my head in a knot , like the RSD stuff. As it was designed to do that.. and keep dudes spinning in circles and buying more products.that was a mix of self help, NLP, hypnosis and other crapola.
All the RSD guys were trained hypnotists I realised later ,(after getting into that for a while) and there’s tons of it in their products. They were hypnotising the viewer.

Certainly RSD was horribly toxic, much worse than Mystery.

Julien did seem to be the most successful of that bunch afaics. He was a bit different tho how he did it.

I've met him... He was mediocre - not a retard like Tyler, but still only mediocre. Some local guys expected a lot from him.... Got dissapointed in a "meh, he's a normal PUA" fashion.

And look at his wife... Mister "my game is a ten" somehow got married with a woman who obviously isn't a ten or even close.

BTW - I can't send private messages on this forum - I think it's because I have too few posts.... Did you check your email?

 

[Bigpapa]

Initially I also wasn't impressed with Gunwitch. But later, after years of experience - mostly hanging out with naturals - I realised Gunwitch was right about everything.

As for what he was teaching, it's not a great idea to "compress" material into a short post.... And I don't want anybody to misunderstand anything, but...

HOW I UNDERSTAND GUNWITCH METHOD:

1. Gunwitch wrote about "Sexual State" - that if a guy is in a "Sexual State", women can sense it and they instinctively also enter "Sexual State", subconsciouly treat him as a sexual partner.

Some people might call it "vibe", "state projection", "emotional contagion"... Even Ross Jeffries formulated a "You Go First" rule - meaning that if a seducer wants to create a certain state in a woman, he should first create that state in himself.

So the idea isn't that unique, but what set Gunwitch apart was that while most other seduction guru preached concentrating on social, "value" aspects, on trying to appear like some kind of cool, succesful guy... Gunwitch advocated being the sexual guy... NOT in terms of physical actions like touching heavy heavily, but in terms of state which should affect her state. The way I understood it is that if a guy seems like somebody who is ALREADY ****ing the woman, then the woman subconsciously starts to feel like being ****ed by him is the normal course of action - despite the conccious mind not even knowing the guy.

2. Gunwitch proposed verbal game aimed not at gaining attraction, but at making it feel natural and comfortable. Kind of let's say "easy entry" verbal game.

Other schools promoted either:

- Different types of provoking, "be unsual" verbal game, usually also including some kind of lowering the girl's value.
- Some kind of verbal direct, "proposal/offfer" game.

Gunwitch proposed natural sounding verbal game, like we already knew the woman ("assumption of rapport").

So Gunwitch Method as I understand it means that the vibe should feel sexual, but the actual words should be socially callibrated and tame - kind of like a boyfriend would be talking with his girl he's already ****ing. A boyfriend doesn't do crazy stuff to entertain his girlfriend - he talks with her normally (when in public space). And the point was to make the woman feel like she's the guy's lover/girlfriend, without causing friction.

In a way it's a "sneaky sexuality" method. (But it should not feel sneaky - it should just feel sexual, manly and also it should feel like the sexuality is completely natural and already established.) The sexual vibe is created non-verbally by state and subconscious body language - not by verbal techniques or heavy touching.

It's about being a guy with the sexual vibe, but acting in a manner which doesn't create unncessary friction and resistance. And making it seem like the sexuality is natural, already established and "it's just the way things are".

THE ABOVE IS MY VIEW ON THE GUNWITCH METHOD. AND IT'S "COMPRESSED", SIMPLIFIED OF COURSE.

Initially I wasn't impressed with Gunwitch Method - I thought it's not as "advanced" as other methods...

Then I got disilusioned regarding other methods - I've noticed they're actually harming my results the more I try to make them work.

I also met some naturals - and seeing that they get results better than any PUAs I knew, I started to hanging out with them.

And after many years of experience and hanging out with naturals, I came to conclusions which match Gunwitch Method very closely. I came to them independently from Gunwitch, but then realised my conclusions are exactly what Gunwitch was writing about years ago.

I get it now, and I agree that it is a good method ( at least when compared to the vast majority of methods sold by guts ) . Very similar to what I am doing, and kinda ended up to this method somehow naturally like you

but like any methods, it can work or not. It is not a silver bullet

It can even be the case that you escalated properly and see that there is attraction and chemistry but then you never see her again after

Though, I kinda suspect that when this happens is not necessarily about you but more with the women having mental health issues, like for example being avoidant and kinda feeling that attraction = danger

I also feel that in the last couple of years there is a spike in mental health issues ( both for men and women )

what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Arete]

I don't know Sosuave people, but it's very likely your impression is correct.

A lot of people in PUA are liars, theorists. And not just the seduction coaches - who have an obvious financial interest in lying/posing as supposed "seduction experts". Many guys are doing the same without getting any money from it - they do it...I don't know, perhaps to feel competent, respected for a moment?

I know a case when a guy wrote over a 1000 posts (maybe even few thousands - I don't remember), he was giving advice to other people and then it turned out he's a virgin.

Or another, less dramatic case - guy wrote thousands of posts, was giving advice, while having less than 10 lays.

There was always a lot of such guys in the PUA community.

BTW One PUA, Aaron Sleazy, wrote a free ebook about how PUA community is largely a scam - "Debunking the Seduction Community".

He writes there: "Even many of the big names are a lot worse than you may think. This equally applies to people who have acquired a reputation on public forum"

I've seen it myself - some "big name" seduction coaches are mediocre or even suck with women. And many people who wrote a lot of posts on forums also were mediocre or sucked.



Times have changed, Germany probably isn't the perfect country for this... But then again, these methods never worked too well anywhere.

One brutal example: there is a seduction coach living in the USA - Todd Valentine, ex-RSD coach. Supposedly he's an expert seducer, he has attractive women on his infield videos... While the reality is that somewhere around the middle 2010's, he was in a relationship with an ugly 4/10 woman and I think he even has a child with her. Guy spent years learning seduction...to get into a relationship with a 4/10 ugly woman. ‍

That's great example of the problem with PUA - lots of guys all around the world were trying to learn how to **** hot women from a guy who himself was ina relationship with a 4/10.

BTW The truth about him spread already around 2015, 2016 or something - with a photo of them together as proof. And what? Nothing. Uninformed guys don't know about the situation, they believe him and pay him to teach them. And that the norm in PUA - some people know a certain seduction coach is a scammer, but other guys don't know about this, so they become his clients, pay him, and his business continues despite the fact there are many people who know he's a scammer.



Some attractive guys do enter PUA community - because they're shy, socially inexperienced, because they have low self esteem and don't realise or don't accept that they're attractive.

And actually...PUA works the best for attractive guys. Because it teaches them approaching - and this makes them reach many women with with their attractiveness.

It's actually cause of problems - because a 6-7 guy who get's brainwashed by PUA propaganda will believe his good results are happening because "game works!" - not realising that he's simply handsome. Then ugly or average guys listen to him and think they will get the same results as him doing what he's doing - of course they won't. Many attractive guys become seduction coaches and mislead other, less attractive men.

I'm naturally attractive/very attractive and yet I've entered PUA community. There were two reasons for why it has happened:

1. I was extremely shy, socially anxious, had very low self esteem due to bad, abusive childhood.

2. While many women find me very attractive, I don't see it in me - when looking at the mirrior, I get the impression that I'm only slightly better looking than most men and I rate myself a 6/10. (And other men also don't anything very attractive in me.)

But the reactions of women show something very different - and of course they're the "customers" here, not me. So to judge my attractiveness realistically, I need to actually disbelieve my own eyes.

When I was in highschool, I was overweight, I was very shy and dressed like a nerd... But somehow the hottest girl in school got a crush on me. Which means that she found me to be the most attractive guy not just in the entire school, but also in her friend circle, among boys in her neighbourhood.... That doesn't match 6/10. And several other girls also showed strong interest in me despite me being a overweight, shy nerd. (BTW That was before any PUA stuff, including before any Gunwitch Method).

Many 8+ women, including many 10/10 models "salivated" at the first sight of me. But I still see a 6/10 in the mirror.

My girlfriend is a 10/10 model, and she says I'm 7/10 physically, but 10/10 in terms of "being sexy". Which generally matches the divide between how I look physically and between the crazy reactions I get from many women, including many very hot women who should be theoretically out of my league.

I have psychopatic traits (hence my user name) - and scientific studies say men with Dark Triad traits are more attractive to women than normal men. In PUA circles people have often said women are attracted to "badboys" or "jerks".

My best friend says I attract women who like psychos. Perhaps I'm 6-7/10 physically and that's my attractiveness for women who are NOT attracted to "psychos", but when a woman IS attracted to "psychos", my attractiveness gets a boost and raises from 6-7/10 to even 10/10 like my girlfriend perceives it.

Another good friend of mine says I have "serial killer vibe". Ok, so I got "serial killer vibe" and many 8+ women, many 10/10 get crazy horny, "salivate" at first sight of me? That actually makes sense - many women love "dangerous" men.

BTW PUA coach Franco wrote an article about how psychopathy is very attractive to women.

Franco wrote:

"A famous researcher of psychopathy, Meloy, did an experiment. The experiment was on the fear induced by psychopaths.

He studied the physical reactions of the staff, when interviewing psychopaths.

Those were several physical sensations connected with fear. Uneasy stomach sensations, muscle trembling, sense of weakness, breathing problems, faster heart beating.

He interpreted that as an innate reaction to dealing with a predator. The staff could “feel” the predator, on a physical level.

A woman’s silly brain feels fear. She interprets: “He is a winner. He eliminates anyone.” She does not get into account that it means: including her, if needed."


Anyway - I have entered PUA community, despite being naturally attractive/very attractive.... That does happen.

And in some ways I have benefited A LOT from the PUA community - I learned approaching, fixed my shyness, etc.

But in terms of techniques.... The PUA techniques from schools like Mystery Method or David DeAngelo's C&F actually were WORSENING my results. They were somehow ruining my naturally attractive vibe/appeal.

Somebody might say "oh you're a naturally attractive guy, you didn't need the techniques" - well, is some 5/10 or even worse 4/10 going to have great success with them if I can't?

I've seen that most of "success stories" in PUA are 6-7/10 guys - hot enough to be attractive, not hot enough to see clearly that they're attractive.

I've seen some 5/10 guys who got 6-7/10 women from time to time - maybe 1 per month, maybe one for 50 or 100 approaches, but still they got much better sex life than they'd get without PUA. I think these are the cases when PUA is working the closest to what is advertised - because these guys are indeed benefiting from being PUAs, without having good looks.

But I've also seen a lot of 5/10 guys and especially 4/10 guys who FAIL HARD. It's like they get laid with a 5/10 drunk girl once per few hundreds of approaches.... I even know cases when some guys did a 1000 approaches and did not get laid even once. ?

Also, some people got mentally damaged by PUA and I suspect they will NEVER become normal again. Like my former wing, who was a normal guy once.... He was short and 4/10 ugly, so he got poor results.... He tried harder and harder, as the PUA community told him to do.... In the end, he didn't succeed - but he managed to brainwash himself so badly, that he literally lost contact with reality. He now believes he is some kind of high value, alpha guy - while in reality women find him weird and creepy and want to get rid of him as fast as possible. He was a normal guy, but now he's delusional. "Great job", PUA community!

Thanks for the insight and also your recommendation of Gunwitch in your previous post. This seems like one of the best things I have read so far aside from Pook.

I have a similar backstory to you. I also used to be an shy overweight nerd, but I can't say I experienced any success. Are you exceptionally tall or handsome objectively speaking?

Or did the psychopathic traits do the heavy lifting?

In that regard, I'm your polar opposite. I always wanted to be the "hero" and have an unnecessarily high amount of compassion for people.

Being a psychopath isn't natural for me, but while facing severe hardships, I showed signs of acquiring some traits. Under the "right" circumstances, even normal people can develop this, I think. My compassion is the one thing that I didn't want to let go of in my life. I'm often perceived as weak-willed for that reason. Sometimes people find out the hard way that I'm not, and then I'm called sociopathic, bipolar, and the like.

Your reasoning makes sense. I know because at the time I had some of these traits myself, I was getting looks and stares from women too. But I interpret it as them feeling uneasy. Every time that happened, I got back to my usual self by telling myself, "I'm not a bad person", and they stopped looking.

I'm really interested in your perspective. Is having psychopathic tendencies that helpful?

I won't give up my ideals, but I'd like to get an idea of what I'm competing with.