No wonder men are opting out

[viking22]

No Wonder Men Are Opting Out – The Daily Sceptic

No wonder men are opting out of work and marriage, says Bettina Arndt. Modern women aren't worth it: the most miserable, anxious and insecure cohort in living memory.

dailysceptic.org

For those who want a summary of the main points

-Marriage was the mechanism that incentivised male labour supply historically it worked by shaming men into showing up economically and supporting their family i.e. remove the marriage remove the responsibility
-Now 1 in 3 men are either out of work or not looking for work
-Collapse in participation ratio correlates with a fall in the marriage rate
-It isn't just what marriage can cost men it is what marriage now delivers and the answer is not much

And as the article concludes

"So here we have the portrait of the modern woman as marriage prospect: miserable, anxious, politically radicalised, contemptuous of men, often sexually rejecting and trained to see menace in ordinary male behaviour. And yet the puzzled chorus from commentators, economists and policymakers continues: why won’t men commit? Why won’t they work?"

It is a well written article and definitely worth a read even if you don't agree with everything.

 

[Prepostereax]

Whenever there's articles, especially those raising controversy, and especially on mainstream media

It's best to view them as a form of advertising

And then figure out what it is that they're trying to sell

 

[Prepostereax]

I skimmed over the article, and what she says seems to have validity *(I wouldn't really know, I have only a few samples outside of my generation to draw on)
but she's talking at a macro level.

when you meet a woman and build a relationship, you're not thinking whether she's hypergamous or will turn into a shrew.

But with experience, you do learn to vet for things like genuine interest and compliance, hopefully averting most of the pitfalls she's outlined.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

WHAT HAS THIS BOARD COME TO?!?!? IT WASN'T ALL DOOM AND GLOOM BACK IN THE DAY

YOU'RE KILLING MY VIBE WITH THIS CONTAGIOUS SH1T

STOP POSTING BLACK PILL NONSENSE LEVEL UP AND WOMEN WILL FLOCK TO YOU LIKE A ROCK STAR



lolz

 

[Redwood]

Aftereffects of the #metoo movement and the others that happened over a decade ago

 

[Bingo-Player]

I've come to accept a lot of men have very very poor interpersonal skills and this is often the main reason they don't get laid

If you treat a women like something to be earned , achieved or won you are going to either end up with the wrong types of women or you will end up with no women at all.

Marriage has always kind of incentivises that transactional approach to a relationship and in a world where people are increasingly becoming more independent it just doesn't work anymore

Rearing children is another thing thats starting to be questioned more and more , there are of course people who still believe their sole purpose on earth is to procreate but there is definitely a growing question of " is it really worth it"

I'm seeing this from both men and women all over social media its no longer just a linear decision for people anymore

All of this means relationships between men and women are changing rapidly

We could very well be heading into a future where having multiple partners or changing them every few years becomes normal

 

[viking22]

I don't think the issue is so much getting laid. That is a lot easier I'd say than previous generations because women no longer try to trade sex for commitment and with dating apps etc you can play a numbers game and eventually hit on sexually available women.

Agree with you re the independence point. In previous generations women once their biological clock started ticking would look for a nice guy provider type to start a family with. Transactional for sure and in most cases the women after marriage would ration sex and focus their affections on the children. But at least it made sure that men worked hard to provide for their familiies, kept the birth rate up and was good for the economy.

This generation does not seem to be willing to do that. Perhaps because they've been told they can have it all. That they don't have to settle. I know so many girls in their 30s who have frozen their eggs. If you go on any dating app in a big city you'll see thousands and thousands of attractive single women in their 30s and even their 40s who have never had kids but say they want to and in many cases are serial daters and get pickier and pickier the older they get. Apparently a lot of women are also using sperm banks.

Perhaps you will get more rich men doing an Elon Musk and having babies with multiple women and providing for them. Perhaps technology will mean that women can have babies without the inconvenience of pregnancy and you'll get a lot more single mothers.

What you are also seeing is that a lot of Gen Z are turning to religion and are wanting trad wifes and some Gen Z women want to be trad wives. Generally when a societal trend goes too far things do swing in the opposite direction. Although I imagine there is still a mismatch because women want to be the trad wives of good looking millionaire businessmen not average joes.

I agree that if you are selective and do your best to make yourself attractive you can defy the odds and have marriage and children if that is what you want and I think ideally that is what most men want.

When I look at my friends most of the ones who got married it is because they met their wives in high school/college and had long term relationships and eventually got married around 25-30 the old fashioned way. Some met through friends/social circles. I cannot really think of any who met through dating apps. But a lot of women are addicted to these apps and have a love/hate relationship with them but continue to use them.

Easy to say just avoid girls who are heavy users of the dating apps and there is an adverse selection issue as you're fishing in a stagnant pond but they are ubiquitous now and designed to be addictive and it is the same with social media.

 

[Clockwerk50]

I guess some just like to play the game while others prefer sitting in the bleachers.

 

[Gamisch]

WHAT HAS THIS BOARD COME TO?!?!? IT WASN'T ALL DOOM AND GLOOM BACK IN THE DAY

YOU'RE KILLING MY VIBE WITH THIS CONTAGIOUS SH1T

STOP POSTING BLACK PILL NONSENSE LEVEL UP AND WOMEN WILL FLOCK TO YOU LIKE A ROCK STAR



lolz

New reality bruh...

Read the OP again...1 out of 3 men are out of work. 65 % dont date.

15 years ago the main question would be how do I approach and be successful at it. Nowadays, the dating app hype/ illusion is gone thus its a abyss of nothingness.

All unfortunately obviously, yet true...

 

[The Duke]

The author does a good job of connecting the dots over several decades regarding where society was at and where we are now.

When you take the handcuff's off(remove societal rules and shaming tactics) you get to see people for more of what they are in their true nature and form. Today's society is the closest thing to a free-for-all that I've seen in my lifetime and its why we have all the dysfunction and self-promotion.

In a free-for-all society, the best males get the most action. There is no system in place to ensure the lesser advantaged population of the male population has a chance with the opposite sex. It works very similar to professional sports. The top talent see's action inside the NFL, NBA, and MLB. The rest are put out to pasture.

In the 50's and 60's a broader group of males had access to women because of what society valued. Having served in the armed forces meant something. Having children and creating families was part of the American dream. Having a job so you could purchase a car and buy a house meant something. Many guys had military pensions as well as nice retirements from corporations. Society was looking for stability and they accomplished it and this gave the average male a shot. The male had an established role(provider) as did the female(supporter). It wasn't perfect, but it produced a lot of good things and created unity. This was also an era when the middle class was healthy and the majority.

Now days less noble things like looks, money, status, and self-promotion drive society. There is no common goal of unity, its more individualistic hence why we have no community. The divide between the have's and have not's continues to widen.

When more people begin to understand the pitfalls of social media, more cracks will appear in that realm and thats when you will start to see the next major shift.

The old saying "Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. This country saw a lot of hard times from the 1920's-60's(Depression, War). We had it really good for a long time and unfortunately have created a lot of weak men.

I think we have some hard financial times coming. It will come when Gen X wants to retire and won't be able to because they lack the funds. The average person is carrying too much debt, expenses are too high, and won't be able to have their home paid off by the time they reach retirement. And don't forget those who can't afford a home and will keep on paying rent that increases every year.

 

[BaronOfHair]

Quote: "Back in 1983, American author Barbara Ehrenreich wrote a powerful book — The Hearts of Men: American Dreams and the Flight from Commitment — arguing that a male revolt was underway. Since the 1950s, she suggested, men had begun rebelling against the breadwinner ethic, inspired by Playboy culture, the counterculture and a desire for personal freedom"

Yeah... In decades past, men fled to Thailand, headed off to communes, or joined outlaw motorcycle MCs, under the belief "We've escaped The Matrix!!!" Goes without saying, THAT illusion collapsed by time The 80s and(especially)early 90s rolled around, when

-The communes collapsed forcing the vanishingly few hippies left to retreat back into metropolitian areas, where they noticed Dead Head stickers attached to the bumpers of luxury automobiles, driven by their former compatriots at Woodstock. Who'd all cut their hair, traded in their Tye-Dye for Armani, and become Regan Democrats

-Sh-t-y healthcare in 3rd World nations compelled those early, and now aging, Passport Bros to return to The West

-The Feds began quite literally kicking down the clubhouse doors of every Outlaw MC from Bakersfield to Brisbane, sending men to federal prison for the remainder of their lives on racketeering charges of highly dubious merit. Those who didn't get nailed by The Feds frequently found themselves on the sticky end of gangland slayings

More and more fellas today are going to start experiencing a similar realization, as it becomes impossible to deny that Going Their Own Way isn't going to secure them a nest egg or a life above permanent squalor

 

[viking22]

The extent to which there is an AI jobs apocalypse and how governments respond to that will also be interesting.

Some studies have indicated women will bear the brunt of the initial impact because they are disproportionately represented in administrative/clerical/payroll/customer service type jobs which are easily automated. Men are still more likely to be in senior positions less vulnerable to AI disruption as well as involved in trades such as plumbing, construction work etc that are also less vulnerable.

If there is job destruction at scale then the men who are able to keep their jobs may be very advantaged as the whole independent single woman thing is dependent on women not being financially dependent on men.

Even if there is some kind of universal basic income it won't be anywhere near enough to keep women in the style they are accustomed to.

Of course it may be that rather than being more open to relationships with average looking men who are gainfully employed it may be that women decide to prostitute themselves. You see that to some extent already with the number of women turning to only fans.

But I think that things probably will get better.

Women are starting to abandon the apps and seeking real life connections and stock prices of Match/Bumble etc are down the toilet.

Women are going to see the generation that preceded them that had good careers but ended up in their 40s childless unmarried and unhappy and date more intentionally

Of course when this happens a man has to have his **** together and make sure he survives the AI jobs displacement by either learning to harness AI or being so highly skilled and expert that he has a superior value proposition than AI. If real world interactions come back into fashion then social skills which a lot of men today lack will also become increasingly important.

 

[plumber]

when survival is a right and not a privilege, why exert effort.

women want top men. perfectly natural situation. men also want the best women. the difference is that we now have lots of information to figure out who is top and get access to them or us. marriage is setup to be one to one and fails with the 80/20 math that is result of easy sorting of information about men.

we have changed our laws and culture to fit with what is happening. birth control and equal rights remove the need for marriage for women. because they don't need it, they don't protect it.

couple that with marriage/divorce laws and of course men start to see that its a no go. we are far down the rabbit hole.

last piece of the puzzle is on men. men do not respect boundary of marriage. often the logic is something like, if its not me then it will be another so i might as well.... If NO men did that, the problem would self correct really fast. the real root of the issue is on men.

nothing much left to make it a good deal for a man. women will not defend it, men will step on it out of greed.

the model is broken already. to make it worse, as men figured this out in some areas *we* added common law marriage so that women could claim marriage rights even when no agreement was made. now you can not safely provide a roof for a woman, you can not give her support, you can not take care of her without her getting the ability to activate that she now has the right.

i propose a model of privileges not rights. for sure would solve this issue, and maybe some other issues.

 

[MatureDJ]

I don't think the issue is so much getting laid. That is a lot easier I'd say than previous generations because women no longer try to trade sex for commitment and with dating apps etc you can play a numbers game and eventually hit on sexually available women.

Try doing that if 98% of men HeightMog you.

 

[BaronOfHair]

We can continue opting out or we can resurrect the mindset and approach which DID succeed at reducing the cultural influence of what we today call Wokeness, the likes of which is exemplified in this 2003 article https://www.reddit.com/r/menwritingwomen/comments/rfdd9t (Click on the picture to see it up close)

It's all but impossible to imagine the general public's perception of men becoming more receptive, if we continue to retreat from the public sphere, rather than making a conscious choice to influence The 80% who are susceptible to persuasion