Need some help w/ program modification

[Fuglydude]

hey all,

Current stats 5'8" - 180ish (or high 170s). Bodyfat sitting in the 10% range. Goals are to maximize strength. Don't really care all that much about aesthetics... I can drop weight fast and look relatively cut if I need to. Train over 10 years. 28 yrs old. I'd consider myself an ecto-mesomorph.

1 RMs/lifting stats w/ goals in brackets:

- Deads: 455 (500+)
- ATG squats: No idea, but I'm doing 315 x 5, so maybe 335-340? (400+)
- Bench: No idea, doing incline press w/ 105 lb dumbells for 6-7 reps.
- Pull ups: Best is BW + 105 for 8 reps. Still making slow progress here.
- Dips: BW + 135 for 5 reps. This has stagnated.
- Zercher Box squats: 315 x 1. Just started this exercise. (365)
- Pistol: 35/side x 5 (50/side for reps)
- 20 rep squats: 155 x 20. This is weak. Something I need to work on.

Basically my current routine is as follows. I do additional accessory work. Try and train 4x/week w/ anywhere from 1-3 light treadmill sessions.

- Deadlift/Dips.
- Squats/Pull ups.
- Push/Pull. (dumbell press/rows)

I have had great success w/ this routine over the past year or so. Obviously I've made changes to it to prevent my body from adapting, but the core lifts remain the same. I find my lower back gets stretched out very nicely when I do weighted dips/pull ups on days w/ Deads/Squats. This helps me to lift more volume w/o excessive erector spinae fatigue.

Program changes I'm considering:

1. Reducing deadlift day frequency to maybe 2x/month. (Thanks for the enlightening articles jitterbug).
2. Increasing squat day frequency to 2x/week (ideally). Been making good progress w/ squats.
3. Increase frequency of push/pull day to 1.5-2x/week. This day isn't very taxing relative to the others.
4. More functional abdominal work: I know I have muscular imbalances in my core, as my lower back is way stronger than my abs.
5. More z-squats and 20 rep squats. I have no idea where to incorporate these. I was doing lighter z-squats on push/pull day before, but don't know if this is optimal. I'm quite worried about lower back fatigue from the 20-rep squats, so will take it really light.

Other things affecting training:

* Lifestyle is a big one. I work shift work (12 hour shifts) in a high acuity critical care unit. Often will miss meals/breaks if my pt. is crashing or if I'm on transport duties. Will work on-call sometimes as well. Typically work around 50 hours/week. I strip part time on the side (although slowly getting out of this), and will often need to drop water/lean out in a week when I have a stagette/show(s). This means calorie restriction, and frequently water intake restrictions towards the end.

* Sleep: I have sleep issues. I have problems staying asleep longer than 4 hours unless I smoke weed, take benedryl, zopiclone, cyclobeneprine, etc. Its like my body is hardwired to function optimally w/ that much sleep. I feel like crap physically, but my mind/brain feels sharp. I know this isn't healthy give my activity level and lifestyle. I think I'm naturally quite sympathetic dominant...aka... hyper. Right now I only got around 2 hours but feel good. Sometimes, I find lifestyle + sleep issues = CNS burn out...

* I am chemically enhanced. Conservative doses/cycles that I'm not gonna get into. Helps to stay strong given my lifestyle/sleep issues, and look good for shows. I know I don't need them, but they're cost effective, make life easier and I don't really get side effects at my doses.

Any input is greatly appreciated.

 

[EFFORT]

Joining a powerlifting gym would be the best thing you could do for increasing your strength. Also look into west side barbell training, it would fit you and your goals really well.

 

[Drum&Bass]

Pick 1 goal that you want to focus on RIGHT NOW and it will be easier to get different perspectives on how to improve it. You can then systematically try different exercises to see what works best for you.

Over the last few weeks I've pretty much stopped deadlifting and squatting. Every once in awhile I'll do these lifts so I dont completely neglect them, but my arms and chest are my MAJOR weak points so I spend a majority of my time benching, doing isolation arm movements (with all the other cool guys that everyone on this forum loves lol) and accessory work geared towards specifically improving my bench press.

Dont try to do to much or everything all at once, Your a pretty strong guy well beyond the basic squat/bench/deadlift format every week...its time to do what no one on this forum wants to admit...its time to specialize !!

 

[Quagmire911]

I would hire someone like IronAddict, or download and utilize 5/3/1.

There are a lot of programs and variations you can try though.

Sub in some variations of exercises, try a different rep range for a while. I didn't deadlift for a month and a half once and did box squats + good mornings and that increased my deadlift quite a bit.

I really don't know that increasing squats too twice weekly is a good idea, unless you were to do one dynamic day and one max effort day (like westside), or vary the intensity in a another way.

Finding a powerlifting gym is a great idea like Effort said.

 

[Jitterbug]

You're already a pretty strong guy and are in a quite special circumstance. I think you need a coach.

If you can find one in your area, great. If you are OK with one through the Internet, I'd contact this coach (local guy for me) here: http://ptcfrankston.com and get a program + diet from him.

He has a gym full of very strong lifters who have been training for less than 2 years. Nearly 50 of them have DLed 200kg+ (most reaching 200kg within their first year of training), with 8 or 10 DLing over 250kg. None of them uses any assisting gears (belt, gloves, straps) or any drugs. They're just ordinary everyday guys who are also recreational lifters. Check the site for their record boards. Even their women are very strong & fit.

Other than modifying your program (and maybe increasing resting time!) I'd say find a gym where most guys work hard and lift heavy. It really motivates you to do well when there's friendly competition and the right atmosphere. You get the extra oomph when the bloke next to you is also squatting deep & heavy, instead of curling in the squat rack.

 

[Fuglydude]

Thanks for the input gentlemen.

I think it would be smart to join a powerlifting gym. There's one gym in my city that I know of, its in the University, and I've trained there before. Unfortunately its about a 30 minute drive away and isn't open 24-7. The gym that I train at now is a typical commercial gym w/ the spandex bunnies, and dudes working out mainly arms/chest. Its just very close to where I live and its 24-7, which makes it quite appealing. No one really lifts what I would consider heavy, except for this one tall, cute powerlifting girl. She's almost a national level powerlifter. I've shared bars/plates w/ her several times and my gf gets really jealous hahaha! I have been working out w/ my gf a lot. I enjoy spending time w/ her but we don't do the same exercises and obviously I'm a lot stronger than her so the element of competition isn't there.

DnB, I'm gonna try and increase my squats, as its a movement I think I'm deficient in, and also one that has the largest room for improvement. Would be awesome if I could get to 365 x 5 ATG. I think pistols are a secret exercise to really help ATG squats. I also think focusing on squats and limiting deads to 2x/month will help progress there. Besides pistols are there any other accessory exercises you can recommend for increasing squats?

Quag, do you think squatting 3x/2 weeks is adequate time for recovery then?

Jitterbug, checked out that site... definitely seems like a wicked place to train!! True powerlifting gyms are rare in North America. My city is known for producing many top level bodybuilders, but I'm sure very few people know about powerlifting.

So overall If I use a 2 week template and do:

- squats/chins x 3 (I guess I can do dips here or on push/pull day)
- Push/pull x 4
- Deads/Dips x 1

Is this a reasonable modification?

 

[Jitterbug]

Sorry for being a little pedantic here, but that gym is actually not a powerlifting gym. Not my definition, but the owner is very much against the training *style* of powerlifting. They train more old-school, strongman-style (i.e all compound, and very functional exercises), and closer to Olympics style of lifting. Their squat for example is high bar, narrow stance and deep ATG like Olympic squatters, instead of the low bar, wide stance, shallower powerlifting style.

Powerlifters are strong - no disrespect there. These guys train in a different way. For example, one very strong PLer came there one time. His lifts were equal or better than the strongest guys there. However, he could not pick up their 93kg granite stone, while a 70kg lifter there picked it up with ease.

This is one routine that the coach gives their toughest guys:

http://www.ptcfrankston.com/doc/newsletter/PTC_Newsletter_IssueNo92.html

Even their beginners program will make many cry:

...a full body workout three times weekly for the first 12 months. Every session I need to be adding one of the three "mores" - more reps, more sets or more weight. Reps and sets aren't important (stay around 25 total reps, whether it's 8x3, 7x4, 6x4, 5x5), effort is crucial. Don't go to failure.

Squat 3 x 10
Bench press 3 x 8
Deadlift 3 x 8
Military press 3 x 8
Bent row 3 x 8
Chin-ups 3 x 8

Do a xRM every now and then (once a month).

After 12 months, every guy who sticks to this gets a 180~200kg deadlift.

If you have time, go through some of those newsletters (1-100 are free). They contain some golden tips. You can incorporate some elements into your workouts.

Personally I think you should go on a 20 rep squat program like the above (issue #92) but I'm not sure how you're gonna cope with bugger all sleeping.

 

[Drum&Bass]

Besides pistols are there any other accessory exercises you can recommend for increasing squats?

RAW deep squatting should be the accessory work NOT the focus. You should mainly be squatting with some type of assistance if your goal is to constantly build your numbers. RAW squatting is the end result of all the various other types of squats but it shouldn't be a priority lift. (yea I said it !!!!! regular RAW squats aren't very effective for developing strength as people on this forum would like to believe !!)...In my opinion RAW deep squatting kind of sucks when your past the beginners stage and your goal is to train for strength...plus it takes way to damn long to get results.

blasphemy I know..


To build a bigger squat you have to..

1) Various Types of bars/equipment
the thicker the bar the more comfortable it is to hold heavier weight. Manta Ray is a must for instantly adding more weight to what you can currently do. Every once in awhile you can squat raw but a majority of your squats should be done using a manta ray.

2) high Rep Work
everything you do should be in the 10 - 20+ range, until you start getting closer to your max (always use the manta ray)

3) Squatting with knee raps
believe it or not using knee wraps will help add stability and more weight when deep squatting. I dont recommend doing it all the time but once every 2 weeks or so for HEAVY / LOW REP work

4) Partial range of motion
WWAAAAYYYY back in the day when i first started this workout log, I would regularly squat 135, 225, 315 all the way up to 365 for 20 reps easily then 405 for 10 and eventually making my way to 500.

Its not gonna be pretty doing a partial range of motion squat and you will look like the guys that people on these forums criticize. People may even criticize you for not doing full ROM, but nothing will develop your legs better and faster than partial range of motion.

If you can partial 500 + lbs on your back over a period of time 315 deep will feel like a piece of paper.

5) Box Squats
same thing as partials but alot more comfortable and it will build your confidence when dealing with heavier weights. I would recommend only using a thick bar with Low placement when doing these.

 

[Fuglydude]

Jitterbug... that's still a wicked form of training. Kind of takes the strengths of each sport: olympic lifting, powerlifting and strongman stuff and conglomerates them to produce functionally strong individuals overall. It really appeals to me. I suppose I'm being dogmatic, but I don't think I would benefit from the types of routines suggested in many of those newsletters, w/o completely overhauling my entire program. I would definitely not be drinking 4L of milk as suggested and getting 8 hours of sleep a night is not gonna happen for me w/o drugs. I'm still very interested in the breathing squats, but not sure where to fit them in... I was thinking on squat day after the heavy work. I would only be starting w/ 135 again, as my 20-rep numbers are very weak.

DnB... very interesting ideas... Regarding the manta-ray: I've used this once before. It felt kinda neat, but I've never really had the chance to let my nervous system get used to it. I guess it would really push the bar forward and make one do a high bar squat. What's the logic behind the higher rep work to build a strong 1 RM? I definitely agree w/ the neuromuscular conditioning aspects associated w/ getting your CNS used to big weights by doing partials/box squats in the 400-500 lb range. I do ATG squats simply because I find them easier than squatting to parallel. Not sure why... it just feels more natural. How far down would you go for partials? Like a quarter squat?

Thanks again for the ideas gentlemen...

 

[Drum&Bass]

I guess it would really push the bar forward and make one do a high bar squat.

yup but most importantly it puts you in a more comfortable squatting position. 225 for 5 reps without a manta ray feels alot harder than 225 for 8 reps with a manta ray, it takes out the stress on the back and focuses more on quads.

What's the logic behind the higher rep work to build a strong 1 RM?

just through personal experience I've had and things i've noticed with my clients.

The more you do something the better you become at it. I use to only focus on low reps and try to grind out those LONG SLOW PAINFUL 1 rep maxes, but I noticed I would just completely fail and not have the endurance to stick and push through, a majority of the time I would plateau.

Higher reps gives you the endurance to last longer and push through SLOW moving 1 rep maxes. Also doing higher reps enforces better movement patterns. It becomes reflexive which will making squatting easier overall. PLUS ! higher reps gives you more freedom to create different variables for different effects on the muscles (and you know the old saying about keeping the body guessing and constantly changing things up) of course you are gonna have those times when you do your low rep heavy work to keep you remembering how to properly contract and correctly move your body with max loads.

Now imagine someone doing squats often. Visualize this person using moderate weight for five years versus someone who squats heavy for low reps every so often for the same amount of years.

Granted all their conditions are the same and you decided you wanted to have them compete in a squatting event to see who could lift the most weight. Who would you feel more comfortable putting your money on to win and why ?

The guy who squats heavy using low reps every so often or the guy who squats moderate weight for very high reps ALL the time ??

I do ATG squats simply because I find them easier than squatting to parallel. Not sure why... it just feels more natural.

Because at the bottom of an ATG squat you can relax your leg muscles and your body is in a structurally ideal position to support load without much effort.

Partial squats, keep constant tensions on MORE muscle groups and emphasizes tension on the lower back and quads, No muscles are ever relaxed and it will take everything in your body to be tight and support the weight which is also part of the reason why you can lift LOTS more weight from a higher position. You have no choice but to concentrate on your whole body contracting to support the weight.

How far down would you go for partials? Like a quarter squat?

You will know instinctively without having to think about it just make sure you come back up when you go down

 

[Kerpal]

You relax your legs at the bottom of a squat?

 

[Drum&Bass]

You relax your legs at the bottom of a squat?

Your quads and hamstrings aren't doing anything at the bottom, your hips and glutes are doing all the support work oh yea also your back erectors, but Im assuming that ATG squatters have the flexility to squat while sitting on their calves ala Olympic lifting style.

This is deep but NOT ATG in my opinion

This is a true ATG squat, notice the angles behind the knee in both squats and you will realize the legs do nothing in a true ATG squat.

 

[Jitterbug]

This is a true ATG squat, notice the angles behind the knee in both squats and you will realize the legs do nothing in a true ATG squat.

I squat like the guy in the first pic, but I have a slight lean fwd, not so straight chest up.

Fugly, I can't explain the high rep squat giving you better 1RM, but in early Jan, my 1RM squat was 120kg. I've been doing 20 rep squat for 3 weeks as you know, and I'm currently at 90kg x20. In that same session, after the exhausting 20 rep, I hit 120kg x5 with ease. This is common with 20 rep squatters.

Partial squats and half squats have their uses (same with high box squat, resistance band squat). Two cases I know of:

- Breaking through a plateau point. So that you get a feel for higher weight.

- Fixing a problem with certain people who fail their squat not in the hole but higher at the top.

But the goal is still to be able to squat ATG with the target weight.

You can see partial squats and half squats in Paul Anderson's squat training program and that man is the strongest squatter ever lived.

The bad reputation with those comes from newbies never squatting ATG and doing partial/half squats at puny weights.

 

[Colossus]

Kinda confused on what your actual goals are.

I noticed in your journal that you've been using the same 8 or so exercise variations for quite some time, and I think your'e overdue for a change.

The diet thing is a big problem. You cant grow without substrate!

If you just want to get stronger, I have a few suggestions:

-Drop the pistol squats, and start doing direct heavy hamstring work. GH raises and Romanian DLs.

-Revamp your deadlift training. Try pulling in 3 week percentage cycles, hitting a 1RM every month.

-Change your squat variation. Saftey squat bar squats will do amazing things for strength if you can get to one. Otherwise, forget the olympic ATGs and start power squatting with the posterior chain.

-Overhead press.

-More rowing, heavy shrugs!

-Heavy ab work can be done at a commercial gym. Use a roman chair with a heavy plate behind your head (prepare to be humbled), or do standing full-flexion cable crunches with a rope.

-More benching. Use chains.

-More food!!


Hope these help.

 

[Jitterbug]

I have not enough experience to argue with Colossus but I gotta put in a few words to defend sticking to Olympics ATG squat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNzd_FcThs

The slim 69kg Bulgarian guy at the end of that video can squat 250kg Olympics ATG style with minimum fuss.

 

[Fuglydude]

Kinda confused on what your actual goals are.

I noticed in your journal that you've been using the same 8 or so exercise variations for quite some time, and I think your'e overdue for a change.

The diet thing is a big problem. You cant grow without substrate!

If you just want to get stronger, I have a few suggestions:

-Drop the pistol squats, and start doing direct heavy hamstring work. GH raises and Romanian DLs.

-Revamp your deadlift training. Try pulling in 3 week percentage cycles, hitting a 1RM every month.

-Change your squat variation. Saftey squat bar squats will do amazing things for strength if you can get to one. Otherwise, forget the olympic ATGs and start power squatting with the posterior chain.

-Overhead press.

-More rowing, heavy shrugs!

-Heavy ab work can be done at a commercial gym. Use a roman chair with a heavy plate behind your head (prepare to be humbled), or do standing full-flexion cable crunches with a rope.

-More benching. Use chains.

-More food!!


Hope these help.

I'm not dancing as much as I did this time last year... and although I know summers will likely be busy, I'm saying "no" to more and more shows, and doing my best to phase it out. This means I don't have to be cut as much of the time and helps me to modify my diet/training so that I can put on some serious size and strength. I can't balloon up obviously, as I have to be able to get into "stagette shape" in around a week, but I'm more committed now to strength goals now than before.

Couldn't agree with you more on the needing a program change aspect. This is kind of why I made this thread. I'm working on the food thing. I think my protein intake is now consistently over 200 g/day, and it shows as my post-WO weight has been consistently over 180 and I'm getting stronger. You'll see how tough it can be when you're working 12-16 hour shifts + call when you're doing clinicals for PA school! As a PA you'll probably be able to leave your work area to eat, whereas when I'm covering, I'm basically legally responsible for the well-being of the patients in my area, and I can't leave to eat or anything. As with everything, there's always a solution, and in my case, working often means that I am able to make my meals quite regimented (provided I manage to get away for a break).

Based on what you and guys like DnB are saying, I'm thinking power squatting w/ heavier weight is the way to go... I won't completely drop the ATGs but I'll definitely cut back on them greatly and work to incorporate other heavier variations.

Can you give me an idea/provide links about the percentage DLs? Definitely agree w/ training abs/hams heavier. I'll try romanian DLs and good mornings on the same day to strength my lower back.

I use dumbell rows as my staple rowing movement. Would you suggest barbell/T-bar rows as well? I can't bench too heavy due to my rotator cuffs. I can do around 2 plates w/ reverse grip bench. Will focus on this a bit more. Is dumbell bench the same as benching w/ the bar? I definitely prefer dumbells as they're a lot nicer to my shoulders.

DnB, thanks for clarifying the logic of the higher rep work for the squats. I definitely do find ATG squats easier than parallel squats... which is probably why I prefer to do them! Will definitely consider the manta... I'll start by doing stuff in the 10-12 rep range. Would you recommend doing box squats in this higher rep range as well?

Thanks again for all the help gentlemen... I'm off work for a few days (unless I get called in) so I'll try and formulate a new routine!

 

[Kerpal]

Saftey squat bar squats will do amazing things for strength if you can get to one.

Hey Colossus, can you expound on this more? My gym has a safety squat bar but I haven't tried using it for anything other than good mornings yet.

 

[Drum&Bass]

Would you recommend doing box squats in this higher rep range as well?

think of box squats like any other type of squats, some days you will go heavy with low reps. some days you will go heavy with high reps, some days moderate with high reps.

Since your just getting started, start off in the high rep range...after a few weeks you will begin to see where and how to fit in specific training parameters.

 

[Colossus]

Couldn't agree with you more on the needing a program change aspect. This is kind of why I made this thread. I'm working on the food thing. I think my protein intake is now consistently over 200 g/day, and it shows as my post-WO weight has been consistently over 180 and I'm getting stronger. You'll see how tough it can be when you're working 12-16 hour shifts + call when you're doing clinicals for PA school! As a PA you'll probably be able to leave your work area to eat, whereas when I'm covering, I'm basically legally responsible for the well-being of the patients in my area, and I can't leave to eat or anything. As with everything, there's always a solution, and in my case, working often means that I am able to make my meals quite regimented (provided I manage to get away for a break).

Based on what you and guys like DnB are saying, I'm thinking power squatting w/ heavier weight is the way to go... I won't completely drop the ATGs but I'll definitely cut back on them greatly and work to incorporate other heavier variations.

Can you give me an idea/provide links about the percentage DLs? Definitely agree w/ training abs/hams heavier. I'll try romanian DLs and good mornings on the same day to strength my lower back.

I use dumbell rows as my staple rowing movement. Would you suggest barbell/T-bar rows as well? I can't bench too heavy due to my rotator cuffs. I can do around 2 plates w/ reverse grip bench. Will focus on this a bit more. Is dumbell bench the same as benching w/ the bar? I definitely prefer dumbells as they're a lot nicer to my shoulders.

Yeah PA rotations are going to be awesome. And by that I mean they're going to suck . I want to gain as much mass as possible before then!


As for the deadlifts, there are a few options. Currently I'm doing a 70,80,90 cycle. I more or less designed this myself, but it works on the same principle as the 5/3/1. My last PR pull was 550, so I set my target max at 570. Week 1 I pull 70% of my target for 4 sets of 4, preceded by 6 x 2 with 185-225 and mini-bands. Week 2 I pull 80% of my target for 3 sets of 3, and week 3 I pull 90% for 2 sets of 2. Week 4 I go for the new PR. Weeks 1-3 all have the speed pulls preceding my regular deadlifts.

You could employ the 5/3/1 just for your deadlift as well, although it can be a lot of reps, which I don't particularly like for deadlifting.

You could also do a 3 week cycle of rack pulls---that's how I got my dead up to 550. Week 1 pull a max double from the top of your patella. Week two pull a max double from just under your tibial tubercle. Week 3 pull another max double from mid-shin, then take 10-12 days off from deadlifting. Come back and pull a new PR!

Another idea is to pull only once a month. Do heavy full-flexion good mornings with a deadlift stance and a safety squat bar, romainian deads, lats, and heavy abs---all progressive percentage loading.

Sorry I don't have any links, but I think you get the idea.

 

[Colossus]

Hey Colossus, can you expound on this more? My gym has a safety squat bar but I haven't tried using it for anything other than good mornings yet.

Sure. Most SSBs cause your upper body to pitch forward a bit, really bringing the lower back and glutes into play. Most guys have a 'glute deficiency', which means they rely more on quads for squatting rather than glutes and hams. A wise and ridiculously strong man once told me that squatting is a posterior chain exercise, and he was right. SSBs help me 'sit back' into the squat more and use glute power to move the weight. Plus, it's a hell of alot more comfortable than a straight bar!