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Pan87

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Since I asked you to apply your generalized statement to your life, and your response was for me to interpret it, can you blame me? You say you understand male nature, yet you don't understand why a guy would rely on deception instead of being open about wanting to engage other women sexually. Yet you respond with:

This is why. Even though you say you accept male nature, you still aren't confident in accepting it. If he wanted you to remain monogamous towards him, while he sleeps with women on the side, you don't know how you would feel. We both know it wouldn't sit well with you. It seems like if you truly accepted male nature, then you'd know without a doubt what the answer would be. How am I supposed to interpret your answer if you don't even know it?
It’s just too damn risky for a woman to allow her husband to invest any of his time, sexual energy or emotions in another woman.

A woman’s primal goal is to get full-focus, full-investment, full-commitment from her man.

She would be very silly to let her high value man roam free in the wilderness and sample other women. All these other women will be tempting him away from her and offering him better deals. If she’s younger, hotter, tighter then he’d ruthlessly discard her and switch his investment elsewhere. It happens. And women are not stupid. Women are highly evolved at ensnaring most men. But they struggle to ensnare an abundant alpha with options, much to her tingling pvssy’s dismay
 

SW15

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But they struggle to ensnare an abundant alpha with options, much to her tingling pvssy’s dismay
The hierarchy is....

-Alpha/Sigma Men
-Attractive Women
-Lesser Attractive Women
-Beta Men
-Omega Men
 

Pan87

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The hierarchy is....

-Alpha/Sigma Men
-Attractive Women
-Lesser Attractive Women
-Beta Men
-Omega Men
Yes, but you can break it down further.

Betas have a hierarchy too. You can be an Alpha, within the matrix. Which still makes you Beta. To be a true Alpha you have to exist outside the current Alpha-created hierarchy because the present hierarchy is run by your rival Alphas. You’re automatically in their frame. So you have to reject their hierarchy completely. That’s Sigma.

The current Alphas who run the hierarchy designate greater Betas within that hierarchy to be Matrix Alphas.

Let me know if that’s confusing.

You’re only a true Alpha if you run your own hierarchy (like a Lion Pride) or you’re a Sigma (rival Alpha to the ruling Alphas) who lives outside the Matrix like Mad Max. Banging women and laughing at the matrix Alphas. But you still live in the matrix. Eat the food, bang the women, make the money etc but you know it’s all a game.
 

Pan87

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Once again, you put words in my mouth that I never said.

What I said was I am open to discussing in an attempt to understand. But it's not a given.

Same with accepting male nature, I never said that. I never would because I am not automatically accepting of all things male, including his decision to have sex with others if it ever came to that.

I am open to to discussing, there is a huge difference. And is what I said.

DJ, with respect I am getting very tired of having to explain myself over and over because you fail to read my words properly.
It’s very well understood now that Female Sexual Goals and Male Sexual Goals directly antagonise one another.

Women are attracted to the highest value man with all the access. But that access is something she simultaneously then wants to limit once she has secured him. If the man relents and gives up his access then he has destroyed what initially attracted her to him.

High Value men are enjoying the fruits of abundance. He has many women who want to secure his commitment. If he’s a true player then he’s fully cognisant that he will turn her off by committing eventually. It’s the natural and unavoidable beta-ization process of a man who gives up options to live in scarcity and oneitis.

This could be why women were treated like property under property laws. Maybe it had to be this way or high value men would not invest. It was protection for men largely. Women were always regarded as devilish because of the fall of man being attributed to Eve.

This is Nature’s game for us. This seems to be unresolvable unless humanity forces abundant men to commit. But abundant men run the word and they are way smarter than everyone else. They have constructed a perfect word for themselves. They have access to all the women, and they have no obligations or societal pressure to commit to any of the thousands of women they bang.
 
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DonJuanjr

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Once again, you put words in my mouth that I never said.

What I said was I am open to discussing in an attempt to understand. But it's not a given.
Actually you did say that...

I acknowledged monogamy is not in a man's nature
Definitions from Oxford dictionary states:
ac·knowl·edge
1. accept or admit the existence or truth of.

This doesn't sound like "attempting to understand"....

Maybe if you use proper words to convey what you mean, you wouldn't have to keep "having to explain" yourself....

You could also quit trying to deflect every point to turn the topic to defining words you use instead of acknowledging what's being conveyed...

The point still stands.... Even when a woman such as yourself, who's "attempting to" or "has accepted" (either or, it doesn't matter) male nature, doesn't know if you could be fine with your fiance sleeping with women on the side, while demanding monogamy from you..... Why would a man expect a woman who isn't "attempting to" or "accepted" or "understand" male nature be fine with it? This is the reason for the deception.....
 
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Stuffnu

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Looking back, deciding not to get married was one of the few decisions I got right in life. I came to a realization at a young age that I couldn’t remain monogamous and maintain its vow.
To do so was against every fiber of my manhood.
 
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catsmeow

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@DonJuanjr acknowledging/accepting that monogamy is not in a man's nature (which is pretty much fact) is hardly equivalent to accepting non-monogamy as a way of life.

What's in MY nature is to communicate and discuss. Not automatically dismiss or punish. That's all I meant.

Knowing myself as I do, and how much I value monogamy, my likely response would be to leave the relationship and find a man who's more on my wavelength in that regard.

That said, I would still be open to discussing and attempting to understand his thought process. Again that does not mean I would be accepting of the lifestyle.

Hope that clarifies.

Nite.
 
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Pan87

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Consider this.

Abundant alpha men are only able to cheat and sleep around as widely as they do….because women are attracted to it. It’s not the cheating she’s attracted to, it’s the man with access and options.

So it feeds on each other.

Women use the pvssy card to try and secure high value men. And this then enables high value men to lap up all the pvssy cards.

Women mislead themselves. They are used to dangling pvssy for betas. She thinks she has magik vagina. Unfortunately, the alpha sex addict is often very immune to the pvssy card. It’s like snacking on a grape for him.
 

Stuffnu

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Consider this.

Abundant alpha men are only able to cheat and sleep around as widely as they do….because women are attracted to it. It’s not the cheating she’s attracted to, it’s the man with access and options.

So it feeds on each other.

Women use the pvssy card to try and secure high value men. And this then enables high value men to lap up all the pvssy cards.

Women mislead themselves. They are used to dangling pvssy for betas. She thinks she has magik vagina. Unfortunately, the alpha sex addict is often very immune to the pvssy card. It’s like snacking on a grape for him.
Agreed.
Cheating is a moral concept - not animalistic. A scent that women gravitate to….
 

Pan87

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Agreed.
Cheating is a moral concept - not animalistic. A scent that women gravitate to….
…And the whole artifice is supported by the Betas. Who get nothing out of this deal. They get scraps at best.

You can’t change abundant alphas. But you can help the betas realise what a crap deal marriage is. It would have the effect of women losing that social security if the betas joined and started blocking hypergamy by refusing to participate.

But betas are betas for a reason. Thirst and lack of intelligence prevent them from seeing their prison matrix
 

catsmeow

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The male version of Alpha Seed and Beta Need is this:

Men want unlimited access to unlimited women. But he wants one woman that he simultaneously invests in, she’s faithful to him, builds a future and a history together and has a family together.

Men struggle to achieve both of these competing desires for casual sex and commitment, so it’s a very conflicting thing.
This post from @Pan87 has been heavily weighing on my mind and so I asked my boyfriend about it last night. I suppose for reassurance since I am considering marrying him but anyway....

He's in his mid 40s and prior to me was a big "player" (for lack of a better word) and admitted to being with around 150-200 women since becoming sexually active in his late teens, mostly casual and short term, and two long term relationships. He admitted to having a blast BUT when he hit 40, he started feeling a shift in his attitude and what he wanted. He was burned out.

Fast forward to current. He's committed and we've been discussing getting married next year. One thing we have in common is marriage has eluded both of us; for me I have been engaged three times, broke them off for various reasons that in retrospect were the right decisions. And for him, as Pan mentioned - the conflict between wanting casual sex with many women and commitment with one woman.

For context, my parents marriage was horrendous, my dad cheated for years although he was a fantastic father, he was a crap husband. He apologized to me for allowing me to witness that because I'm sensitive and it had a extremely negative impact on me and how I viewed marriage in general.

Back on point, my boyfriend explained to me that commitment doesn't necessarily come from love because we can "love" many people but still not want to be committed

But rather that it's a choice one makes, a decision to be committed, and a person must be emotionally ready to make that decision, it shouldn't be made frivolously. That all relationships have peaks and valleys and there will also be times when we may become attracted to and desire sex with another person or persons, hence the conflict.

That's where the decision to remain faithful and committed comes into play. That the decision to remain faithful versus cheating stems from one's own moral compass and integrity.

Yes it's true, he confirmed men (generally speaking) are not naturally inclined to be monogamous but that does NOT mean they're not capable of being monogamous, they most certainly are! That if you respect and value your spouse and marriage then the choice to remain faithful is not without struggle but nevertheless relatively easy.

That the desire to have sex and attain other women (abundance) does not go away BUT you choose to not act on it.

That's commitment -- the decision to not act on the desire.

The cost is too great. Not only to your own moral integrity but to your relationship as well even if your spouse were never to find out. And if they were to ever find out or simply suspect it? Then in most cases, you're shyt, done. It's over because cheating is virtually impossible to overcome.

It's a huge risk and comes at a great cost and if you love, value and respect your partner and marriage, then you make the decision to keep it in your pants like a man versus chasing tail like a horny sex starved boy (his words). OR, don't get married.

He believes (and I agreed) that with all the dating apps in existence today and how easy sexual access and achieving abundance has become, this is why marriage is on the decline and why people (both men and women) are choosing to remain single.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Remaining single for both men and women is accepted in our society today and so again it's a choice. Own that choice. Versus committing and messing around, that's disingenuous and emotionally dishonest.

This was exactly what I needed to hear, and I believed him. It was honest and makes a lot of sense. And contrary to what some people on this forum believe and preach, I did not lose any of my attraction for him, the opposite happened. My attraction increased as well as my respect.

Nuff said from me.
Ciao guys (and gal) :) I wish you all much happiness and best of luck!
 
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BeExcellent

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Agree with the above. Marriage is about commitment and that decision to commit. In the traditional vows each spouse vows to “forsake all others” meaning you are committing NOT to indulge in intimate contact with others. This decision to commit is what creates the sanctity of the marriage as an intimate union and creates the sandbox for the married couple.

It comes down to character. When I was married I had every opportunity to cheat. I was running 40 miles a week, trim, fit, younger, gorgeous and traveling for work to major cities. Despite wearing my large wedding set I was hit on constantly and often by interesting attractive successful men. I quit wearing make up to alleviate the attention, wore flats rather than heels, I STILL got hit on. In airports, on airplanes, the rental car shuttle, getting food, walking down the sidewalk, by the doctors I worked with. All. The. Time. I could have cheated or had affairs effortlessly and without detection. Sometimes these were handsome sexy men. I never strayed. Never even considered it. It was not in my character to cheat. I have integrity and value having integrity. I was committed and was not about to violate that commitment.

This is why character is the single most important characteristic of a life partner. Character dictates how one behaves when no one is looking.

To say men can’t help it is to say men are enslaved to their primal urges, and to justify the behavior by pointing to man’s nature.

Our nature as humans is to seek pleasure. Too much indulgence in food? You get fat. Too much indulgence in anger or rage or passion? You end up in jail. Too much indulgence in drugs or alcohol or tobacco? You get addicted and/or you ruin your health. Too much indulgence in sex? You lose the ability to build a meaningful relationship and you end up lonely or alone.

So maturing is a process of learning to control the nature of being human, to exhibit character and to temper all these desires for a constructive existence rather than a destructive existence. That is the process of building character. But many people choose not to because it’s not easy to say no to all those pleasurable temptations. And to see the justification of it as “a man’s nature” tells me these are men without character and too immature to value character and the process of building it.

And the result? Women who have good character are not going to give those guys the time of day. So you won’t come across them in your comings and going’s because this way of existing actually is repelling to great women.

And at the end of the day his lack of character is what has rotted the OP’s marriage.
 

bat soup

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Just keep banging her for as long as it lasts, then move on. You had her best years. Let some other schmuck deal with her as she declines and heads towards the wall.

Someone else is driving my old BMW now. Last I heard, it was going to be exported to West Africa. Hopefully they'll enjoy it, but they shouldn't forget who drove it first.
 

bat soup

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This post from @Pan87 has been heavily weighing on my mind and so I asked my boyfriend about it last night. I suppose for reassurance since I am considering marrying him but anyway....

He's in his mid 40s and prior to me was a big "player" (for lack of a better word) and admitted to being with around 150-200 women since becoming sexually active in his late teens, mostly casual and short term, and two long term relationships. He admitted to having a blast BUT when he hit 40, he started feeling a shift in his attitude and what he wanted. He was burned out.

Fast forward to current. He's committed and we've been discussing getting married next year. One thing we have in common is marriage has eluded both of us; for me I have been engaged three times, broke them off for various reasons that in retrospect were the right decisions. And for him, as Pan mentioned - the conflict between wanting casual sex with many women and commitment with one woman.

For context, my parents marriage was horrendous, my dad cheated for years although he was a fantastic father, he was a crap husband. He apologized to me for allowing me to witness that because I'm sensitive and it had a extremely negative impact on me and how I viewed marriage in general.

Back on point, my boyfriend explained to me that commitment doesn't necessarily come from love because we can "love" many people but still not want to be committed

But rather that it's a choice one makes, a decision to be committed, and a person must be emotionally ready to make that decision, it shouldn't be made frivolously. That all relationships have peaks and valleys and there will also be times when we may become attracted to and desire sex with another person or persons, hence the conflict.

That's where the decision to remain faithful and committed comes into play. That the decision to remain faithful versus cheating stems from one's own moral compass and integrity.

Yes it's true, he confirmed men (generally speaking) are not naturally inclined to be monogamous but that does NOT mean they're not capable of being monogamous, they most certainly are! That if you respect and value your spouse and marriage then the choice to remain faithful is not without struggle but nevertheless relatively easy.

That the desire to have sex and attain other women (abundance) does not go away BUT you choose to not act on it.

That's commitment -- the decision to not act on the desire.

The cost is too great. Not only to your own moral integrity but to your relationship as well even if your spouse were never to find out. And if they were to ever find out or simply suspect it? Then in most cases, you're shyt, done. It's over because cheating is virtually impossible to overcome.

It's a huge risk and comes at a great cost and if you love, value and respect your partner and marriage, then you make the decision to keep it in your pants like a man versus chasing tail like a horny sex starved boy (his words). OR, don't get married.

He believes (and I agreed) that with all the dating apps in existence today and how easy sexual access and achieving abundance has become, this is why marriage is on the decline and why people (both men and women) are choosing to remain single.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Remaining single for both men and women is accepted in our society today and so again it's a choice. Own that choice. Versus committing and messing around, that's disingenuous and emotionally dishonest.

This was exactly what I needed to hear, and I believed him. It was honest and makes a lot of sense. And contrary to what some people on this forum believe and preach, I did not lose any of my attraction for him, the opposite happened. My attraction increased as well as my respect.

Nuff said from me.
Ciao guys (and gal) :) I wish you all much happiness and best of luck!
Men generally want a serious relationship with one woman, and as much sex as possible with hundreds of others.

Since those two desires are mutually exclusive, sooner or later in life men are forced to choose one path or the other or....

to do what most people do and lie.
 

catsmeow

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t comes down to character. When I was married I had every opportunity to cheat. I was running 40 miles a week, trim, fit, younger, gorgeous and traveling for work to major cities. Despite wearing my large wedding set I was hit on constantly and often by interesting attractive successful men. I quit wearing make up to alleviate the attention, wore flats rather than heels, I STILL got hit on. In airports, on airplanes, the rental car shuttle, getting food, walking down the sidewalk, by the doctors I worked with. All. The. Time. I could have cheated or had affairs effortlessly and without detection. Sometimes these were handsome sexy men. I never strayed. Never even considered it. It was not in my character to cheat. I have integrity and value having integrity. I was committed and was not about to violate that commitment.
Thanks for chiming in @Be and wanted to respond to this^. I understand you had many opportunities to cheat and never considered it, which of course is admirable but did you ever feel a "desire" to cheat? You weren't clear about that, hence why I'm asking.

For me, I receive quite a bit of attention and get hit on as well, but the difference for me is that when in a committed relationship and in love with my SO, I have absolutely NO desire to cheat. Unlike men, I am a naturally monogamous person, it's my nature to be monogamous.

It really has nothing to do with my character or moral integrity, although I like to think I possess both, I just don't have the desire to have sex with other men..

This is where men differ and what my boyfriend explained. Given that men are not naturally monogamous, there might be occasions where they DO have the desire, but after making a commitment, choose to not act on that desire due to possessing a strong character and moral integrity.

So it's a bit different, at least for me.
 
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Barrister

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Thanks for chiming in @Be and wanted to respond to this^. I understand you had many opportunities to cheat and never considered it, which of course is admirable but did you ever feel a "desire" to cheat? You weren't clear about that, hence why I'm asking.

For me, I receive quite a bit of attention and get hit on as well, but the difference for me is that when in a committed relationship and in love with my SO, I have absolutely NO desire to cheat. Unlike men, I am a naturally monogamous person, it's my nature to be monogamous.

It really has nothing to do with my character or moral integrity, although I like to think I possess both, I just don't have the desire.

This is where men differ and what my boyfriend explained. Given that men are not naturally monogamous, there might be occasions where they DO have the desire to cheat, but after making a commitment, choose to not act on that desire due to possessing a strong character and moral integrity.

So it's a bit different, at least for me.
I think almost every woman you speak to would tell you that she is "monogamous." The problem is that many women will consider themselves "monogamous" when in fact they simply start an emotional affair at the tail end of a LTR/marriage and then end the LTR. The term that we use for this here at SS is called "monkey-branching." It's an inherent skill. As has been repeated here ad nauseam, women will generally mourn the loss of the relationship well before it actually ends and begin mentally preparing herself for after. This is also why women don't stay single very long - they many times have something else lined up ready to go as soon as they shut the book on the last one. So, while it may not be true physical cheating that the woman generally partakes it, it is only because she is laying the groundwork for termination before it gets to that point. To me, that isn't true monogamy.
 

catsmeow

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So, while it may not be true physical cheating that the woman generally partakes it, it is only because she is laying the groundwork for termination before it gets to that point. To me, that isn't true monogamy.
Appreciate the response and I agree with you. It's not just women however, both genders can engage in emotional cheating as well as physical cheating.

This thread is about physical cheating and men's nature to be non-monogamous, which is what my boyfriend and I discussed last night and what I posted about this morning.
 

Barrister

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Appreciate the response and I agree with you. It's not just women however, both genders can engage in emotional cheating as well as physical cheating.

This thread is about physical cheating and men's nature to be non-monogamous, which is what my boyfriend and I discussed last night and what I posted about this morning.
I think the OP wasn't exactly on the topic of cheating at all and this has become kind of a sub-discussion within the "marriage" one -- however, I was responding to your previous post where you said that "unlike men" you were monogamous. The truth is both men and women have to go against their natural inclinations to be truly monogamous. And I am not looking to be argumentative with you about whether you are or you aren't (since I wouldn't know anyway). I do, however, know many women who have told me they are monogamous or "they would never cheat" (a favorite) but partake in the monkey-branching I described with a man (or men) they are interested in during the relationship. Again, that isn't monogamous. That is just making a preemptive strike.
 

catsmeow

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I think the OP wasn't exactly on the topic of cheating at all and this has become kind of a sub-discussion within the "marriage" one -- however, I was responding to your previous post where you said that "unlike men" you were monogamous. The truth is both men and women have to go against their natural inclinations to be truly monogamous. And I am not looking to be argumentative with you about whether you are or you aren't (since I wouldn't know anyway). I do, however, know many women who have told me they are monogamous or "they would never cheat" (a favorite) but partake in the monkey-branching I described with a man (or men) they are interested in during the relationship. Again, that isn't monogamous. That is just making a preemptive strike.
Thanks for clarifying but I knew what you meant in your first post. I also didn't take offense or interpret as you being argumentative, it's a true observation and great point. I am in total agreement with you. :)
 
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