Learning Lessons

[Stuff17]

I’m new here and have been applying some of the advice. Overall dating volume is up and I’m getting consistent dates. Recently I caught feelings for a girl I had been seeing. It surprised me because I wasn’t initially very excited about her. She started as more of a “rep” date. Around date 5–6 I noticed myself shifting behavior, more outcome focused, more reactive to her response timing, and more mental energy spent on her vs other options. Around the same time, I noticed her investment and enthusiasm taper.


I’m not trying to fix this specific situation. I see it as likely done or low probability. My question is for the more experienced guys. How do you catch these internal shifts early before they change your behavior? Do validation seeking tendencies always show up when you actually like someone? Or does it become more stable with time and volume? How do you stay mentally consistent when you actually start to care?

 

[RoadKing_Rabbit]

Give yourself a hand for even noticing this. I think you'll get to your goal keeping this mindset. From what I can tell based off of what you wrote, I'm not seeing a mistake. After about 5-6 dates, I'd expect her to ask the "What are we?" question. If she hasn't, either she's super cautious or doesn't want a relationship. Maybe she just enjoys certain parts of your dates or certain parts of your character she hasn't found yet in another man.

Validation seeking doesn't always show up, no. Now asking for something or wanting to communicate an expectation or preference, that's different than seeking validation. If you find yourself doing this, maybe she isn't very communicative of or showing appreciation on the level you'd like. If you didn't start something exclusive with her AND didn't make it clear to her that's where it was going, then I say chalk this up as a learning experience.

Enough push/pull, give/take with experiences that don't feel like 'another G-D'd job' will make these sorts of things easier to navigate. Most people don't treat dating and relationships as requiring skills. They absolutely do. It sounds like you're doing a little better than you think you are. It seems you've also cracked out of the scarcity mindset and that even though you really like this girl, it's not the end of the world. The more positive experiences you can create for yourself the more likely you are to keep pushing. No one likes grabbing a hot pan; even if you learn from it.

You'll have to use your own judgement on whether you want to cut contact, (not what I'd do personally) wait for her to bring something up (also not what I'd do) or have a discussion with her about what kind of communication you like to see in a lady. Might lead to a "what are we" talk in which you'll be honest about what you'd like with this lady. If her response doesn't excite ye olde flaggy waggy, then you might say she will feel like more 'work' to keep her around which you will likely resent and she'll either dump you or take advantage of said 'work' you're willing to do which gives HER validation.

All in all, it matters what YOU want as well as what she wants! The biggest thing I noticed in this post was you saying "I wasn't initially very excited about her." Understanding that no matter how ludicrous your needs/wants may seem to you, you can't change certain things about yourself and the resentment or disappointment will surface later on. People ignore the phase after the 'fun' and 'nostalgia/novelty' wear off. In a healthy relationship, the fun doesn't just disappear magically. Usually what happens is one party or another wasn't honest with themselves or their partner. The frustrating thing is that it isn't always known that someone wasn't being honest. We have our fairytale la-te-da upbringing and bad movies to explain our lack of skills in this area.

 

[SmoothHendrixPS2]

Have you guys had sex? It will be easier to give you feedback if you give your honest answer on that. Big difference between going on dates with multiple women, and actually f**king multiple women when it comes to indifference and abundance mindsets.

 

[Clockwerk50]

Sometimes when someone tries to pull away from a relationship, it actually makes the other person want them more. Instead of ending things clearly, one person pulls back emotionally while still staying around. That often increases the other person’s interest and creates a frustrating push-pull cycle.

I don’t know exactly what caused her to pull back here, but plates usually break either because things got monotonous, attraction fell, or they were taking for granted. When I notice that happening, I frame it as “alright, you win,” refocus on my own life, and move on instead of staying stuck or chasing. Outcome independence should be the default state of mind.

 

[TheGambino]

Sometimes when someone tries to pull away from a relationship, it actually makes the other person want them more. Instead of ending things clearly, one person pulls back emotionally while still staying around. That often increases the other person’s interest and creates a frustrating push-pull cycle.

I don’t know exactly what caused her to pull back here, but plates usually break either because things got monotonous, attraction fell, or they were taking for granted. When I notice that happening, I frame it as “alright, you win,” refocus on my own life, and move on instead of staying stuck or chasing. Outcome independence should be the default state of mind.

best , chasing has never worked

 

[BackInTheGame78]

You continue dating new women and building your pipeline so each woman naturally has lower value to you.

 

[Stuff17]

Have you guys had sex? It will be easier to give you feedback if you give your honest answer on that. Big difference between going on dates with multiple women, and actually f**king multiple women when it comes to indifference and abundance mindsets.

Yes, and she is not the only woman I sleep with. I don't have the time or mental energy for a huge roster. Talk/date 3. Sleeping with 2. The other is a trad Catholic.

Sometimes when someone tries to pull away from a relationship, it actually makes the other person want them more. Instead of ending things clearly, one person pulls back emotionally while still staying around. That often increases the other person’s interest and creates a frustrating push-pull cycle.

I don’t know exactly what caused her to pull back here, but plates usually break either because things got monotonous, attraction fell, or they were taking for granted. When I notice that happening, I frame it as “alright, you win,” refocus on my own life, and move on instead of staying stuck or chasing. Outcome independence should be the default state of mind.

I feel this dynamic going on.


For added context: She is a master’s student, fully employed, and working as a graduate assistant. I’m finishing law school and work for a firm on the side.


By taper, I mean her energy on dates has felt lower, texting is slower paced, and she doesn’t go very deep emotionally. Her body language has always been somewhat closed off though, even early on. Overall enthusiasm has been pretty steady except for Date 5.


She has never really initiated communication, but she will initiate sex. On the flip side, she will sometimes pay for smaller dates, drives 2 hours round trip (we live about an hour apart) to see me, and stays out very late on dates even if she works the next day.


Sex started on Date 2 (after a ~10 hour date). Around Date 3 I noticed my feelings starting to shift. Date 5 felt flat. It ended with a side hug, and she said she was tired. All of our dates have been over 5 hours.


I plan all logistics. Early on we saw each other every weekend. Now it can be 2 weeks between dates, which I understand given her schedule.


Recently when I tried to plan upcoming weekends, she said she’s busy the next couple weekends.


I’m trying to determine if this reads more like attraction drop, or just someone who is legitimately overloaded, especially paired with the lower-energy Date 5. Or maybe interest has shifted to someone else? After all, she already has plans on Valentines Day.


Curious how you all would read this pattern.

 

[RoadKing_Rabbit]

Eek. That last paragraph isn't a good sign. Also, a five hour date when you already live that far apart? In those five hours, do you include the commute? Good lord, man! You're about to pass a state bar and you're getting side hugs and waning interest? Maybe she's keeping you 'at arms distance' to see if you're a 'safe svcker' that isn't aware of feminine wiles and she can utilize you later. That's my cold and calculating side, please don't take that as me being harsh. Not my intent.

Do you live in a fairly secluded area? My cut off would be about 40 mins one way. That's already over an hour of your time even if it's just a 30 minute commute. You've got to freshen up, get your look together and then get to the venue, etc... THEN the actual date. Your time as a legal professional is about to be expensive. You should chalk that up with some extra self worth in your personal time. Because other people would be willing to PAY you for your time. Not trying to blow sunshine up someone's arshe, but if you don't value your time like that and go after what you want, who's going to do it for you?

Sorry. Back to the stuff you said. "Busy the next couple weekends." Plans for V-day already. 5+ dates and a side hug finish. I could always be wrong, but this sounds like she's trying to 'politely' allow you to pursue other women and doesn't want to have to come out and tell you she's not into it. If you were who she's wanting to be around, she'd dang near be the one making sure YOU had plans with HER on V-day and the next two weekends. Unless there's a family or work commitment. I'll usually excuse those at least one time if she's willing to commit to another day and follows through.

Probably not what you want to hear, but it's not all bad news. The good news is no matter how shiny and fully loaded this 26' model is, there are other manufacturers and 27' is already engineering their lineup. Catch my drift? You've got one heck of a profession in the works, don't let a lady screw that up for ya! And at your age? That's a HUGE win.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Yes, and she is not the only woman I sleep with. I don't have the time or mental energy for a huge roster. Talk/date 3. Sleeping with 2. The other is a trad Catholic.





I feel this dynamic going on.


For added context: She is a master’s student, fully employed, and working as a graduate assistant. I’m finishing law school and work for a firm on the side.


By taper, I mean her energy on dates has felt lower, texting is slower paced, and she doesn’t go very deep emotionally. Her body language has always been somewhat closed off though, even early on. Overall enthusiasm has been pretty steady except for Date 5.


She has never really initiated communication, but she will initiate sex. On the flip side, she will sometimes pay for smaller dates, drives 2 hours round trip (we live about an hour apart) to see me, and stays out very late on dates even if she works the next day.


Sex started on Date 2 (after a ~10 hour date). Around Date 3 I noticed my feelings starting to shift. Date 5 felt flat. It ended with a side hug, and she said she was tired. All of our dates have been over 5 hours.


I plan all logistics. Early on we saw each other every weekend. Now it can be 2 weeks between dates, which I understand given her schedule.


Recently when I tried to plan upcoming weekends, she said she’s busy the next couple weekends.


I’m trying to determine if this reads more like attraction drop, or just someone who is legitimately overloaded, especially paired with the lower-energy Date 5. Or maybe interest has shifted to someone else? After all, she already has plans on Valentines Day.


Curious how you all would read this pattern.

I'm guessing the distance is probably playing a role in this as after the initial surge wears off and it becomes something you have to do over and over again it starts to really make you think harder about things as it's not fun having to do that and try to fit that into a busy schedule.

Also, you likely are not the only guy she is dating regardless of what she tells you.

 

[We_ArE_VeNOM]

Around date 5–6

There lies the problem..

You simps will never learn.

 

[sevbucmash]

It's a death spiral. Girl pulls away, afc starts chasing even harder, girl loses interest even more.
Good read: https://www.sosuave.net/forum/threads/interest-level-scale.16420/
Judge where you are and act accordingly.

As far as not to fall into similar situation later on. You must know her interest level in you, accurately. Play only to raise that IL. If you're not raising her IL then you're just hanging in there and that is afc. If she senses afc it's just a matter of time before she starts losing IL.

 

[Clockwerk50]

Yes, and she is not the only woman I sleep with. I don't have the time or mental energy for a huge roster. Talk/date 3. Sleeping with 2. The other is a trad Catholic.





I feel this dynamic going on.


For added context: She is a master’s student, fully employed, and working as a graduate assistant. I’m finishing law school and work for a firm on the side.


By taper, I mean her energy on dates has felt lower, texting is slower paced, and she doesn’t go very deep emotionally. Her body language has always been somewhat closed off though, even early on. Overall enthusiasm has been pretty steady except for Date 5.


She has never really initiated communication, but she will initiate sex. On the flip side, she will sometimes pay for smaller dates, drives 2 hours round trip (we live about an hour apart) to see me, and stays out very late on dates even if she works the next day.


Sex started on Date 2 (after a ~10 hour date). Around Date 3 I noticed my feelings starting to shift. Date 5 felt flat. It ended with a side hug, and she said she was tired. All of our dates have been over 5 hours.


I plan all logistics. Early on we saw each other every weekend. Now it can be 2 weeks between dates, which I understand given her schedule.


Recently when I tried to plan upcoming weekends, she said she’s busy the next couple weekends.


I’m trying to determine if this reads more like attraction drop, or just someone who is legitimately overloaded, especially paired with the lower-energy Date 5. Or maybe interest has shifted to someone else? After all, she already has plans on Valentines Day.


Curious how you all would read this pattern.

My first thought is that you became extremely relationship-focused. You got too familiar and overexposed yourself, and even the slightest feeling of relief on her end, that you weren’t there or that she didn’t have to drive all the way to see you, and it is all over for you.

Sometimes you need to remain a little elusive and occupy her mind by alternating your presence with distance or through eventful moments followed by absences. If you’re always fully available and predictable, you risk becoming boring. The moment someone feels they know exactly what to expect from you, attraction can fade.

A couple of pointers in how to do this is by canceling the date and re-scheduling immediately. You can also initiate communication 3 days in a row and ghost her the 4th. There are more ways but I strongly suggest to not spend so much time with them when hanging out, especially so early on.

 

[Stuff17]

Eek. That last paragraph isn't a good sign. Also, a five hour date when you already live that far apart? In those five hours, do you include the commute? Good lord, man! You're about to pass a state bar and you're getting side hugs and waning interest? Maybe she's keeping you 'at arms distance' to see if you're a 'safe svcker' that isn't aware of feminine wiles and she can utilize you later. That's my cold and calculating side, please don't take that as me being harsh. Not my intent.

Do you live in a fairly secluded area? My cut off would be about 40 mins one way. That's already over an hour of your time even if it's just a 30 minute commute. You've got to freshen up, get your look together and then get to the venue, etc... THEN the actual date. Your time as a legal professional is about to be expensive. You should chalk that up with some extra self worth in your personal time. Because other people would be willing to PAY you for your time. Not trying to blow sunshine up someone's arshe, but if you don't value your time like that and go after what you want, who's going to do it for you?

Sorry. Back to the stuff you said. "Busy the next couple weekends." Plans for V-day already. 5+ dates and a side hug finish. I could always be wrong, but this sounds like she's trying to 'politely' allow you to pursue other women and doesn't want to have to come out and tell you she's not into it. If you were who she's wanting to be around, she'd dang near be the one making sure YOU had plans with HER on V-day and the next two weekends. Unless there's a family or work commitment. I'll usually excuse those at least one time if she's willing to commit to another day and follows through.

Probably not what you want to hear, but it's not all bad news. The good news is no matter how shiny and fully loaded this 26' model is, there are other manufacturers and 27' is already engineering their lineup. Catch my drift? You've got one heck of a profession in the works, don't let a lady screw that up for ya! And at your age? That's a HUGE win.

I hear you.

I don't live in a secluded area and go on many first dates. Normally, I'm not interested enough to go on a second. Many of the girls aren't what I am looking for.

More on the side-hug & V-day: I read it roughly the same as you and assumed disinterest. So, I sent a polite HR goodbye text to her. She pushed back, apologizing for giving that impression, explaining that she is overwhelmed from her pursuits, and understood if I wanted to end things. In my experience, most girls either don't reply or give something very short after a goodbye text. I took some time to think about it and moved forward leaving the door open. This is where I'm at with her now.

She also apologized for the lack of energy after date 5 without me inquiring about it, saying that she didn't want to cancel but knew she was tired. Unknown to me, she was waiting in her parked car at the speakeasy for 3.5 hours before that date. I assume she didn't want to cancel because the weekend before that she same day canceled as she needed to work on a project that was due.

I look at the patterns and can make arguments for either way. To avoid adding irrelevant details, I left a lot of facts out in my initial post.

I'm guessing the distance is probably playing a role in this as after the initial surge wears off and it becomes something you have to do over and over again it starts to really make you think harder about things as it's not fun having to do that and try to fit that into a busy schedule.

Also, you likely are not the only guy she is dating regardless of what she tells you.

I'm sure I'm not the only one, however she's spent 4 of the last 6 weekends with me. Given her schedule, it would be difficult to give meaningful time many others.

There lies the problem..

You simps will never learn.

Haha, thats why I'm here man

 

[Clockwerk50]

More on the side-hug & V-day: I read it roughly the same as you and assumed disinterest. So, I sent a polite HR goodbye text to her. She pushed back, apologizing for giving that impression, explaining that she is overwhelmed from her pursuits, and understood if I wanted to end things. In my experience, most girls either don't reply or give something very short after a goodbye text. I took some time to think about it and moved forward leaving the door open. This is where I'm at with her now.

She also apologized for the lack of energy after date 5 without me inquiring about it, saying that she didn't want to cancel but knew she was tired. Unknown to me, she was waiting in her parked car at the speakeasy for 3.5 hours before that date. I assume she didn't want to cancel because the weekend before that she same day canceled as she needed to work on a project that was due.

Like I said in my original post, pursuit and retreat. You retreated first with your polite goodbye text as soon as you noticed her distance (side-hug, low date energy), and she pursued by apologizing and explaining herself. The cycle will repeat when she withdraws again. Her waiting in the car or apologizing doesn’t change the pattern.

I hope it doesn’t continue for your own sake, but it’s something to be aware of. At this point, staying caught in it would just be self-torture.