Killing the beta, proper frame and moving past games into game

ohrein

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The Intro :

"He couldn’t kill the beta (if he was even aware of it), so he killed himself."

BUCKLE UP, THIS IS A LONG ONE

I've seen a lot of posts and great discussion about frame and game lately and it got me thinking both about my own understanding, and some of the cracks in my own mentality I've been seeing in my current LTR. It also sent me back a bit to a point in my life in which I was game aware, yet had not internalized game. While I was never suicidal, I was so depressed about a girl that it did nearly kill me. Blue pill conditioning and mental illness can actually be fatal, and knowing that is incredibly important. (https://therationalmale.com/2012/10/22/casualties/)

"If a man internalizes for the majority of his life that he “can’t live without” a woman and he has even mild self-esteem issues or personality disorders it may be that he literally can’t live without a girlfriend or wife."

It is from personal experience that I can confidently state that without internalized game, you will ultimately fail. At this time in my life, I had red pill awareness and decent game skills. I was getting laid and spinning plates and yet, I still fell victim to ONEITIS. I hadn't properly killed the beta. (https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/21/kill-the-beta-2/)

Killing the beta :

Alpha/Beta terms are thrown around a lot and I want to avoid the semantic discussions. So in this context beta simply means blue pill conditioned. A guy who tries to "win" the hearts of women, idealizes and desires women to the point of putting himself second, but more importantly, a guy who needs a woman in his life. It's my opinion that this last point is the most dangerous.

A big part of blue pill conditioning is the underlying subconscious socio-cultural pressure that men are defined by the women they can attain. Guys who don't get laid are losers, guy's who have their pick of the litter are the heroes. To quote Tyler Durden, "You're not your fvcking khakis". This idea that a man's value can be measured by the woman he is with is feminine imperative conditioning. Let that sink in. You think you're hot sh1t because you get hot women? What you're saying is, "my value comes from the value of the women I can attract". Doesn't get much more beta than that.

It is imperative that during your interactions with women that you consciously attempt to frame those interactions in your own head as something that does not define who you are. You must kill the beta and to quote Durden again, "Just. Let. Go." You are not the women you have access to. I know this is much harder to say than do as it took me many years to truly even understand it, and I still have moments every so often where I slip into old thought patterns. But you need to internalize this not only for your success with women, but more importantly your own happiness.

Proper frame :

Frame has become a bit of a nebulous term on this board. I think a lot of us understand certain parts of it, have even internalized parts of it, but are missing the overall context. Or at least, I don't see the overall context explained well. This is something I am guilty of myself. If I were to ask everyone to define frame, I think you would see a different answer from almost every person. There is a lot of subjectivity and personal choice in what an individual's frame is, but it's important to understand how frame is supposed to function at a meta level. So I've gone back to Rollo and had a solid think about it after some posts in another thread made me interested in my own understanding again.

"You are either operating in your own frame or you’re operating in hers. Also understand that the balance of frame often shifts. Frame is fluid and will find its own level when a deficit or a surplus of will is applied to change it." (https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/12/frame/)

So what is proper frame? Frame is the complex set of values and expectations you enter into a relationship with. I will not tolerate cheating is an example of a value within a frame. There are an infinite set of values that could be within your frame and this is the subjective/personal aspect of frame. But where I see the most confusion around frame is how to apply the concept to actual women.

Do you force women into your frame? Do women naturally defer to it? What happens if women operate outside your frame?

Applying frame is simply not compromising yourself or you needs to continue access to a woman. You do not need to control every single interaction, a woman will not meet every single value in your frame, sometimes you will have to compromise or even enter her frame. But as long as you are living your life without putting the women you're involved with on a pedestal, you are exerting frame control. Frame becomes more important the longer you are with a woman as by setting frame, you must lead the relationship. You must be the captain. The individual details are unimportant, it's the overall meta-frame that matters.

Games or game

It seems necessary when starting this journey that your initial foray into game is with games. It's important to learn the game by playing it. At some point though, as a few posters have been pointing out lately (@Macaframalama , @DEEZEDBRAH , and probably more), you must move past games into game. I'd call it mastery.

Game, as Rollo himself has pointed out, is actually an unfortunate term we've ended up with due to the implications and semiotic value of the word. You can't hear the word game without thinking about things like rules, plays, winning, scoring. While some of these do apply to dating, true mastery comes from something past games. You stop playing the game to impress people, to get high scores and to win. You play the game because you enjoy it. You're good at the game, you understand the rules, in fact, you've mastered the game to the point that parts of it are mundane.

I think this is a point most red pill guys who put in the work reach naturally. However, I also think you can be aware of the ultimate goal and move more intentionally towards it.

Instead of asking yourself if the plays you're making are how you win the game, ask yourself what winning the game actually looks like.

Are you content? What do you actually want? What do you expect from the women you're dating?

Is the way you're playing the game actually making your life better, or is there a greater purpose you should be seeking?


Not because this will bring you greater success with women, although it will, but because you need to remove yourself from the social conditioning in which your value comes from the women you're with.

Closings thoughts

I'm hoping for some discussion on various points here and will be updating the post as needed. I'm still digesting a lot of this conceptually and I'm sure there's gaps in my thinking. This post is in part me trying to understand it at a deeper level. But it's vitally important for guys to incorporate this meta thought into their game so that they can unplug correctly and have the relationships they desire.
 
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skinnyguy

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John Cena is alpha and yet he went on national television to say that he wants to give Nikki Bella a baby, even though he said for years he didn’t want one.

Not all alpha men are completely selfish and spin plates. Think of all of the alphas who are loyal to one woman and get married. SS has this warped notion that all alphas are spinning 20+ plates. This is contradictory to saying that alphas don’t need women. Alphas need women the MOST. I have not seen one alpha male who has gone 20 years without having a girlfriend because he feels like he doesn’t need women.
 

zekko

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John Cena is alpha and yet he went on national television to say that he wants to give Nikki Bella a baby, even though he said for years he didn’t want one.
He said for years that he didn't want to get married or have children. This is because he went through a divorce and said he has family depending on him and he wouldn't put his resources at risk. But Nikki wanted to get married, so he gave in and proposed to her. Then she started crying because she would never get to be a mom, so he changed his mind again and said he wanted to put a baby in her. So she basically manipulated him into changing his goals all around to meet hers.

He's got plenty of money though, I don't see why he couldn't afford a kid or two. But the problem with these celebrities is they are earning peak money when they're hot, then later they get divorced and they're stuck paying huge settlements and child support, but they don't have the demand they once had. That happened to Hulk Hogan, he got stuck with a huge divorce settlement at a time when his wrestling career was over, he had hip replacement, and struggled while his ex-wife lived like a queen. Not a new story.
 

Chev.Chelios

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thanks for writing this up, aggree completely.

social conditioning Is way more intense and fvxked up then you can ever imagine, without even realizing it people are living in a satanic, toxic, repugnant state of conditioning.

every issue your having with woman is tied to it
 

Grewd

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It's not a very long time since women needed a man, but in that time they really did. Today many men think they need a woman, but they don't have any good reason to like the women in the past had. This need is entirely irrational and imaginary.

Frame seems to be difficult to understand for many, but it is difficult to explain as it's so metaphysical. A frame can be defined many different ways, that's what many end up discussing. However a frame is as you say just to define boundaries, values and expectations. Keeping the frame is to not go against those definitions. The question of who's frame one is operating under is just to determine if one is keeping ones own boundaries, or just following the rules set by the other person. Sadly many of those boundaries get stretched and/or thrown away to keep and please a woman, many men don't even have a frame and can only follow hers. This will be at the expense of oneself, the frame was constructed for that precise reason, to protect oneself from harm (physically or emotionally).

Game is a balance of being comfortable, fun and at the same time negotiating the terms with an interest in keeping ones own frame. Often it will simply be incompatible with the other person and fair terms cannot be negotiated, this is when it's most important to back out instead of let go of standards.
 

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skinnyguy

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Most of this frame stuff is bull****, I’ve seen highly alpha males get completely controlled by their wives.

I may be 36 and unmarried, but I have no one controlling me and I can do whatever I want. Wouldn’t trade places with an “alpha” who is paying child support.
 

mrgoodstuff

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He said for years that he didn't want to get married or have children. This is because he went through a divorce and said he has family depending on him and he wouldn't put his resources at risk. But Nikki wanted to get married, so he gave in and proposed to her. Then she started crying because she would never get to be a mom, so he changed his mind again and said he wanted to put a baby in her. So she basically manipulated him into changing his goals all around to meet hers.

He's got plenty of money though, I don't see why he couldn't afford a kid or two. But the problem with these celebrities is they are earning peak money when they're hot, then later they get divorced and they're stuck paying huge settlements and child support, but they don't have the demand they once had. That happened to Hulk Hogan, he got stuck with a huge divorce settlement at a time when his wrestling career was over, he had hip replacement, and struggled while his ex-wife lived like a queen. Not a new story.
He's being a retarded behind Nikki. He was smart before. She doesn't seem like the type you can be nice to.
 

zekko

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Most of this frame stuff is bull****, I’ve seen highly alpha males get completely controlled by their wives.
They may or may not be alpha males, but if they are being completely controlled by their wives, they definitely don't have frame. By definition.
Honestly, from what I've observed of powerful men, I'm not sure if being "alpha" has anything at all to do with how they relate to their wives. That seems to be more a function of their individual personalities, how they relate as a couple, and how their marriage is set up.

Just as a partial example, a guy might be dominant but be a complete idiot when it comes to math. He might depend on his wife to handle the finances. I have a friend who is very impulsive, and he can't be trusted with the money. So his wife rations it out to him.

He's being a retarded behind Nikki. He was smart before. She doesn't seem like the type you can be nice to.
She seems like she must be insanely high maintenance.
To add to the list, he wanted to get married in his hometown and she got him to change it to Napa Valley because that was her "dream", to be married there. Nothing is allowed to get in the way of Nikki's dreams, and if John wants something it's characterized as him being selfish.
 

mrgoodstuff

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They may or may not be alpha males, but if they are being completely controlled by their wives, they definitely don't have frame. By definition.
Honestly, from what I've observed of powerful men, I'm not sure if being "alpha" has anything at all to do with how they relate to their wives. That seems to be more a function of their individual personalities, how they relate as a couple, and how their marriage is set up.

Just as a partial example, a guy might be dominant but be a complete idiot when it comes to math. He might depend on his wife to handle the finances. I have a friend who is very impulsive, and he can't be trusted with the money. So his wife rations it out to him.


She seems like she must be insanely high maintenance.
To add to the list, he wanted to get married in his hometown and she got him to change it to Napa Valley because that was her "dream", to be married there. Nothing is allowed to get in the way of Nikki's dreams, and if John wants something it's characterized as him being selfish.
That prenup was exactly right with someone like her. You can't even give her half an inch .
 

ohrein

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Most of this frame stuff is bull****, I’ve seen highly alpha males get completely controlled by their wives.
John Cena is alpha and yet he went on national television to say that he wants to give Nikki Bella a baby, even though he said for years he didn’t want one.
I don't see how either of these examples can be alpha then. If your view of alpha is simply physicality, then it's off. Alpha is primarily a mindset, and one in which frame is a key ingredient. Any man who significantly weakens his frame to please a woman is no longer alpha. He's operating from a place of weakness. Allowing yourself to be completely controlled is as beta as it gets.

It's not a very long time since women needed a man, but in that time they really did. Today many men think they need a woman, but they don't have any good reason to like the women in the past had. This need is entirely irrational and imaginary.
Exactly. Guys never ask themselves why they need a woman, they're just driven by sex. Sex is fun but it's a poor value to sacrifice yourself for.

Frame seems to be difficult to understand for many, but it is difficult to explain as it's so metaphysical. A frame can be defined many different ways, that's what many end up discussing. However a frame is as you say just to define boundaries, values and expectations. Keeping the frame is to not go against those definitions. The question of who's frame one is operating under is just to determine if one is keeping ones own boundaries, or just following the rules set by the other person. Sadly many of those boundaries get stretched and/or thrown away to keep and please a woman, many men don't even have a frame and can only follow hers. This will be at the expense of oneself, the frame was constructed for that precise reason, to protect oneself from harm (physically or emotionally).
Spot on. There has to be some give and take but if you're compromising on things that are important to you then you're operating from a place of insecurity. Frame is even more than just boundaries, values and expectations. It's who is defining them. That's what is important. If a woman is not actively engaging with your expectations and trying to please you then you are operating in her frame. I don't believe that dynamic can exist long term as women psychologically crave leadership. You must lead and frame is the grounding to that on a conceptual level, rather than just specific.

Game is a balance of being comfortable, fun and at the same time negotiating the terms with an interest in keeping ones own frame. Often it will simply be incompatible with the other person and fair terms cannot be negotiated, this is when it's most important to back out instead of let go of standards.
Game is a mastery of red pill knowledge. You're right in that incompatibility will always be an issue. In that case games become irrelevant and it's your conceptual understanding of game that matters. You won't settle.
 

The Diver

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Most of this frame stuff is bull****, I’ve seen highly alpha males get completely controlled by their wives.
Not BS at all.
A man who's controlled by his woman ,can't be called an alpha.
A real alpha will not be controlled by anyone,including their girls/wife.
Alpha may make a nonchalant calculation compromising, from a point of strength, (picking up smartly the war worth fighting for), but only if it's serves their needs.
Alpha have clear set of boundaries, values and expectations from his surrounding (his Frame) which defined him in society.
(Seen all the above first hand , and it's eyes opening)

Giving control to anyone over yourself,( co-worker, woman, family member,,,) is putting this person above and outside your boundaries, something alphe simply won't do.
 

stovepipe

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Not BS at all.
A man who's controlled by his woman ,can't be called an alpha.
A real alpha will not be controlled by anyone,including their girls/wife.
Alpha may make a nonchalant calculation compromising, from a point of strength, (picking up smartly the war worth fighting for), but only if it's serves their needs.
Alpha have clear set of boundaries, values and expectations from his surrounding (his Frame) which defined him in society.
(Seen all the above first hand , and it's eyes opening)

Giving control to anyone over yourself,( co-worker, woman, family member,,,) is putting this person above and outside your boundaries, something alphe simply won't do.
Spot on mate! There is a histrionic chick in my circle of friends that I've known for many years.

I always told myself if the women behind the mask ever treats the way I know she treats most is when I part ways.

She ended up showing her true side to me a while back. I immediately cut her out of my life. Being as my circle of friends is fairly large I knew I would constantly see her. A couple weeks ago she tried to talk to me like nothing happened (Typical Cluster B behavior). I told her "I do not tolerate bad behavior, nor do I allow anyone to "try" and manipulate me" and to never speak to me again in front of all our friends. Her face turned red as a cherry. The look of guilt, anger, fear and confusion was such a satisfying feeling. But I could also sense how she respected me for it, tho she will never admit it.

Do not let ANYONE try to control/manipulate you, ever! Stand up for yourself, don't be afraid to lose that person no matter how long you've known them. One painful lesson that took almost my whole life to truly understand is.." never forgive anyone for bad behavior". It only gives them a pass to do it again and again they most likely will.

I've cut 5 people out of my life in the past year that I've known for many years, some 20 years. While I went through a very tough period of feeling alone, I eventually became stronger as a result. At this point in my life, I know my value/worth. If you mistake my kindness for weakness or do me wrong, you're outta here forever! The universe will eventually replace those you removed with ones who are actually worth a ch!t and see your value/worth.
 

ChristopherColumbus

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I would sum up frame in one word - self-determination, and then refer readers to Nicomachean Ethics.:rolleyes:
 

ChristopherColumbus

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It's not a very long time since women needed a man, but in that time they really did. Today many men think they need a woman, but they don't have any good reason to like the women in the past had. This need is entirely irrational and imaginary.

Frame seems to be difficult to understand for many, but it is difficult to explain as it's so metaphysical. A frame can be defined many different ways, that's what many end up discussing. However a frame is as you say just to define boundaries, values and expectations. Keeping the frame is to not go against those definitions. The question of who's frame one is operating under is just to determine if one is keeping ones own boundaries, or just following the rules set by the other person. Sadly many of those boundaries get stretched and/or thrown away to keep and please a woman, many men don't even have a frame and can only follow hers. This will be at the expense of oneself, the frame was constructed for that precise reason, to protect oneself from harm (physically or emotionally).

Game is a balance of being comfortable, fun and at the same time negotiating the terms with an interest in keeping ones own frame. Often it will simply be incompatible with the other person and fair terms cannot be negotiated, this is when it's most important to back out instead of let go of standards.
I think the essential part of frame is education. Sadly, society today fails to educate men properly [they have to take it into their own hands] because it just wants a mass of dumbed down consumers... I think the whole porn thing is a part of this also... it keeps men weak... and needy/ thirsty for women.
 

Macaframalama

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Game is a mastery of red pill knowledge.
Not just red pill, but blue as well and having the ability to float the spectrum on a situational basis. Living on one side of the extreme is unbalanced and homeostasis/baseline should be neutral. It is nothing and everything at the same time. Your non-negotiable terms and principles are your baseline.
 
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Macaframalama

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A big part of blue pill conditioning is the underlying subconscious socio-cultural pressure that men are defined by the women they can attain. Guys who don't get laid are losers, guy's who have their pick of the litter are the heroes. To quote Tyler Durden, "You're not your fvcking khakis". This idea that a man's value can be measured by the woman he is with is feminine imperative conditioning. Let that sink in. You think you're hot sh1t because you get hot women? What you're saying is, "my value comes from the value of the women I can attract". Doesn't get much more beta than that.
Simulated masculinity. Procreation was much more important, than it is today. Also, success with women was much more of a byproduct of being the men that they were, than viewed as the end game they are today. There has always been the "trophy", Spoils mentality though. I can't think that women weren't somewhat in the equation, when guys like Napoleon, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, etc set out to conquer the world. It wasn't their main driving force however, because those men just wanted it all. I still think a trophy mentality is good, so long as it's seen as a byproduct of being the man you are and not the ultimate goal. Competition is never a bad thing and most of us will never have the opportunity to live out true alpha virtue in modern society, so simulated masculinity is the next best thing imo, trophy women included.
 
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ChristopherColumbus

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You could pose it this way - frame or game? I'd choose frame over game any day of the week.
 

Macaframalama

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You could pose it this way - frame or game? I'd choose frame over game any day of the week.
Why choose? Why not both? They are indistinguishable in my eyes anyways, because they make up the one being. If I absolutely had to define each, frame would be your unwavering principles and perception of self. Game is the method of operation, within that frame. If one changes, both change.
 

ChristopherColumbus

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Why choose? Why not both? They are indistinguishable in my eyes anyways, because they make up the one being. If I absolutely had to define each, frame would be your unwavering principles and perception of self. Game is the method of operation, within that frame. If one changes, both change.
I think there should be a hierarchy between them. If there is a conflict between game and frame, game defers to frame.... because life is about more than women.
 

BeExcellent

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I'm really pleased to see this thread and the ensuing discussion. I'll give a little perspective about a few statements and add my two cents below.

If a woman is not actively engaging with your expectations and trying to please you then you are operating in her frame. I don't believe that dynamic can exist long term as women psychologically crave leadership
This is correct with women who are feminine in nature. Dominating, masculine energy/ultra feminist women I would imagine become rather tiresome in short order so I am not including them (and a wise man weeds those types out quickly). The man's responsibility is one of leadership in a solid relationship. Without a man's leadership the relationship will naturally falter and fall away in time. I have a number of criteria that I require in relationship but it all boils down to two important questions. The answer to both must be an emphatic "yes" or the relationship will not last:

1. Do I desire him sexually?
2. Can he lead me?

That is really what it all comes down to. And a wise woman determines the answer to question 2 as the more important question. Why? Because there are more men out there who are sexually desirable as a stand alone feature if you will, than there are with this particular combination, that is leadership combined with allure. Leadership alone is not enough for a great relationship, desire is also paramount, you need both.

Men who only create desire without ability to lead may be used sexually only to be tossed aside in short order; men who exhibit only leadership will be either used or friend zoned. So it is necessary to have both desirability and leadership ability.

I don't see a huge distinction between game and frame, as @Macaframalama suggests. The two are intertwined. But I also agree that once an individual reaches a point of self-actualization that the game playing aspects of game (when do I text her, what or how much do I say, how do I kiss close, etc) falls away and the individual behaves from a place of centeredness and groundedness and a perspective of DGAF that manifests thusly:

DGAF (Don't Give A F*ck)

"If you are unhappy with me or some aspect of the relationship from which I am unwilling to waver based on my internal standards...if you are dissatisfied with me in some way...move along. You are free to go."

This is a willingness to release people who are not complimentary or positive or compatible with your life.

My father (extremely alpha) taught me about opportunity costs. One of the ways opportunity costs apply in dating has to do with time. If you are with someone who isn't a good fit with your goals (whatever those are, whether short or long term) and isn't a good fit with your sexual strategy, then you are wasting time and you are blocking yourself from someone else who might be much better suited to you. You in essence are c*ck blocking yourself. But many men operate from a place of such scarcity that they cling to what they have at present out of fear and desperation and refuse to release a sub-optimal relationship.

Good game gives you opportunity in the marketplace and how you interact with others. Frame is the way in which you exist in the marketplace but more importantly in relationship independent of the marketplace. For this reason game can get rusty if a person is out of the marketplace for a while. Frame never rests. It is the foundation and the structure upon which your life and your relationships (STARTING WITH YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOURSELF) is built.

I agree that game and frame are complimentary. It is best to have both. I further think that in a good relationship the man's frame and the woman's frame necessarily complement each other. The man should lead more often than not, the woman should defer more often than not - but there is a flux between the masculine & feminine polarities that should be welcomed and expected in an LTR. If a man is too dictatorial for example, he will breed contempt in his partner. Contempt is bad. But that is another discussion entirely.
 
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