jump training

[FunnyCide]

I just measured my vertical and it's an meager 27 inches I'm hoping to break 30 by the end. Let's see if it'll work.

 

[Phrozen]

Don't do plyos unless you have a good base of strength already. Most people have told me you should be squatting 1.5x to 2x your bodyweight before beginning plyometric training.

Use this program, its the only one I've seen with a genuine concern for safety that aims to create overall explosiveness ability.

http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=24

All those 12 week programs are bull**** or incomplete. I don't know why people believe **** like "Jump 7 to 8 inches higher in just weeks." Its the same as saying "Increase your bench 100 lbs in just a 12 weeks."

 

[FunnyCide]

Injury report

I knew this was coming up some time cause it's been a while since my last injury. I was diving for a loose ball and didn't quite judge it right and l knocked my knee pretty hard on the court. Does anyone know the consequences of dropping a program like this for a couple weeks then picking it back up? In any case, I think I'll be doing some low impact cardio to keep my legs in shape for the meantime.

Interestingly, I felt light last night till I got injured. I could grab on to the rim a little bit more. I think my initial gains are due to the stretching that has become an crutial part of my gym routine now. I've included about 20 minutes of stretching (mostly legs) with every gym day which I never used to do.

Phrozen, I checked out your program and it's not bad but I do those exercises through my regular workout already with the exception of the power clean. I also have the base strength requirements that the site suggests so I think I'll be fine with injuries. I'm considering this injury unrelated to the plyos since it's from a hard impact and not due to overtraining.

once again thanks for the input

 

[sfalexi]

A couple exercises I used to do (I also needed to gain jumping due to PT tests and that damned standing long jump section) worked out very well. Here's what I did that worked pretty well.

Find a nice open set of stairs somewhere in town with at least a VERY high ceiling. Jump from the floor at the bottom to the fourth stair. if you can make that, aim for the fifth. Then the sixth, etc. etc. When you find your 'max' stair, do that a couple times a day.

A very common exercise for basketball players is to find a building with bricks on the side of a wall. Pick a brick high above your head, stand next to the wall, jump and touch it. Over and over and over. Reps of 20. Pick a HIGH brick. After a few days, see if you can reach the one above 20 times. You get the idea.

A nice tip I got from a mountain biking forum for some explosive leg power is to jump up from the ground onto a picnic table over and over again (very similar to the stair thing, but it's more vertical and less horizontal). Or to set up two tables next to each other, start on one, jump to the ground and immediately pop up onto the second.

Hope these work for you. They did for me (at 5'4" I could stand still and jump ******ds 8'4". Almost the 'max' allowed by the PT test)

 

[madgame]

@funnycide: How much do you weigh and how much lbs can you squat (in case you do squats..)? and how did you measure your vertical?(just wondering)

@Phrozen: I think you can probably gain a couple of (a few) inches in like 12 weeks if you start doing a plyometric program and have never ever done that before...but you're right 7 to 8 inches is probably bull****, when I start a plyometric program Ill be happy if I can gain like up to 4 inches on my vertical (no matter whether it takes 12 weeks or 12 months..or maybe even longer till I peak). Ive never tried one those programs, but if NCAA players verticals are in a range of 27-31 inches and most NBA players is between 28-34 inches (and 33 or 34 or osmething like that is PRETTY high actually, if a player like dwyane wade has a reported vertical of 35 inches...) and the average person could gain 7-8 inches on their vertical with a 12 week program a vertical leap of above 30 inches wouldnt really be that great....

 

[FunnyCide]

Update...Injury is slowly going away but in the meantime I'm still hitting the gym just skipping the leg workout. Still playing ball about 5 times a week and hurt my wrist tonite during ball. I was about to block this guy then hit my hand on the backboard...bad move but our team went on a 2 hour winning streak with no subs. Played some of the best ball in the recent weeks.

Anyways, I measured my vert by first measuring the absolute highest I can reach (95 inches). Then I stand below the rim and jump as high as I can. Consistently, I can touch about two inches above the rim. 10ft 2in = 122 inches then take away 95 inches = 27 inches. It's pretty close. Before starting the plyo and stretching routine I could just barely touch the rim.

I've never done a max squat but I regularly do 210 at 8 reps and have done 245 at 4 reps as my max once. I know that there are ways to estimate through that but I don't know them. If anyone does let me know. I'm 6 foot one and weigh about 195 lbs.

Note on the 12 week program comments: Yeah their promises are probably bullsh!t like most commercial promises in the world but that doesn't take away from how good the exercises are. They are still good to do for gaining vert.

 

[madgame]

If you're 195lbs and squat 245 for 4 reps you should (almost?) be able to squat 1.5 times your body weight..I was just wondering but sounds like u have a solid (lower-body) strength base. I still dont and thats why I havent started a plyometric program yet.

I measured my vertical pretty much the same way you do. I can touch 4 inches above the rim (I know that because I can hit the rim with a spot on my hand...also known as my knuckles ;-)) if I jump from a standing position). I dont remember all the figures but that translated into a vertical of 28 inches. But when I do a regular vertical leap test (thats the way verticals are usually tested - if they are tested properly), where I stand next to a wall jump as high as I can and try to mark a spot at the wall with my fingertips on which i had put chalk before I havent gotten a vertical higher than 25 inches. I first wondered why, but then I realized it. Try this at home without doing a vertical leap if you dont understand why:
----
Bend your knees (if necessary) so you can barely reach the top of the room's ceiling with your fingertips and really grab as high as possible (and bend ur knees a bit further if you can touch the ceiling easily)...you should be in a squatting or a standing position in which u can BARELY touch the ceiling..I hope you get the idea lol..besides u need to find a room where the ceiling isnt too damn high of course and you should do that standing next to a wall!

Now remain exactly in this position and touch the wall next to which you are standing (dont cheat yourself and leave some room for your arms between you and the wall so you could swing them up in case u did jump).. Youll realize that youll only be able to touch the wall at a spot which is like 3 inches lower.
----

Actually my standing vertical leap IS 28 inches, but on a vertical leap test Id only have around 25 inches...and I think thats how verticals are taken (in case they are taken properly...). but the thing is when u read about nba players verticals in magazines or on the net you never know if they are talking about standing verticals or running verticals...which they took "properly" or just "estimated" by how high they can touch the backboard...but I think that when coaches say that most NCAA players verticals are in a range of 27 to 31 inches they mean their verticals measured at a wall with some chalk..or NBA players verticals in a range of 28 to 34 inches for that matter

Just my 2 cents on measuring your vertical ;-)

Anyways I hope your injury will heal up soon so u can go at it again

 

[Oni]

Originally posted by madgame

Just wondering though. How did you calculate your vert? Are you talking standing vert? And did you calculate by measuring the distance between your fingertips and how high u can touch the backboard/rim or something? Cause if I jump flatfooded without any running start at all I can touch the rim with my knuckles (those which are closest to the wrists) or well in otherwords i can "punch" the rim ..that would be an 28 standing vertical but if I measure it on a wall by jumping and touching the wall as high as I can its only a 25 vertical...and my running vertical is like 32 inches.

If u got a standing vertical (measured at a wall) of 35 inches, your vertical is as high as the one of dwyane wade..your running vert would be about 42 inches and you would only be 4 inches short of being able to touch the rim with your head.

Dont mean to diss ya, but I think most ppl probably measure their running verticals (or measure wrong or whateva) when they say they have verticals high in the 30s when in the NCAA I for example most players verticals are between 27 and 31 inches.
(Most NBA Players are between 28 and 34 if what i read is right).

So just wondering, maybe your hops are really that crazy but u were probably talking running vert right?

ya, that's my running vert. my standing vert is 28". Although it got lower eversince i started powerlifting w/o any sort of plyos.

FunnyCide: my opinion in these 12 week programs is that they aren't as well as others.

 

[FunnyCide]

Madgame, When I was measuring my reach, I reached as high as I could with my right hand and jumped with right hand reaching for the rim. I think you're saying that your reach decreases if you're measuring with both hands extended as high as you can. I can definitely see that but I'm not sure if that's what you mean.

I always thought that NBA player had higher verts but that probably because they're so tall that they don't need to jump as high as us regular folk...lol

Keep workin on your squats and you'll get the base strength soon.

Oni, I'm not really looking for the gains the 12 week program promises but looking more at the exercises that they use to increase vert. Most of the programs I've looked at have the same 6 - 7 exercises that's in my program. I've added a couple more that I like and sort of created my own. I use those 6 - 7 specific exercises as the core since most plyo programs use them I assume they are the best ones. These programs are much like the DJ bible, they point you in the right direction but you have to figure out what works for you the best.

Guys, once again thanks for the input...

 

[myfriendblu]

Hey funny,
I went threw a similar jump program as you, albiet a little modified but basically the same in nature. I did it all summer for about three months. I shaved off .2 seconds from my 40 and gained 6 inches in my vertical. Just like you, I didn't notice any results in my first month except that I felt "lighter" on my feet. I didn't have any numerical progress until the 2nd and 3rd month. Not to mention my calves got a hell of alot more muscular. I went from a 4.89 to a 4.69 40 and went from 30 vertical to 36.

One thing was that was holding me back was lifting weights. Maybe due to overtraining or maybe interfering with muscle development or fast twitch muscle improvement, who knows, but I seen RAPID results when i did the program only and quit working out.

Not only that, but by the 3rd month in I had lost about 10 lbs. Im sure that helped tremendously....

 

[madgame]

@Funny: Nooo..thats not what I meant..I just didnt know how to explain it properly I guess lol (especially as english isnt my mother tongue). I have a standing vertical of 28 inches if I measure it the way you do.

Try and measure your (standing) vertical the way coaches usually do - by putting some chalk on the finger tip of the player's middle finger, having him stand (sideways) next to a wall and make a mark on the wall as high as possible with that finger tip (and the arm extended); and then (still standing next to the wall) the player is supposed to jump as high as he can and make another chalk mark on that wall as high as possible (after jumping as high as he can u get it?).

The difference is the height of your "vertical leap" of course.

If I do it that way (and as far as I know..and have read..thats the way a proper vertical leap test is done) my vert is only around 25 inches...a good 3 inches lower than the 28inches if I measure it your way! and that is because you cant reach only upwards but have to reach a little to the side to touch the wall too...which does in fact "lower" your vertical by a few inches.

Actually your way determines your REAL vertical leaping height; but just in case you wanna compare yourself to other people (who took their verts with a coach) or to those numbers of NCAA or NBA players' verticals you should know that your "vert" is a good 3 inches less high than you thought it is. But if u have a natural vert of 24 or 25 inches, you still have what it takes to reach the 30 inches barrier I bet lol...thats my goal too btw

P.S.: Actually Speed is more important to me than jumping ability, but you improve your vertical pretty much the same way you increase your speed (by upping your maximum strength (to a certain level), getting a real low bf percentage and plyometrics of course)...and the vertical leap shows whos quick and whos not also. (All players who are quick (take iverson for example) can jump high...though it might vary depending on some other things like weight..if 2 ppl have the same 40(?)yard dash time for example and one of them has a lot more muscle than the other guy he wont be able to jump as high as him...big muscles dont seem to stop the top notch sprinters from winning titles (dwayne chambers is an extrem example of a bulky sprinter i guess)...high jumpers are usually scrawny than a mot********* though lol

Just my 2000 cents or so on jumping and quickness in basketball ;-)

 

[Oni]

i think this is how speed is related to vert:

More speed = More Force
More Force = More Force Absorbed at takeoff
More force absorbed = More Power
More Power = More height

 

[madgame]

well or in other words a quick first step depends on your "explosiveness" just like your vertical leap. Anyways maybe there's a little difference between the two, but basically the quicker you are the higher youll be able to jump and vice versa...youll never see a player whos slow on his feet but has an amazing vertical and youll never see a player who does 360 windmill dunks at 5'6 but is slow

 

[FunnyCide]

Good stuff blu, that'll keep on track for longer when I stop seeing the immediate results.

I get what you mean now madgame. I definitly see how you lose a couple of inches on that. I think the unofficial way i do it seems to measure more accurately. I 've seen dunk competitions on TV where they have vertical measurement thing on the TV screen and they use comps and what not to measure the difference between the guy's standing height and the height his head reaches at the top of his jump. 40 + inches is what usually comes out and that is just incredible atheletic ability.

There's no doubt that speed and jumping ability goes hand in hand. Look at the most explosive players I the NBA and they're the ones throwing down the biggest dunks. Lebron, Mcgrady, Kobe, Wade, Francis... just to name a few in their exclusive class.

I hope that this plyo (when I get started again next week )
will also improve my quickness but I'm only going to work on one aspect at a time. For now it's jumping.

I think another important part of the ball game that is underrated in my opinion is the Mental Game. It's so easy to get sidetracked when you miss a couple of shots and lose your confidence. I've been trying to stop thinking in games just let my training take over. Trust that you've done your home work and focus on reacting to the game rather then how you should adjust your shooting to make that next shot. I'm trying to say that when you're playing really good ball, you don't think but you seem to be a split second ahead of every one else, knowing what they're going to do and beating them to it, that's the sort of "flow" that I would like to bring out of myself in every game. I not sure if that explains what I mean but it's kind of a abstract concept to grasp unless you've thought about it already.

Anyways, there my rant on Ball theory and let me know what you think about it.

 

[myfriendblu]

Originally posted by madgame
well or in other words a quick first step depends on your "explosiveness" just like your vertical leap. Anyways maybe there's a little difference between the two, but basically the quicker you are the higher youll be able to jump and vice versa...youll never see a player whos slow on his feet but has an amazing vertical and youll never see a player who does 360 windmill dunks at 5'6 but is slow

Not necessarily madgame, its a complicated thing. I would be willing to bet that maurice green, worlds fastest man, probably can't jump that high. He is pretty heavy for his height and has extremely thick thighs, I would be willing to bet his vertical is in the 30's range, great but nothing spectacular.

And A LOT of pro basketball players that are great jumpers are not that fast at all. At a 4.6 40 I could probably outrun Kobe and Lebron no problem in a sprint. Thats why all the Olympic track sprinters are usually shorter people, anywhere from 5'8 -6'2 at the tallest. Height and leg length can definitely negatively affect sprinting ability, big time. The girl from the USA that won silver medal in the sprint at this years olympics was 5'2. Im not exactly sure how tall maurice green is but Im guessing around 5'10 at the most.....

You see often basketball players are reasonably quick just because they are light and aren't carrying around anybodyfat at all. I can remember when I recently lost just 10lbs and the effect on my speed is dramatic. Take a guy like Kobe who isn't that fast, but consider the fact he is at probably 6 percent bodyfat at most and that he isn't carrying around any unnecessary weight, so he is gonna be pretty quick but nothing spectacular, due to his disadvantage in height.

 

[madgame]

Not necessarily madgame, its a complicated thing. I would be willing to bet that maurice green, worlds fastest man, probably can't jump that high. He is pretty heavy for his height and has extremely thick thighs, I would be willing to bet his vertical is in the 30's range, great but nothing spectacular.

Yeah I think so too. I bet he has a standing vertical (measured the way I "suggested" earlier) of definetly over 30 inches (you didnt say anything else actually), but hes definetly more muscular than the average nba player and if he lost like 15-20 lbs he would have an exceptional vertical in my opinion. Actually his vertical might even be way over 30 inches at his current height already, but all we can do here is guess...

And A LOT of pro basketball players that are great jumpers are not that fast at all. At a 4.6 40 I could probably outrun Kobe and Lebron no problem in a sprint.

Im pretty damn sure you couldnt. Lebron and Kobe are some of the quickest players in the NBA.

Thats why all the Olympic track sprinters are usually shorter people, anywhere from 5'8 -6'2 at the tallest. Height and leg length can definitely negatively affect sprinting ability, big time.

From what I know olympic track sprinters are just averagely tall people. I think I've seen some top notch sprinters on tv (at the olympics for example) who were 6'3 6'4...and I guess that the main reason most sprinters are of average height (Im sure its wrong to say they are usually "small" compared to average ppl, not nba players) is that being tall is just not an advantage in sprinting..so its just way more likely that a sprinter is 6 foot tall than being 6'8 because theres a **** load of 6 foot tall ppl out there but only few ppl are as tall as the guys in the NBA.

Anyways I cant really say anything on that, maybe having extremely long legs does make you a less good sprinter. On one hand your stride length is longer on the other hand it takes u longer to make a stride....I guess wed have to go deeper into physics in order to find that out...I think youre right though when u say being 7 foot tall will make u a less good sprinter.

But I'm really sure that lebron james and kobe have top notch 40yard times. Ever seen Lebron blow by a defender in a lightning quick motion? I think hes one of the fastest guys in the NBA (though other smaller guys who arent as quick as him might be able to execute a change of direction faster than him...but damn lebron and kobe r still lightning quick!)

On the other hand dwyane wade is said to have a less high vertical than kobe and lebron (though 35 inches is still crazy high) but might be quicker than them....

Actually that wasnt my point at all. I was just trying to say that if YOU as a individual get quicker youll be able to jump higher and the other way around (if your weight and height remain the same..which I assumed), because in both cases you need explosiveness...and for that statement it doesnt matter at all how tall you are...

(you might be right that a giant will be less likely to be a good sprinter because of his ratio of stride length / time to take a stride....but wed need to consult a scientist to tell us for sure ;-))

peace

p.s.: this wasnt supposed to be a flame or anythign (just in case it sounded like one)

 

[FunnyCide]

I agree with Madgame, Blu can't outrun kobe in a 40 dash. If you remember the beginning of this season there was a highlight of kobe turning over the ball in the paint on laker's end of the court and the opposing team had a long pass to a shorter ("faster") point guard just past midcourt and kobe just stretched his stride and caught up with the man who had a half court head start and blocked him.

NBA players are tall but at the same time they can move their legs faster than any regular athelete. With the exception of sprinters and others built purely for speed. They have extrodinary length which allows them to cover more ground thus be exceptionally fast. I think in the previous example Kobe took maybe 4 to 5 steps to catch up to the player.

Anyways, my point is that length of your legs goes a long way in your speed and jumping ability.

 

[myfriendblu]

Im gonna disagree with you both and say that both Kobe and Lebron are both not that fast sprint wise at all......maybe compared to other 6'9 and 6'10 basketball players, but put them next to a 5'9 devensive back and they would get smoked....There is a reason why you rarely see a NFL defensive back above 6ft. And I can not ever remember a guy above 6'2 that has ever won a gold medal for the 100 yard dash. Shorter, powerfull legs are a huge advantage. If you also look alot of the fast quarterbacks in the league are also shorter. Mike Vick is only 6'2, same with Aaron Brooks (2nd fastest QB, he plays for the saints). Mcmahon (3rd fastest, backup for Lions) is also 6'2. I will tell you right now - Kobe is lucky if he runs a low 4.6, and that is being generous. Yes, he is got a tremendous first step, but I would be Allen Iverson, at 6ft, would SMOKE him in a race. it wouldn't even be a race. he could probably beat Lebron running backwards if he wanted too.

 

[FunnyCide]

Kobe Bryant - 6'6 222lbs
Lebron James - 6'8 240lbs

I found some stats and Kobe 36' vert and Lebron 44' vert. Those are insane numbers.

To clarify, I didn't mean to say that Kobe and Lebron were faster than olympic sprinters or NfL defensive backs /Wide receivers. i just meant they were faster than blu. I'm sure Randy Moss could beat Kobe / King James in a sprint but that's because Moss(who also played ball) is built more for sprinting while Kobe / Lebron are built for quick change of speed and direction. I find it hard to compare the two but I'll say that different atheletes are built for different things.

As for the Kobe vs Iverson question, Iverson is blazing fast that's his bread and butter. But bball doesn't end there, I think that one on one if iverson beat kobe on a drive, he'd still be worried about kobe jumping over him for the block. I'd love to see the best players in the NBA play one on one with each other and duke it out or enter in some sort of physical challenge but until then we'll probably never be able to truely solve this.

So I say let's agree to disagree. BTW I'm pretty sure we might be arguing different points anyways important points usually get lost when you're typing in a forum and not speaking to someone face to face. All in all a good discussion.

 

[Alpine]

I saw a documentary on Jonathon Edwards. There seemed a lot of emphasis on power clean singles. And he was quite good.