Is self-improvement really all that necessary?

[CornbreadFed]

If you want to get laid as much as possible.... Absolutely Not and self-improvement will actually your sex life harder unless you break past a certain point which most men will not break unfortunately.

1). Simple Math- Deplorable men have the largest dating pool in the market. Kevin & Ray Ray can bag unemployed women, the working class, lower-level white collar workers, some college kids, and etc. Meanwhile your dating pool will be limited because why would a guy in Med School be wasting time with a pot head girl working at Burger King or Chilis?

2). Self-Improvement shields you from toxic women & the repercussions- Kevin & Ray Ray might have it great, but they will end up with STDs, kids out of wedlock, unstable finances, unstable employment, a lot of alimony, possible jail sentences, and etc. You might not get the baddest girls through self-improvement, but you will definitely put up with less bullshvt.

 

[RangerMIke]

Is self-improvement a must? No.

But self-improvement is the best way to increase the number of quality women that might be interested in you.

 

[jhonny9546]

Being social, having conversational skills, being able to read and interpret body language, being able to "read the room," knowing when to escalate, knowing if she's genuinely into you or just being polite, etc.

I would simply embrace "being social." While it's beneficial to pick up on body language and interest cues, focusing too much on external factors, like her or others in the room, can disrupt my inner focus. This is why many guys pursue self-improvement with sex as a goal, which isn't ideal. And they'll show neediness.

This is a subjective view I've developed. Instead of "self-improvement" aimed at external validation, focusing on your inner desires can lead to greater happiness. Few things in life genuinely make you happy.

From my perspective, after achieving a sense of well-being and being content with who you are, in your innerself, you begin to see society through your lens and question mainstream norms like marriage, corporate jobs, and home ownership, etc..

@BackInTheGame78 (This is connected to what you said in your 3 point)

In different cultures, certain traits can signal "being grown up" or that this person became "adult".
You can still look 10/10, but if you don't have those things, you'll never be seen like an adult, but a child instead. This is in my culture. I don't know about yours.
These include:

- Owning a house (preferably independent)
- Driving a good-looking car (not necessarily luxury)
- Having a ministerial job or running your own business
- Having children
- Being in a committed relationship (ideally marriage, regardless of personal issues, just keep that "happy family" public image)
- Holding power: not only money, but such as being someone others seek help from. (help=favours like placing someone into a job position).
- Building genuine connections rather than just networking
- Showing kindness while maintaining boundaries and an IDGAF attitude when necessary

Those things will make a 10/10 men, in the top 1% in my city.
If you remove some of them, again, you can be 10/10, but you'll not be seen as a high value.
This is called "Buon Partito".

You will naturally start displaying things and acting in ways that are attractive to women as you start moving higher and higher on that scale. It may not make sense to you but that's how it works.

This

out of her league.

I've never understood this.
I think women will send you signals 100% even tho if your "out of her league"
Then, it's your choice

 

[justaroundthecorner]

Self improvement is overrated.

It is to give you the additional tools to increase the probability of success in various fields in your life.

However inherited money, connections and "genetical" luck (being handsome) will usually top any effects of self-development unless they are very serious (like building solid career or own connections).

Most of guys however do not have enough time or resources or both to raise their SMV to the desired values - even if you will acquire money by hard work, it shall be usually at the stage where your dating pool is limited (i.e. you will be considered a financial prospect by 18-25 year old women, not necessarily the partner as 90% females would prefer to not go to bed with older guys).

Therefore nothing beats being money-loaded Golden boy im college. I have met a lot of such guys - they were always rather superficial and most of them under educated but they dated more attractive females than I did (and more of them).

Even if you are fugly, if you have money, dating should be rather easy if you possess the ability to lead during date front start to finish.

Therefore inherited SMV > selfdevelopment.

Self development is for normies.

 

[jhonny9546]

@justaroundthecorner

This is what makes me say that these people have nothing special and were born "lucky".
But this is what makes me say, if they are nothing special, and with a butcher shop that sells local meat, they earn 400k net, why should I stay in my specialized job at 30k net, while I could invest, open a butcher shop, and make 400k net or more??

I mean, why keep doing difficult and professional things, when those people who get out of school at 15y.o. to work in their shops, are making 10x than me who studied till 30 y.o?

 

[Manure Spherian]

Look harder: It's not just men who are guilty of doing so, and I'm far from the first to notice

This is all further exacerbated by MGTOWs like this admitted and 8th rate ripoff of Tom Leykis(who altered his physical appearance so as to resemble TL more closely. All while claiming to not care what anyone thinks about him)

13:30-18:40 instilling in many fellas a corrosive mindset("Promoting self-care among men-Including being mindful of the way we look when we walk out of the house-is catering to Gynocentrism!!!")which has benefltted men even less than Andrea Dworkin and Co's counsel("Cease shaving your underarms, pack on the pounds, and embrace free bleeding!!! Doing otherwise is upholding The Patriarchy")benefitted women during The late 1960s and 1970s



MRAs, MGTOWs, and Feminists alike encourage their respective congregations to drag out their adolescence indefinitely, all while asserting "Society hates and was set up to oppress you"... If that's the case, it's even MORE imperative that we stop leaving ourselves vulnerable, by remaining children for life

As we've discussed elsewhere here on SS: One has to wonder if MeToo and the like would've gained traction, if so many of us didn't really embody the stereotypes about men that were already noticeable back in The 2000s https://slate.com/human-interest/20...pping-up-in-tv-and-movies-like-greenberg.html


"It is. That goes for all of our major institutions"

Buzzwords and jargon(Whether it's Woke Gobbeldygook like "White CIS Heteronormative Ableist Patriarchy", or Manosphere claptrap like "Gynocentrism")do possess a demented ingenuity: By not really meaning of anything, their users can hurl them at just about anything, and always APPEAR correct

I saw that video with Shah and Paul Elam and think it’s great. I some things to say about your post, but won’t be at a desktop I can use for this site until tonight. So I will try to respond tomorrow.

 

[Manure Spherian]

Buzzwords and jargon(Whether it's Woke Gobbeldygook like "White CIS Heteronormative Ableist Patriarchy", or Manosphere claptrap like "Gynocentrism")do possess a demented ingenuity: By not really meaning of anything, their users can hurl them at just about anything, and always APPEAR correct

1. America is gynocentric. 2. Misandry is widespread.

 

[Solomon]

Being social, having conversational skills, being able to read and interpret body language, being able to "read the room," knowing when to escalate, knowing if she's genuinely into you or just being polite, etc.

^^This is 100% spot on, the overall post is, but this right here is what a lot of women seem to be missing in 2025. Hate old school "PUA" all you want but that part of the schtick they actually got right

 

[RangerMIke]

I've never understood this.
I think women will send you signals 100% even tho if your "out of her league"
Then, it's your choice

I agree. Very few women I've known in my life will not make a run at a man because they think he is better than them. Quite the opposite in fact, they usually try a little harder, but they will stop the minute you do not reciprocate. They open the door wide, but if you don't walk in... the door closes really fast.

 

[Travel memoir21]

You got the right idea, but in the wrong frame.


This is 100% wrong. The only person you need to be a servant (a plow horse) is only to YOU and nobody else. Sacrifices for other people are not valued, they are expected, people are entitled. This is like saying lit yourself on fire to keep others warm. This is may be the reason you don't have women. Nobody gives a $hit about your sacrifices, this is just for your ego, so you can think you are a "good person"



Why would I feel the need to do all of that? What am I gonna gain? This is a cover contract, f I do this I will gain this. I assume you do that, then why are you not swiming in puzzy? Why are you gonna go and walk your dog instead of fvcking a girl today?

The only person you need to help and must be a servant is to you (except your children), you and yourself alone are the only person who wipes his ass every time. Before you go there and be a "servant to people and worshipping whatever magic wizard you wanna worship" make sure you are getting what you want in live and love, otherwise, you are just coping.

Ahhhh….I think you maybe suffering from ‘ The Han Solo’ Syndrome my friend. A ****y charasmatic, young smuggler who was all about himself until he met and bonded with a people he cared about and found fulfillment in pursuing a Noble cause other than himself.


Look at the experience Veterans on this site for example, they don’t need to be here. But a lot of them are here to HELP a newbie or an inexperienced Young man with relationships problems or some social skills problem he may have. That’s a Noble cause within itself. Now put that in another category, could be homelessness, helping out broken Military Veterans, providing comfort to the depressed, etc. I urge you to pick a cause that is personal and noble to you and help out the best way you can.


Tony Robbins even stated it, that’s one of the keys to fulfillment, being a Servant. You are a Servant at the end of the day, for we are like Dust in the wind at the end of our life.


The one primary source and bliss you should be getting your contentment from is your Creator and the actions you do from attaining that bliss and wisdom. Everything else that is luxurious after that is Women. It’s been stated in many Relevant Scriptures, Paul stated it is better for a Man to remain chaste and not marry so he wouldn’t care for the pleasures of this world, only after God or Yeshua. In The Bhagavadgita, A Man only marries after Brahmacarya or Spiritual education and if he can’t control his urges, they offer him a QUALITY woman from a local village.


So judging from your writing you are after Conquest and not finding a Godly, fulfilling relationship that would lead to contentment and Peace. So I urge you my friend, to seek Yeshua and work on your spiritual life and purify your thoughts.


It’s okay to date. But Quality women my friend, not some random Ho Bag. Eat your Vegetables and drink your Milk, stop chowing down on those Mickey Ds lol.

 

[BaronOfHair]

1. America is gynocentric

And if one is a die-hard feminist, America is White CIS heteronormative patriarchy... There's no shortage of facts and half-truths one can take out of context to "prove" religious beliefs like this to be unassailable "truths"

 

[soulforge]

too many variables and pieces to unpack

But self improvement will just improve your odds. Doesn't guarantee anything. But if someone is struggling, it's just the obvious first step (improve body, improve fashion, make more money, meet more people)

And of course there are people who break lots of the rules (although they will have other things that mode than compensate - e.g the chad who has achieved absolutely nothing, unemployed etc but all the girls want him etc)

and it's also about the women you attract. Like, here in the UK there are lots of 'bad boys'/'chavs' who certainly DON'T have their lives together and have no education or job or their own place etc BUT they are always banging girls. Sometimes even very pretty, young ones. But these girls are also broken/similar (e.g very bad if it's an actual 'relationship' you want. You really wouldn't want one as a girlfriend!). It's almost like a secret club and if you are not also a guy from the same council estate who's always in prison, she won't be interested in you lol.

In the UK chavs, attract chavs.

Yeh most of them walking around in a track suit, white socks, unemployed and still got a young girlfriend.

However most these girls are from broken homes, likely been ran through already, have bad habits such as drinking and weed.

It's better to self improve for yourself, not just for girls.

 

[maturin]

I saw that video with Shah and Paul Elam and think it’s great. I some things to say about your post, but won’t be at a desktop I can use for this site until tonight. So I will try to respond tomorrow.

Elam demolished Romantic Courtly Love like no other. He has some top videos and essays on this mind virus. Also appreciate how he goes after the trad cons and rightfully notes how BP they are. Those trad cons are dangerous and reminiscent of our predecessors who got us into this mess.

 

[BaronOfHair]

Elam demolished Romantic Courtly Love like no other

And this isn't even remotely original: Reference everyone from Ben Franklin, to HL Mencken, to John Updike, to Patrice O'Neal, to Bobby Slayton's, sage observations on the subject. Elam(a married man for over 20 years, who's been preaching the gospel of MGTOW to his flock, ever since jettisoning out of obscurity and into 17 minutes of fame during the mid-10s)himself admits that he pretty much ripped off Tom Leykis's entire act

 

[RangerMIke]

Not necessary true, women like a challenge, maybe the door stays open and they try to push you to go in. Have you ever rejected a chick you don't like for them just keep trying harder to get your affection? The only ones will be closed really fast are the ones who sees you as having no confidence to walk in.

Have I ever rejected a woman, only to have her keep trying? Nope, never happened to me... they usually just move on. Now do women drift back over time when we lose contact... sure, that happens quite a bit, but it usually takes a few months at least when something in her life goes sideways. So I will revise my statement and say:

"If a woman opens the door, and you do not walk in... that door closes pretty fast... however, she might open that door again, at a much later date, and if that happens it's not anything you did, but something going on with her. The man has no control of if and when this might happen."

 

[SW15]

if you will acquire money by hard work, it shall be usually at the stage where your dating pool is limited (i.e. you will be considered a financial prospect by 18-25 year old women, not necessarily the partner as 90% females would prefer to not go to bed with older guys).

inherited money

In both of these situations, money will only make a difference with women close to the man's own age.

Acquiring money by hard work involves either getting promotions in the white collar working world (typically after age 35 to 40), becoming successful as a blue collar tradesman (typically an owner/manager type), or having a successful white collar type startup (usually after 35-40 after some white collar corporate work). In those types, many of those guys end up as beta bucks types. The tradesman who owns the trade business (ex. something like a plumbing or construction company) is most likely to have the most masculine energy.

Inherited money typically happens when parents die and the male is already 35-40+. He's going to be more interesting to women 18-25 mostly because of money. Money/possessions can help get a pussie wet.

The effect of money when under 30 isn't that great for a male. Occasionally, there are guys under 30 who come from family money but have few accomplishments on their own. There are guys on various college campuses who are 18 to mid-20s (undergrads and some grad level students) driving around in luxury brand cars that came from their parents' money. There are guys with bachelor's degrees in their 20s who have unimpressive entry level jobs but have above average brand cars. This might help them with getting pussie to some degree but they better be good looking too if they have that BMW or Porsche.

 

[Barrister]

I guess it’s a fair question. I know plenty of men without a job, look like sh1t, have no prospects, smoke and booze nonstop on their “disability” check, and are with an equally pathetic quality woman who they many times have 2-3 kids with that they can’t adequately support and who are destined to usually repeat their own parents’ sad cycle.

So no - if you just want sex you can find some lowlife somewhere to have it with - probably sub HB 4 range. But if you want decent to great women, yes it’s necessary. But women are a footnote in WHY you do the self-improvement. Which is shockingly something more and more men here seem not to grasp. You do this for yourself and YOUR life. Better quality women are just one of the fruits of those labors but can’t (and shouldn’t) be the goal.

 

[maturin]

women are a footnote in WHY you do the self-improvement. Which is shockingly something more and more men here seem not to grasp. You do this for yourself and YOUR life.

Couldn't agree more. If a guy is satisfied with being a local townie with the local losers then fk the self improvement. A bit of a chip on the shoulder when your in your 20s doesn't hurt either. I'm not nearly as pizzed at 62 than I was at 22. The anger can be a positive drive.

The build it and they will come solution seems to support female' parasitic nature. Basically good old fashioned pay to play kind of like the oldest profession. Of course its couched in noble language, like men have a need to provide. And this is what a real man does. But these build yourself up types appear to be paying out the nose for the privilege of a romantic relationship.

It made me kind of sick witnessing this first hand when my biz took off in my 30s. In fact i wanted nothing to do with women like this. The strategy seems to be, build yourself up then give it away or trade it for zex. Or worse, marry and enter captivity. Abraham Lincoln when defining slavery said it best. "You work, I eat".

 

[Gamisch]

100% this.

Kinda l blasphemous to say this here, but getting women is the easiest part of self improvement.

all it takes is the word " hi".

thats it.

but..that hi you say gotta have some serious weight behind it. The weight behind itcomes from your daily hard work. Being ripped , some cash to spare and dressed fresh will make your presence incredibly powerfull.

The reason why so many men don't date is because the KNOW they don't qualify..and they don't wanna work on it.

You could be lets say 32 y.o in a hopeless situation. By 35 you can be on top of the world (again?). But those 3 years will be gruesome and tough. No p00sy for Lord knows how long while still preparing to drown in p00sy...

Thats not for everyone.

I guess it’s a fair question. I know plenty of men without a job, look like sh1t, have no prospects, smoke and booze nonstop on their “disability” check, and are with an equally pathetic quality woman who they many times have 2-3 kids with that they can’t adequately support and who are destined to usually repeat their own parents’ sad cycle.

So no - if you just want sex you can find some lowlife somewhere to have it with - probably sub HB 4 range. But if you want decent to great women, yes it’s necessary. But women are a footnote in WHY you do the self-improvement. Which is shockingly something more and more men here seem not to grasp. You do this for yourself and YOUR life. Better quality women are just one of the fruits of those labors but can’t (and shouldn’t) be the goal.

 

[BaronOfHair]

So I will revise my statement and say:

"If a woman opens the door, and you do not walk in... that door closes pretty fast... however, she might open that door again, at a much later date, and if that happens it's not anything you did, but something going on with her. The man has no control of if and when this might happen."

And indirectly, you illuminate the fatal flaws with all this Red Pill nonsense: It's become a religion, who's scripture is immune to revision, even as further evidence roles in